The Tank Thread

[AHF]

Knock it off with the LeBron pics @NBASupes.

[KB21]

36 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

[MaceCase]

Gif of a disease ridden dying gunslinger?  Not ironic in the least.

[DBac]

Marvin Bagley, Jaren Jackson Jr, Wendell Carter, Miles Bridges all playing on ESPN right now. 

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

Gif of a disease ridden dying gunslinger?  Not ironic in the least.

Val Kilmer's best role

[KB21]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Val Kilmer's best role

Best movie of all time.

[Packfill]

4 hours ago, Watchman said:

Guess you have to choose...treadmilling or deadmilling.

I would take the 2017 Philly roster over the 2016 Hotlanta roster every time.  So would any rationale person.

[Diesel]

23 hours ago, AHF said:

Where do you get these numbers.  I'll just throw out one name.  Kyrie Irving.    Ring.  Done.

Every ring winner from the 80s to today's champion other than the 2000s Pistons (and every multiple champion) has drafted an MVP/Finals MVP talent in the lottery and grown their team from there.  Every one but one.

Again  only 1 player in 16 yrs.. and he wasn't the team star.... Top 4 picks.. how many have led to championships. 

 

[AHF]

You just quoted the key language directly above. Championship teams are built through the lottery.  They always have been.  The 2003-04 Pistons are the only exception for decades.  Nobody wins rings with a roster like we had last year.  Zero teams in the history of the NBA have won like that.  Even the Pistons were littered with high lottery picks like Chauncey, Rip and Rasheed - they were just exceptional for their failure to draft their own stud and build from there.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

You just quoted the key language directly above. Championship teams are built through the lottery.  They always have been.  The 2003-04 Pistons are the only exception for decades.  Nobody wins rings with a roster like we had last year.  Zero teams in the history of the NBA have won like that.  Even the Pistons were littered with high lottery picks like Chauncey, Rip and Rasheed - they were just exceptional for their failure to draft their own stud and build from there.

Just tell me how many teams that have tanked for high lottery picks have actually won a championship?

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Just tell me how many teams that have tanked for high lottery picks have actually won a championship?

AHF..  What you ignore is usually there is a culture built around winning a championship.  Talent just doesn't do it.  That's why Melo has never won one.   He's plenty talented... But without the culture it's not happening.   Moreover, NY last year with Porzingas, Melo, and Rose... those are all high lottery picks... couldn't sniff the playoffs.   You see it all the time.  N.O. has Davis, Boogie, and a whole host of lottery picks but they are no where close to winning a championship.  See, you just want to look at the makeup of the team and not the culture.   When you purposely build a losing culture, you can't easily recovery.  Why do you think Philly, Sactown, LAL, Orlando, Brooklyn, and others are constantly in the lottery but never in the championship conversation. 

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Just tell me how many teams that have tanked for high lottery picks have actually won a championship?

The two most recent ones are Cleveland and Golden State.

Cleveland tanked in the most shameless fashion.  Golden State did like we did - sold off good players who wouldn't be the right pieces to win big.  They outright strategically tanked to keep lottery picks but for the most part did like we are doing in trying to win but making sure the talent isn't good enough until you've drafted your core.

[rd79]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

The two most recent ones are Cleveland and Golden State.

Cleveland tanked in the most shameless fashion.  Golden State did like we did - sold off good players who wouldn't be the right pieces to win big.  They outright strategically tanked to keep lottery picks but for the most part did like we are doing in trying to win but making sure the talent isn't good enough until you've drafted your core.

It think he meant more like: How many made it and how many tried?

[NBASupes]

16 hours ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

The problem with Dennis is he plays street ball and not NBA basketball.  He fills up the stat sheet, but he doesn't understand how to set up the offense or to get his teammate an open shot.  He relies too heavily on his raw talent and speed instead of using fundamental basketball knowledge to create opportunities and this will hurt him later in his career when he loses half a step.  Heck, last night vs. the Pelicans, Nawlins knew to just sit back and wait for Dennis to drive and block his layup at the hoop.  The ball also spends too long in his hands at times.  Numerous instances of him dribbling around the block a few times, burning 8-10 seconds off the shot clock before forcing something to happen.  Literally, the majority of Schröder's game, is dribble around and drive.  This type of play is okay for a 6th man, but our starting PG needs to have a higher understanding of the game than what Dennis has shown so far.  He needs to learn how to use his teammates more and pick up fundamental basketball to create offense.  Also, he seems to have lost that dog on defense that he came into the league with.

The bigger issue I have with Dennis is consistency in terms of effort. The way he brings it v. a star PG isn't the way he brings it v. Jrue Holiday.  I don't think he plays streetball but he's not a true PG either but it's the only position he can play seeing that he is ball dominate. 

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

The two most recent ones are Cleveland and Golden State.

Cleveland tanked in the most shameless fashion.  Golden State did like we did - sold off good players who wouldn't be the right pieces to win big.  They outright strategically tanked to keep lottery picks but for the most part did like we are doing in trying to win but making sure the talent isn't good enough until you've drafted your core.

