The Tank Thread

[BrazilianHawk]

1 hour ago, hazer said:

"Coulda shoulda woulda" is a talking point of The Miserable Ones who are stuck in the past with no concept of the long view, not me. The scenario I predict is a "gonna", not a coulda-shoulda-woulda. Schlenkenholzer is telegraphing it. And those young stud players you mention will already have 2+ years under their belts, in Hawks University mind you, that 3rd year usually showing marked imrovement. The same years experience as the GrikFrik, Embiid (really still a rookie), KAT, Porzinger, Simmons, etc. do now. You can't just dismiss them because they'll only have 2 or 3 years experience just like you can't dismiss those names I've listed. 

And you can't just say they'll be great because they have played zero minutes in the NBA so far...

 

[BrazilianHawk]

8 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

This team really is retooling while remaining competitive. If we got rid of the 4 or so players that don't need to be on an NBA roster and replaced them with vets, we'd probably be .500. Most of the games we're playing we're relatively close in. If we hit on our draft picks we'll only be a year or two from making the playoffs. The east is that bad.

 

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Man, it seems to me you're in denial.

 

How can you say a 2-11 team is "competitive"? And it's not a retooling, really.

 

Dead last in the East which is "that bad" (your words). 29th in the NBA only because Dirk's play has fallen off a cliff. Not competitive, not in my book.

[nathan2331]

Man, it looks to me you're in denial.

 

How can you say a 2-11 team is "competitive"? And it's not a retooling, really.

That comment was a bit sarcastic, but we're not like the 76ers when they started their tank. We at least play with some purpose, even if we don't have the talent to properly compete. I'm sold on our project seeing the way Dennis, Prince and Collins are playing. Collins looks like an absolute beast, I don't know how he fell to us. He'll be an all-star once he figures out defending in the NBA and he expands his offense.

 

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[KB21]

9 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

This team really is retooling while remaining competitive. If we got rid of the 4 or so players that don't need to be on an NBA roster and replaced them with vets, we'd probably be .500. Most of the games we're playing we're relatively close in. If we hit on our draft picks we'll only be a year or two from making the playoffs. The east is that bad.

 

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This team is 2-11 and will be lucky to win 10 games this season.  That's not being competitive.  That's outright sucking at a monumental level.  It's going to take YEARS to dig out of this hole.  

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

That comment was a bit sarcastic, but we're not like the 76ers when they started their tank. We at least play with some purpose, even if we don't have the talent to properly compete. I'm sold on our project seeing the way Dennis, Prince and Collins are playing. Collins looks like an absolute beast, I don't know how he fell to us. He'll be an all-star once he figures out defending in the NBA and he expands his offense.

 

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You are right.  Philadelphia was 5-8 during their first 13 games of their first tank year.  That's better than 2-11.

[KB21]

12 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

There's different ways to win a championship. After losing Horford for nothing, our best bet was to move on and start rebuilding. We've done very well drafting Collins and Prince, if we add a couple more players we'll be in the playoffs.

 

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So, we are somehow going to eliminate the developmental process these players will have to go through and make the playoffs after just adding a couple of more players?  When is the last time a team full of guys in their first 3 years of the NBA made the playoffs?

[BrazilianHawk]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

That comment was a bit sarcastic, but we're not like the 76ers when they started their tank. We at least play with some purpose, even if we don't have the talent to properly compete. I'm sold on our project seeing the way Dennis, Prince and Collins are playing. Collins looks like an absolute beast, I don't know how he fell to us. He'll be an all-star once he figures out defending in the NBA and he expands his offense.

 

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I agree with some of this. But Dennis was #17, Prince was #12 and Collins was #19. If they are that good, why are the Hawks tanking the season? They could just keep picking in that 10-20 range and the team would be OK. It's much easier to add pieces when you have a good team. There was no need to gut the team or tank the season.

[nathan2331]

This team is 2-11 and will be lucky to win 10 games this season.  That's not being competitive.  That's outright sucking at a monumental level.  It's going to take YEARS to dig out of this hole.  

Are you watching the games? We're not that far off. I'm not saying we're good today by any stretch of the imagination, but how much better than us are the Pistons who are currently second in the East? The Magic are 7-5 and are currently 3rd. We could be better than those teams if we wanted to but what good would it be if we're still inferior to the Celtics or Cavs?

 

This season is going the way should want it. We're losing games without getting blown out, and our young players are getting experience. We're still playing Hawks basketball, we just have bad players trying to play it. I'm tired never being a real contender, we needed better talent on this team. If we get the draft pick right, we'll be fine.

 

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[AHF]

51 minutes ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Hmmm. Yes?

I mean, if you think Marvin, Acie, Shelden and Chillz were the foundation of that team. You probably know better than I do that the foundation of that team was built by Ferry, and not by the draft.

