The Tank Thread

[MaceCase]

51 minutes ago, AHF said:

You value making the playoffs and consider that to be the most important aspect of a team.  You were upset because we didn't resign all the pieces of our 43-39 team last season to put us in position to repeat that type of record (with our negative point differential last season).  The Sixers are on pace to make the playoffs with the same record we had last season and have lots of players with significant room to grow and develop.

TBQH, the Hawks should have stuck it out like the Grizzlies.  It would have avoided a lot of headaches on this board because the team would not have made an indication of tanking yet still find its way to the 4th worst record.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, MaceCase said:

TBQH, the Hawks should have stuck it out like the Grizzlies.  It would have avoided a lot of headaches on this board because the team would not have made an indication of tanking yet still find its way to the 4th worst record.

We were definitely on that path.  Just have to kick the can a little bit down the road.

[Buzzard]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't see us on the same path but I do see them at least on the path to consistent playoff appearances for the foreseeable future at this point.  Going back to 2002-03 takes you back through several administrations that weren't tanking (that includes 5 years with Allen Iverson, for example) but just couldn't build a good enough team.  They were a lot more like us last season than like the team that drafted Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid.

I love Simmons and hope with everything we get someone like him talent wise in the next two drafts. I hope for it; but I am not counting on it. I think if Simmons stays healthy, he going to be a Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, type player for this generation. I don't see him replacing Jordon, but I can see him pushing everyone else that has played guard in the modern era.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

I agree with most of what you have written.  A few points that I would quibble over and some others that I totally agree on:

• Timeline will vary based on drafting.  5-8 years may be overstating things if we hit big but it could end up working out that way.  It wasn't until Michael Jordan's 4th year that the Bulls had a winning record and that was after 3 rebuilding seasons.  That said, they did make the playoffs his first three seasons (in an era where it was easier to make it with a losing record) so it also depends on what is going on with the other teams in the conference.  Right now a .500 record has you as the #6 seed in the West.
• We are definitely not unique in our inability to attract elite free agents.  Lots of teams are actually in our position.  
• Agree on none of our current players being untouchable.  Also agree that Collins is the most valuable of our players based on what we have seen to date.
• Agree that we are making at least two trips to the lottery.
• Agree on Bud being uncertain if he will be here at the end of our rebuilding.  He is already one of the more senior coaches in the East and turnover tends to happen over time and especially in rebuilding situations.  How he and Schlenk work together is important and TBD.
• Agree that player evaluation is key.  No question at all on this.  Pete Babcock would doom this team for eternity if he was the GM.  Collins was a great start for Schlenk.  Hope to see him keep it up.

All that said, I don't believe in Schlenk.  I believe in Schlenk about as much as I believe that my post belongs in this thread.    Timeline could be very long.   Back in Jordan's day, players played til their Junior and Senior year.   These one and day make it rough for a GM to evaluate talent.. and then if they have talent, it still has to be developed and placed in the right situation.   Look at KAT, Cousins, and Davis.  All three of these guys are HOF like talents... but look how long it's taken for them to go anywhere.    Collins is a good piece... but right now, he's the only good piece that we have that can go with any scheme. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

You value making the playoffs and consider that to be the most important aspect of a team.  You were upset because we didn't resign all the pieces of our 43-39 team last season to put us in position to repeat that type of record (with our negative point differential last season).  The Sixers are on pace to make the playoffs with the same record we had last season and have lots of players with significant room to grow and develop.

I don't think it's about making the playoffs and keeping everybody.  It's more about getting value for the players that you lost.   We firesold everything and took some losses and fans are trying to make it seem like gains.  Real GMs know how to retool instead of start over.  We could have traded for potential and keep up a winning formulation instead of starting all the way over with nothing. 

[KB21]

23 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't think it's about making the playoffs and keeping everybody.  It's more about getting value for the players that you lost.   We firesold everything and took some losses and fans are trying to make it seem like gains.  Real GMs know how to retool instead of start over.  We could have traded for potential and keep up a winning formulation instead of starting all the way over with nothing. 

Yep.

I personally feel Sam Hinkie should be banned from basketball for what he did to Philly.

[AHF]

29 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't think it's about making the playoffs and keeping everybody.  It's more about getting value for the players that you lost.   We firesold everything and took some losses and fans are trying to make it seem like gains.  Real GMs know how to retool instead of start over.  We could have traded for potential and keep up a winning formulation instead of starting all the way over with nothing. 

You can definitely second guess not unloading Horf and Sap for value when they were under contract like we did with Teague.  No argument that it is painful to lose those guys without any return.  That I lay at the feet of Budcox along with Bazemore's contract. 

You know I'm not a fan of the Dwight trade so while I don't value him the same as you I do share your dislike for that deal.

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

You can definitely second guess not unloading Horf and Sap for value when they were under contract like we did with Teague.  No argument that it is painful to lose those guys without any return.  That I lay at the feet of Budcox along with Bazemore's contract. 

You know I'm not a fan of the Dwight trade so while I don't value him the same as you I do share your dislike for that deal.