I don't think you can classify GS as tanking for a lottery pick to win a championship. They already had Steph and Klay when they traded Ellis, Brown, and Udoh for Bogut and Jackson.  Here's what is said of the move

Quote

Ellis has one more year left on his contract at $11 million with a player option for the same amount the following year. Ellis stressed to Warriors beat writer Marcus Thompson that the second year was a player option, reflecting his unhappiness with the organization. 

The reasons for Ellis to be unhappy are plentiful. How the organization handled his moped injury. How they drafted Curry in 2009 after telling him they wouldn't. How they've continued to lose and make poor decisions. His reported sexual harassment of a team employee likely also affects his thinking.

The Warriors essentially traded one-and-a-half seasons of Monta Ellis and at least two-and-a-half years of Udoh on his great rookie contract for two-and-a-half years of Bogut making between $12.1 million and $14.5 million a year and Jackson for a year-and-a-half making around $10 million a year. 

Kwame Brown is of no on-the-court importance to the deal as he was signed by the Warriors to a one-year deal and is injured for the rest of the season.

 

Missing Udoh

The Warriors did not want to give up on Ekpe Udoh but when he became necessary to get Bogut, they gave in. The slender shot-blocker is a difficult player to evaluate.

He's in his second year, will turn 25 soon and is averaging only 9.1 points and 6.4 rebounds per 36 minutes this year. However, the Warriors have been an absurd 20.4 points per 48 minutes better with him on the floor than off. 

Then they traded away Jackson for a first.  Another move to clear up cap space.   This is all while they had Steph.  Moreover, all of these moves were done under new Ownership... so you can't even claim that it was a plan to build from the owners to get Steph and Klay... Steph and Klay who were the backbone of their team were obtained by just being naturally sorry.. not tanking.

 

Cleveland.

If you're talking about tanking for Lebron.. that didn't end with a championship. 

[AHF]

GS openly admitted they tanked.  GS also rebuilt through the lottery by design for years.  Schlenk is expressly trying to replicate the environment that let they draft Curry, Klay and others.  Letting Baron Davis walk ala Sap was the start of all of that but they followed it up by getting rid of the rest of the key players from their playoff team.  Davis averaged 22, 5 and 8 for them and they dropped from a 49 win team into the 20's where they played for 3 of the next 4 seasons:  29, 26 and 23 wins.  During that time they drafted and Klay.  They then outright admit they tanked the next season by sitting healthy players for months ala the Suns to improve their draft position where they drafted Barnes and Green.  Kind of the core of their first championship team.  Bolt on a couple players via trade and FA and you have your rebuilt championship team after a few years of development.  They check all the boxes for me. 

Clevelend overtly tanked for LeBron and made the finals.  Then they overtly tanked to get the pieces to lure him back.  His big 3 partners with Wade and Bosh had gotten too old and a pair of #1 picks landed him what he thought would be his next big 3 with Irving and Love plus other picks he loved like TT.  It was an entire period of tank jobs broken up by LeBron first time with the team.

[Thomas]

So with the way it is going we will indeed have the possibility of grabbing Ayton, Bridges and or Allen in the first round. I understand there are a multitude of options with that very first pick. Just the same that is definitely a strong move forward for strengthening our ten man rotation. By the way Allen nailed seven threes in Duke's game last night in beating MSU. Anyway that gives us seven or eight guys on the roster that count and with big time talent at center and PF with Ayton and Collins if that is the pick. Really starting to warm up to this path though I have never enjoyed being on the losing end of individual games. Guess thats the point here in that the goal is not about a handful or more of extra wins this season but something much bigger down the road.  

[KB21]

14 minutes ago, Thomas said:

So with the way it is going we will indeed have the possibility of grabbing Ayton, Bridges and or Allen in the first round. I understand there are a multitude of options with that very first pick. Just the same that is definitely a strong move forward for strengthening our ten man rotation. By the way Allen nailed seven threes in Duke's game last night in beating MSU. Anyway that gives us seven or eight guys on the roster that count and with big time talent at center and PF with Ayton and Collins if that is the pick. Really starting to warm up to this path though I have never enjoyed being on the losing end of individual games. Guess thats the point here in that the goal is not about a handful or more of extra wins this season but something much bigger down the road.  

...way, way, way, way down the road after you take years to develop said prospects, and then have to overpay for them on their first contract (because the NBA doesn't have a true developmental league that allows teams to develop young, not ready for the NBA prospects without accruing contract time).  That is, if the prospects you get are actually good.

[Thomas]

Thinking Ayton will be pretty ready by year two. Physically he is as big or bigger than many NBA starting centers now and he is a kid. Collins is not way down the road himself. Feel we already have three starting caliber guys probably getting more consistent minutes together by late this year or next. Collins does need some weight and to fix his hands along with defense but we're seeing a lot from him already. Think those two would own the glass for us for years to come.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, Thomas said:

Thinking Ayton will be pretty ready by year two. Physically he is as big or bigger than many NBA starting centers now and he is a kid. Collins is not way down the road himself. Feel we already have three starting caliber guys probably getting more consistent minutes together by late this year or next. Collins does need some weight and to fix his hands along with defense but we're seeing a lot from him already. Think those two would own the glass for us for years to come.

Then how do you reconcile the fact that Ayton is a lazy ass who doesn't work hard and loafs when he isn't involved in the game/gives very little effort on defense?