The Tank Thread

[KB21]

Just now, AHF said:

Chicago shows hitting on lottery picks may take years but that it is absolutely the right approach.  Draft your cornerstones, build your team and win 6 rings.  Sounds a lot better than making the playoffs a ton but never having won a game beyond the second round.

So, you are equating drafting Michael Jordan to drafting one of the many "one and dones" who are not even remotely ready for the NBA with high picks?

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

So, you are equating drafting Michael Jordan to drafting one of the many "one and dones" who are not even remotely ready for the NBA with high picks?

 Chicago drafted two stars in the lottery.  They were the foundation for their championships.

Do not care if you are taking Moses Malone, Lebron, Etc. straight out of HS.  All the kids are coming out earlier now.  

I don't like the younger ages since the players are less marketable, less projectable and less ready but if the extra years meant something you'd pass on Doncic and take a 24 year old Euro.

The talent is what matters most.  Get the generational talent if you can whether one and done, overseas, two and done...whatever.

[BrazilianHawk]

12 minutes ago, StephenHawking said:

If you'd actually compared their stats before tonights game that would've been the case but since you don't care about anything I write and supposedly not stats I'm sure you'll bend it some way that it fits your agenda 

We are 12 or 13 games into the season and you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Fine. 

I do care about the things you (and all of the squawkers) write. I try to read it all, and I just happen to disagree with you. But right now you're looking like like [a crazy person]. Whatever.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, BrazilianHawk said:

We are 12 or 13 games into the season and you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Fine. 

I do care about the things you (and all of the squawkers) write. I try to read it all, and I just happen to disagree with you. But right now you're looking like [a crazy person]. Whatever.

Let's leave the politics to the political board.  Don't want the thread going downhill on this path.

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

 Chicago drafted two stars in the lottery.  They were the foundation for their championships.

Do not care if you are taking Moses Malone, Lebron, Etc. straight out of HS.  All the kids are coming out earlier now.  

I don't like the younger ages since the players are less marketable, less projectable and less ready but if the extra years meant something you'd pass on Doncic and take a 24 year old Euro.

The talent is what matters most.  Get the generational talent if you can whether one and done, overseas, two and done...whatever.

This is another flaw in the strategy.  It assumes that a generational talent is available in every draft.  It's not.  There hasn't been a generational talent drafted since Kevin Durant in 2007.

[BrazilianHawk]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

Let's leave the politics to the political board.  Don't want the thread going downhill on this path.

Sorry man. My bad.

[KB21]

Another flaw of the tanking philosophy because of the inherent nature of the draft these days is this idea that you do it to maintain financial flexibility.  Well, guess what.  When you get that top 3 pick from tanking, you have exactly 4 years of "financial flexibility" before you have to pay for that top 3 pick.  When that time comes, you will have to overpay for a player who more than likely has not proven he is worth the contract he will command.  See Andrew Wiggins's deal, which may just be the worst contract in the NBA right now.  You are going to have to pay someone for what you believe he will become, after he has already been in the league for 4 years.  When it comes time that you realize that said player isn't what you thought he was, you are stuck with a bad contract and no flexibility, so you go into the tank again and start the process over.  It's a vicious cycle that is the lottery treadmill.

[KB21]

I hope you pro tankers enjoy having Mark Jackson as the head coach next year.  

[Diesel]

22 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

Yeah I do, in a couple years. Go draft Doncic or one of the highly touted centers, sign a good player at the other position, add a couple pieces and we're competitive again. In the East it doesn't take that much talent to be a top 4 team.

 

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

 

 

Past 16 years... 0% of the top 4 picks have won their first championship with the team that drafted them...  16 years....  You can be as bad as you want to be.. but not Dwight, Not Bron, Not Melo, Not KD, Not Wall, Not Westbrook have won their first championship with the team that drafted them... SO.. you believe that we go out and pick up Donic and 3-4 years later we'd be getting the trophy???

I'm laughing.

 

[JTB]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I hope you pro tankers enjoy having Mark Jackson as the head coach next year.  

Lol you don’t even believe that ...

[Diesel]

24 minutes ago, AHF said:

 Chicago drafted two stars in the lottery.  They were the foundation for their championships.

Do not care if you are taking Moses Malone, Lebron, Etc. straight out of HS.  All the kids are coming out earlier now.  

I don't like the younger ages since the players are less marketable, less projectable and less ready but if the extra years meant something you'd pass on Doncic and take a 24 year old Euro.

The talent is what matters most.  Get the generational talent if you can whether one and done, overseas, two and done...whatever.

What's the probability of drafting the next Jordan??  Probably about the same or less than the probability of drafting the next Darko.

 

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, KB21 said:

This is another flaw in the strategy.  It assumes that a generational talent is available in every draft.  It's not.  There hasn't been a generational talent drafted since Kevin Durant in 2007.

NOOOOOO.  Stop misconstruing everything intentionally.  You are the only one who talks about guarantees.  THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES.  Is this clear now?  Can we stop with the BS about guarantees?  Please don't make me sit through another post that deliberately stated misleading and obviously incorrect things to try to score rhetorical points.  Are you going to start telling me that every champion only dipped into the lottery because of injury again?  Please stop with this and just stick to reality.