I like Dwight Howard but IF we were going to trade him, let's do it right.   That's been my whole argument.  I didn't have a problem trading him but trading him in a losing trade and then creating a fake narrative about it is below our character as a fanbase and an organization.  Just call a thing a thing.. we f----- up.   Then we can move on. 

I think people are so quick to champion the moves of Schlenk that they fail to see his plan.  I wholeheartedly believe that Baze and Dennis would have been traded along with Howard but he couldn't find any takers.   Especially not after the thuggery.  Still, I've seen GMing done wrong in Atlanta.  IN Atlanta, Starting all the way over never wins.  May work in GS but that's there, not here.  We have to have something to attract even middling FAs. 

 

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I like Dwight Howard but IF we were going to trade him, let's do it right.   That's been my whole argument.  I didn't have a problem trading him but trading him in a losing trade and then creating a fake narrative about it is below our character as a fanbase and an organization.  Just call a thing a thing.. we f----- up.   Then we can move on. 

I think people are so quick to champion the moves of Schlenk that they fail to see his plan.  I wholeheartedly believe that Baze and Dennis would have been traded along with Howard but he couldn't find any takers.   Especially not after the thuggery.  Still, I've seen GMing done wrong in Atlanta.  IN Atlanta, Starting all the way over never wins.  May work in GS but that's there, not here.  We have to have something to attract even middling FAs. 

 

Does it really work in GS?  People like to ignore the 17 years GS had prior to drafting Curry.  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, noble said:

What I don't get is what people thought could and would actually happen. I mean we had a roster that was slowly getting worse, we couldn't keep the talent we had, and we couldn't get high quality talent in. I agree this might take a few years, it wasn't like we were contending for a ring anyway. I get the idea of morale and such, but if there is a clear path the first year or 2 shouldn't be so heartbreaking for players and staff. They know what the road forward is and have a clear understanding of the intent. Now if it goes beyond 3 or 4 years, I can see the morale becoming an issue, but I just don't see it now.

I can buy the idea of 2 or so years in the lottery, completely there in my head. No illusions otherwise. But to say this is a 5 or 6 year thing, eh, not there.

Player evaluation is the key to every team no matter where they are in the pecking order. It is about finding the best pieces to accomplish what you want.

I'll roll with it for a while, and I can accept it. I want to see a ring for the Hawks before I die. Maybe this path works, maybe it doesn't. What I do know is we weren't sniffing one the road we were on.

Just for perspective . . . Current playoff droughts

• Minnesota:  13 years . . . currently 16 - 12.  Looks like it will be broken this season. 
• Sacramento:  11 years . . . currently 9 - 18, and looking at year 12 of not making the playoffs
• Phoenix:  7 years . . . currently 9 - 20.  Potential All-NBA player in Booker.  Not much else.
• Philadelphia:  5 years . . . currently 14 - 13. Has amassed very good young talent. Learning how to win. Borderline playoff team.
• Orlando:  5 years . . . currently 11 - 17.  Started out great, but injuries have killed them.  No playoffs.
• LA Lakers:  4 years . . . currently 10 - 16.  Outside shot at making the playoffs, though they'll have to come together quick.
• Denver:  4 years . . . currently 15 - 12.  The most balanced team in the league.  Should make the playoffs as a low seed.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Just for perspective . . . Current playoff droughts

• Minnesota:  13 years . . . currently 16 - 12.  Looks like it will be broken this season. 
• Sacramento:  11 years . . . currently 9 - 18, and looking at year 12 of not making the playoffs
• Phoenix:  7 years . . . currently 9 - 20.  Potential All-NBA player in Booker.  Not much else.
• Philadelphia:  5 years . . . currently 14 - 13. Has amassed very good young talent. Learning how to win. Borderline playoff team.
• Orlando:  5 years . . . currently 11 - 17.  Started out great, but injuries have killed them.  No playoffs.
• LA Lakers:  4 years . . . currently 10 - 16.  Outside shot at making the playoffs, though they'll have to come together quick.
• Denver:  4 years . . . currently 15 - 12.  The most balanced team in the league.  Should make the playoffs as a low seed.

I knew I forgot a team

• NY Knicks:  4 years . . . currently 14 - 13.  Has a potential superstar in KP. Not much else. Possible low seed playoff team.

So we're re-setting . . to possibly get back to 2016 level in 4 years . . with the hope of reaching greater heights, championship heights, in 7 - 8 years?

If any current Hawk is on the team at that time, that means they're a significant player getting paid a boatload of money.

So maybe that's a better question.  Who from this current team is on the Hawks in 7 - 8 years, when we're possibly a championship level team?

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I knew I forgot a team

• NY Knicks:  4 years . . . currently 14 - 13.  Has a potential superstar in KP. Not much else. Possible low seed playoff team.

So we're re-setting . . to possibly get back to 2016 level in 4 years . . with the hope of reaching greater heights, championship heights, in 7 - 8 years?

If any current Hawk is on the team at that time, that means they're a significant player getting paid a boatload of money.

So maybe that's a better question.  Who from this current team is on the Hawks in 7 - 8 years, when we're possibly a championship level team?