 

I never talked "championship". I just want to have a good team to cheer for. And I couldn't care less about Timmy. Good teams are made of irreplaceable players like 4-time All-Star Paul Millsap (you know, the kind of player we have... none?).

Schlenk set this franchise 5 years back (at the very least). It could be a decade (or more) for us to see this franchise getting to the ECF again.

 

Good teams have a shot at winning something. Crappy teams... yeah.

I like Sap.  Quality player and quality person.  A guy you feel good rooting for who brings his best every night.

But irreplaceable?  He isn't he best player on Denver's team and he is putting up 15.5 ppg on 44.5% FG% and 6.5 RPG.  Horford would be embarrassed by those rebounding numbers.  Jokic is the only irreplacable player on that roster.

The Hawks under Ferry (including their star season when he was on the sidelines) won 57.7% of their games.  Take out that one magical month of January and the Ferry era won 53.6%.  They won 44.8% of their playoff games.  Won two series, lost three series.

I'm not optimistic that resigning Sap and keeping Howard would have put us in the ECF or made us contenders at any point in time.  If you are content simply making the playoffs, then I can understand the perspective that we won't be there for the next couple years and why you wouldn't like that given our solid but not guaranteed odds of continuing to make the playoffs the next couple years by simply turning the crank on our aging roster.

[nathan2331]

I agree with some of this. But Dennis was #17, Prince was #12 and Collins was #19. If they are that good, why are the Hawks tanking the season? They could just keep picking in that 10-20 range and the team would be OK. It's much easier to add pieces when you have a good team. There was no need to gut the team or tank the season.

Imagine what we could do with a top 3 player. Collins I think would look good wherever he would've ended up, for the life of me I don't understand how we got him at #19. But both Dennis and Prince I think needed Coach Bud to get to where they are now. So, if we were to acquire players with even bigger potential through the draft​, imagine what they could become. Maybe sign some other players that haven't worked out like Hezonja or Okafor, coach them up, and reap the rewards.

 

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[AHF]

28 minutes ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Yawn.

 

People say "we're doing this because we want a championship!"

So wake me up when these guys have won a ring with their current franchises.

Wake up!  A bunch of Golden State and Cleveland lottery picks won championships the last few years after both finishing 13th in their division in the same year while rebuilding.  They just happen to be vets now and no longer the high potential youngsters they used to be.

If your point is that youngsters don't win rings immediately, I totally agree.  It takes a while to develop those players and to round the right team around them.  Not many young lottery studs are NBA Finals MVPs and champions in their first few years like Dwyane Wade or Tim Duncan.  It is more typical to take closer to a decade to get good and then great like MJ, Hakeem, Isiah, Pierce, Dirk, etc.

[BrazilianHawk]

14 minutes ago, AHF said:

I like Sap.  Quality player and quality person.  A guy you feel good rooting for who brings his best every night.

But irreplaceable?  He isn't he best player on Denver's team and he is putting up 15.5 ppg on 44.5% FG% and 6.5 RPG.  Horford would be embarrassed by those rebounding numbers.  Jokic is the only irreplacable player on that roster.

The Hawks under Ferry (including their star season when he was on the sidelines) won 57.7% of their games games.  Take out that one magical month of January and the Ferry era was a .53.6%.  They won 44.8% of their playoff games.

I'm not optimistic that resigning Sap and keeping Howard would have put us in the ECF or made us contenders at any point in time.  If you are content simply making the playoffs, then I can understand the perspective that we won't be there for the next couple years and why you wouldn't like that given our solid but not guaranteed odds of continuing to make the playoffs the next couple years by simply turning the crank on our aging roster.

Sap was irrepleaceble to us. Wasn't he? Well, I guess Dedmon and rook Collins aren't replacing him anyway, anytime soon. The fact he's not the best player in Denver (for now) is what makes them a 50+ win franchise for the foreseeable future. Will they win a ring? Hardly.

But there are 30 teams in this league and only one can win it all. And even if the Hawks miraculously made it to the Finals... well all I can say is #RememberSacTown. There are a whole lot of franchises the NBA would like to win it all instead of the Hawks. Now, am I saying the NBA is rigged? Not at all. Well, maybe just a little bit. In the Finals there are two really good teams playing for the championship, and a couple timely bad calls in some games could decide who gets the rings and who doesn't. I wouldn't think the Hawks would be favored in any way should they reach the Finals.

All in all, I just want to enjoy watching my team and not be disgusted by brilliant "strategies" from our GM.

I just want to have a good team to cheer for. And I don't have it right now. Hell, I'm probably not having it for the next 5 years. So of course I'm salty and thinking the team is headed for disaster. We've been down that road before.

 

(EDIT) Just to address the Howard situation, I agree he wasn't a good fit and he and Millsap got in each other's way plenty of times. Just a bad fit, and we should get rid of him. I just think we could have gotten more for him.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Sap was irrepleaceble to us. Wasn't he? Well, I guess Dedmon and rook Collins aren't replacing him anyway. The fact he's not the best player in Denver (for now) is what makes them a 50+ win franchise for the foreseeable future. Will they win a ring? Hardly.