We've discussed repeatedly that not every draft has generational players.  That is reality.  You have to get lucky to be in a draft with a player like that and to be on the board when he is there and then be skilled enough to make the right pick.  Once you make the right pick it may still take years to mature into a championship roster.  Just look at past champs and you see this play out.

What do you don't see play out is a team like last year's Hawks that chooses to stay out of the lottery and then wins a ring.  Your Memphis type teams never ever win rings.

Your lottery dwelling teams include the champions and also include outcomes peaking at mediocre playoff teams, contenders who never quite get over the jump , abject failures (like the Kings who keep trying to compete when they obviously shouldn't), teams that draft poorly and leave themselves in extended periods of rebuilding, etc.  The range is big.

And because I'm not sure if this is clear yet THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES.

[BrazilianHawk]

3 minutes ago, JTB said:

Lol you don’t even believe that ...

That would be a pain. I use to like KB`s posts but not that one lol.

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Sorry man. My bad.

All good.  Just didn't want to see it start sniping.  Lots of low hanging fish for everyone if they want to get into a left vs right argument.  Take the to the political board.

We are all Hawks fans first on this board!

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

What's the probability of drafting the next Jordan??  Probably about the same or less than the probability of drafting the next Darko.

 

The key is the odds of drafting him are waaaayyyyy better than trading for him or signing him as a FA.  The odds for a particular pick are never going to be good in the abstract - it is only when the player pool and draft order is set can you start getting any kind of good odds.  Whenever that next Jordan comes, the rest of the league will be trying to overcome that talent gap for the bulk of his prime kind of like the East has been doing for years now with LeBron.  What were the odds of getting LeBron?  Low buy real if you were in the lottery.  Zero if you weren't.

[AHF]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Past 16 years... 0% of the top 4 picks have won their first championship with the team that drafted them...  16 years....  You can be as bad as you want to be.. but not Dwight, Not Bron, Not Melo, Not KD, Not Wall, Not Westbrook have won their first championship with the team that drafted them... SO.. you believe that we go out and pick up Donic and 3-4 years later we'd be getting the trophy???

I'm laughing.

 

Where do you get these numbers.  I'll just throw out one name.  Kyrie Irving.    Ring.  Done.

Every ring winner from the 80s to today's champion other than the 2000s Pistons (and every multiple champion) has drafted an MVP/Finals MVP talent in the lottery and grown their team from there.  Every one but one.

[BrazilianHawk]

It sucks to have to be beyond horrible for years to try finding that talent who will MAYBE, just maybe, help turn your team into a contender. It's almost a miracle to get the hands on a player like this.

And that's why I'd much rather cheer for a good but not great team even if I know their odds at the playoffs are slim to none. What fun is seeing your team lose game after game... And to even think this is actually OK? 

[KB21]

14 minutes ago, JTB said:

Lol you don’t even believe that ...

Oh, I absolutely believe that Bud will not be the coach next year.  This season will wear on him, and he will either take a break from coaching period, or he will jump at the first team that comes calling him.  

....and I believe Mark Jackson will be a candidate for two reason.  First, he has worked with Schlenk in the past with Golden State, and second, some idiot season ticket holder suggested last year that the Hawks should fire Bud and hire Mark Jackson.  Considering that Tony Ressler bought Travis's line of goods about tanking, it wouldn't surprise me if he buys into the season ticket holder's idea that Mark Jackson is actually a good coach.

[BrazilianHawk]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Oh, I absolutely believe that Bud will not be the coach next year.  This season will wear on him, and he will either take a break from coaching period, or he will jump at the first team that comes calling him.  

....and I believe Mark Jackson will be a candidate for two reason.  First, he has worked with Schlenk in the past with Golden State, and second, some idiot season ticket holder suggested last year that the Hawks should fire Bud and hire Mark Jackson.  Considering that Tony Ressler bought Travis's line of goods about tanking, it wouldn't surprise me if he buys into the season ticket holder's idea that Mark Jackson is actually a good coach.

Maybe the season ticket holder is also a tanker who really wants to Hawks to suck? That could explain it! 

[NBASupes]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

NOOOOOO.  Stop misconstruing everything intentionally.  You are the only one who talks about guarantees.  THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES.  Is this clear now?  Can we stop with the BS about guarantees?  Please don't make me sit through another post that deliberately stated misleading and obviously incorrect things to try to score rhetorical points.  Are you going to start telling me that every champion only dipped into the lottery because of injury again?  Please stop with this and just stick to reality.

We've discussed repeatedly that not every draft has generational players.  That is reality.  You have to get lucky to be in a draft with a player like that and to be on the board when he is there and then be skilled enough to make the right pick.  Once you make the right pick it may still take years to mature into a championship roster.  Just look at past champs and you see this play out.

What do you don't see play out is a team like last year's Hawks that chooses to stay out of the lottery and then wins a ring.  Your Memphis type teams never ever win rings.

Your lottery dwelling teams include the champions and also include outcomes peaking at mediocre playoff teams, contenders who never quite get over the jump , abject failures (like the Kings who keep trying to compete when they obviously shouldn't), teams that draft poorly and leave themselves in extended periods of rebuilding, etc.  The range is big.

And because I'm not sure if this is clear yet THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES.

He's trolling you and you are taking the bait.