The only two that I can imagine will be on that team are John Collins and maybe Taurean Prince.  I don't see anyone else who will be with the team when it is good again.

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

I guess that's what happens when your GM can't draft properly and the prospects aren't that great. Our GM would have to be an idiot to mess up this year.

 

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

 

 

No.  

That's just the nature of drafting in the lottery, which some of you are willing to sacrifice the next 5 years to do.

[nathan2331]

 

 

Hindsight is 20/20. 

In the 2004 draft, he was berated for drafting Josh SMITH not Josh Childress.   CHildress led Standford to 26-2 or something like that and that pick was applauded.  In the 2005 draft, Many people were on the Marvin Williams train.  IN 2006, he explained that there were some undisclosed injuries (brandon roy) and there was a need for a big. 

 

Well, for me personally Josh Smith is the reason I'm a Hawks fan and I've never seen the star quality in Marvin, but I'm younger fan so I'm not going to pretend I watched him in college. Hindsight is indeed 20/20, but that doesn't mean foresight is useless. I do believe we can turn it around quickly, we just need to commit to being trash for one season. We've got a foundation to work with most tanking teams don't have. If we didn't have garbage men playing rotational minutes we'd look a bit better. We're competitive in most of the games we play in, and the East besides Cleveland and Boston looks as bad as ever.

 

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

 

 

[GThawks3]

11 hours ago, KB21 said:

No.  

That's just the nature of drafting in the lottery, which some of you are willing to sacrifice the next 5 years to do.

Stop predicting the future and acting like it’s 100% when in reality you have no clue.

[KB21]

14 minutes ago, GThawks3 said:

Stop predicting the future and acting like it’s 100% when in reality you have no clue.

Then tell me what team went this route and was able to build a championship contender within 1-2 years?

It took OKC 4 years to become a playoff caliber team.  It has taken Philly 5 years to become a lower level playoff caliber team.  It took Golden State 5 years to build their team, and they didn't completely blow their team to the bottom of the standings.  

[GThawks3]

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Then tell me what team went this route and was able to build a championship contender within 1-2 years?

It took OKC 4 years to become a playoff caliber team.  It has taken Philly 5 years to become a lower level playoff caliber team.  It took Golden State 5 years to build their team, and they didn't completely blow their team to the bottom of the standings.  

You said we’ll be a lottery team for the next 5 years meaning non playoff team not contender. 

We have Schröder, Prince and Collins to build with. If we draft a Marvin over  a Paul or a Sheldon Williams then you’re right on the timeline but it’s impossible to predict.

If we do hit on the next two drafts and Collins/Prince keep progressing than I think we can be a playoff team in 2-3 years. Yes I know easier said than done.

[High5]

It's interesting that despite all of the doom and gloom over our upcoming picks and our ability to "get back" to where we were, with Schlenk's first selection he already drafted a player who could be better than our previous best player in a couple of seasons. (comparing ~22 year old Collins to ~34 year old Sap) But let's assume the worst instead.

[Buzzard]

12 hours ago, KB21 said:

No.  

That's just the nature of drafting in the lottery, which some of you are willing to sacrifice the next 5 years to do.

OKC, 3rd season they were in the playoffs with Durant.

Bulls the very same season they were in the playoffs with Jordon

Celtics, 4th season they were in the playoffs with Pierce

Miami Heat, the following year they were in the playoffs with Wade.

Dallas Mavericks, 3rd season they were in the playoffs with Dirk

Detroit Pistons three seasons after drafting Isaiah Thomas

There are many more examples of this; but I think what is obvious is you almost certainly have to draft that player to be a contender. OKC had their chances with Durant.

Kevin Durant, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neil, and Kevin Garnet are players I can think of who were the best players on the championship team they did not get drafted by. But everyone of these players went to teams that had a hall of fame franchise player already on them. Kobe was traded the day he was picked; in case you want to go there.

Do you really think a great hall of fame free agent is going to want to play for us with Schröder and an aging Millsap as our best players? We were done once Horford walked; as Millsap was not going to keep playing at the same level for much longer.

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Buzzard

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

OKC, 3rd season they were in the playoffs with Durant.

Bulls the very same season they were in the playoffs with Jordon

Celtics, 4th season they were in the playoffs with Pierce

Miami Heat, the following year they were in the playoffs with Wade.

Dallas Mavericks, 3rd season they were in the playoffs with Dirk

Detroit Pistons three seasons after drafting Isaiah Thomas

There are many more examples of this; but I think what is obvious is you almost certainly have to draft that player to be a contender. OKC had their chances with Durant.

Kevin Durant, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neil, and Kevin Garnet are players I can think of who were the best players on the championship team they did not get drafted by. But everyone of these players went to teams that had a hall of fame franchise player already on them. Kobe was traded the day he was picked; in case you want to go there.

Do you really think a great hall of fame free agent is going to want to play for us with Schröder and an aging Millsap as our best players? We were done once  Horford walked; as Millsap was not going to keep playing at the same level for much longer.

 

Of those teams, only OKC tanked their roster out.