But there are 30 teams in this league and only one can win it all. And even if the Hawks miraculously made it to the Finals... well all I can say is #RememberSacTown. There are a whole lot of franchises the NBA would like to win it all instead of the Hawks. Now, am I saying the NBA is rigged? Not at all. Well, maybe just a little bit. In the Finals there are two really good teams playing for the championship, and a couple timely bad calls in some games could decide who gets the rings and who doesn't. I wouldn't think the Hawks would be favored in any way should they reach the Finals.

All in all, I just want to enjoy watching my team and not be disgusted by brilliant "strategies" from our GM.

I just want to have a good team to cheer for. And I don't have it right now. Hell, I'm probably not having it for the next 5 years. So of course I'm salty and thinking the team is headed for disaster. We've been down that road before.

We've been down the road of just reupping an old core with declining results too.  That can end up in the lottery by accident but with a bloated payroll and a lack of young talent.

[High5]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

This team is 2-11 and will be lucky to win 10 games this season.  That's not being competitive.  That's outright sucking at a monumental level.  It's going to take YEARS to dig out of this hole.  

You two are so dramatic. We're one above average player away from being right back in the playoff race. The mediocrity you crave is quite easy to achieve. The rest of us just don't want that to be the end result anymore. 

Now this is the part where you talk about how the Kings have sucked for years so we will too, you ignore plain facts about the draft history of championship teams, and then you take another shot at Andrew Wiggins. And despite your endless rants about how all top 3 picks are toxic, franchise-crippling busts, you seem really excited for the chance to draft Doncic. Rinse and repeat. 

[hazer]

50 minutes ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Yawn.

 

People say "we're doing this because we want a championship!"

So wake me up when these guys have won a ring with their current franchises.

Whoa, whoa, tap the brakes there Christian Fittipaldi. We're discussing getting back to the playoffs in 2-3 years 

Edited November 13, 2017 by hazer

[BrazilianHawk]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

Wake up!  A bunch of Golden State and Cleveland lottery picks won championships the last few years after both finishing 13th in their division in the same year while rebuilding.  They just happen to be vets now and no longer the high potential youngsters they used to be.

If your point is that youngsters don't win rings immediately, I totally agree.  It takes a while to develop those players and to round the right team around them.  Not many young lottery studs are NBA Finals MVPs and champions in their first few years like Dwyane Wade or Tim Duncan.  It is more typical to take closer to a decade to get good and then great like MJ, Hakeem, Isiah, Pierce, Dirk, etc.

For every Steph (#7) there are plenty of Thabeets (#2), Tyrekes (#4) and Johnny Flynns (#5).

For every Klay (#11) there are plenty of Derrick Williams (#2), Kanters (#3), Veselys (#6), Biyombos (#7), Brandon Knights (#8) and Fredettes (#10).

 

I think the best draft "strategy" is to just get lucky. And you don't need to tank for that. The Atlanta Hawks were never successful in getting lucky. Well, maybe with Collins this year, time will tell. I just don't think it's supposed to work that way. But whatever, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[hazer]

57 minutes ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Exactly! They will be way better than the Hawks and will have won a grand total of ZERO championships.

And you suggest using their blueprint, doing the very same things the Hawks have been doing for a decade with a grand total of ZERO championships? No. And that's why Schlenkenholzer jumped off that treadmill, lest we continue battling those teams for 2nd round exits for the next decade.

[BrazilianHawk]

9 minutes ago, hazer said:

Whoa, whoa, tap the brakes there Christian Fittipaldi. We're discussing getting back to the playoffs in 2-3 years 

What? If we wanted to just get in the playoffs, all we had to do was resign Paul Millsap.

[hazer]

2 minutes ago, BrazilianHawk said:

What? If we wanted to just get in the playoffs, all we had to do was resign Paul Millsap.

This guy don't get it

[StephenHawking]

It seems like you two guys have completely different imagination of how the majority  thinks tanking has to be done than it is in reality. 

People aren't saying, "we bottom out for a year and next year we win a championship" 

People aren't thinking "Okc, Magic and in example the Wolves did a good job" 

No reality is tanking isn't only about bottoming out and drafting a franchise player. Its about the whole management around it. To make that team competitive through adding fitting pieces each year while staying as flexible as possible. 

All those teams you mentioned made faults at one moment in time. 

Wolves and Magic completely overpaying trash players. Okc not recognising talent and doing a poor job at trading. 

Tanking isn't fulfilled after the draft. 

A championship team only rises from the bottom when the gm does a exceptional well job for many years. 

The Hawks made an astonishing amount of faults before the Schlenk era which led to that tank job they have to do now. 

If the wilcox would've done a better job the tank would've been much lighter. We would've had a greater return for Sap and Horford. Would've never overpayed for Howard and Baze and so on.