The Tank Thread

[Diesel]

As I thought,  There is nobody that we are truly targetting.  Because they all have flaws. Just getting rid of everybody to get rid of everybody and get a high pick.  Sounds Babcockish. 

[Wurider05]

This is why things are so frustrating. he have a decent squad and of all the teams that are 'tanking" we are the one team that could use the top pick the most.  We are a player or 2 from being in the playoffs and I would to as far to say that if this same squad comes back next year we could contend for the 7 or 8th spot. Of the 45 games that we have lost how many would you say that we were in or could have won 20-25? Even at the low end of the spectrum of 20 that would put us with 40 wins, which would be more wins than everyone in the East except Boston and Toronto.  Just winning 15 of the 45 losses would have us in the playoffs. We a dominant scorer who can light it up. even with our current roster I see more upside that Sacramento, Orlando, Dallas, Phoenix. or Brooklyn. These teams seem to have lottery picks every season and are still garbage. We are a step above those teams and with a good solid pick we wont be back in the lottery next year due to our record but rather through a pick we have acquired in a trade. Our lucky break probably was John Collins so we need to build on that. We  a competitive squad, we have good draft picks, we got  good young talent, cap space, and Bud. The world is ours and that is why I don't feel that we will be a losing team. They better not open the new Phillips Arena with a projected 20 win team. 

 

 

[Sothron]

16 hours ago, Diesel said:

Without it's own Lottery players = Lakers, Pistons, to start. 

 

Wasn't Thomas a pretty high draft pick? Like #3 that year or something? Those Bad Boy teams don't win back to back titles without their HOF point guard.

[KB21]

37 minutes ago, Wurider05 said:

This is why things are so frustrating. he have a decent squad and of all the teams that are 'tanking" we are the one team that could use the top pick the most.  We are a player or 2 from being in the playoffs and I would to as far to say that if this same squad comes back next year we could contend for the 7 or 8th spot. Of the 45 games that we have lost how many would you say that we were in or could have won 20-25? Even at the low end of the spectrum of 20 that would put us with 40 wins, which would be more wins than everyone in the East except Boston and Toronto.  Just winning 15 of the 45 losses would have us in the playoffs. We a dominant scorer who can light it up. even with our current roster I see more upside that Sacramento, Orlando, Dallas, Phoenix. or Brooklyn. These teams seem to have lottery picks every season and are still garbage. We are a step above those teams and with a good solid pick we wont be back in the lottery next year due to our record but rather through a pick we have acquired in a trade. Our lucky break probably was John Collins so we need to build on that. We  a competitive squad, we have good draft picks, we got  good young talent, cap space, and Bud. The world is ours and that is why I don't feel that we will be a losing team. They better not open the new Phillips Arena with a projected 20 win team. 

 

 

OK.  I almost spit my coffee out laughing at this.  

This team is terrible.  There is no way this team would ever make the playoffs if it came back intact.  There is one, maybe two players on this entire team that will still be here when it is good again in 5 plus years.

You are going to get what you want.  The Atlanta Hawks are going to have multiple lottery picks over the next few years.  It won't lead to wins, but you will have those precious lottery picks.

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, KB21 said:

OK.  I almost spit my coffee out laughing at this.  

This team is terrible.  There is no way this team would ever make the playoffs if it came back intact.  There is one, maybe two players on this entire team that will still be here when it is good again in 5 plus years.

You are going to get what you want.  The Atlanta Hawks are going to have multiple lottery picks over the next few years.  It won't lead to wins, but you will have those precious lottery picks.

In your previous post, didn't you feel that keeping Millsap would have made us a playoff contender?  If not, why would you advocate keeping him if we were going to be a lottery team anyway with him on the roster?

[davis171]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

As I thought,  There is nobody that we are truly targetting.  Because they all have flaws. Just getting rid of everybody to get rid of everybody and get a high pick.  Sounds Babcockish. 

What exactly did Schlenk get rid of besides over paying a PF that may have helped compete for an 8 seed and would have had 0 traded value because of the size of the contract? Signing Sap would have negated our opportunity to hit FA this off-season and see if we can find a Paul Millsap for 10 million a DMC for 2.5 million like Ferry did.  

Edited March 8, 2018 by davis171

[AHF]

12 hours ago, KB21 said:

Young is a high usage player for Oklahoma because he has to be.  When he played in the EYBL this past summer on the same team as Michael Porter Jr, Trae wasn't this ball dominant, high usage player.  

He didn't have to be.  He had offers from schools where he would have been one of a number of highly talented players.  He chose a roster where he would inevitably be the ball dominating option.  

I don't credit Pete Maravich like a lot of people do for his amazing stats given his obvious preference for this style of play.  I worry that it is Young's preference given that ball domination was his choice for college.

[AHF]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

As I thought,  There is nobody that we are truly targetting.  Because they all have flaws. Just getting rid of everybody to get rid of everybody and get a high pick.  Sounds Babcockish. 

What?  You are talking about posters on the board saying who they like if we don't have a top pick.

I am pretty sure Bud has a poster of Doncic on his wall with a big red circle around it.  I think Schlenk would likely consider only Doncic or Ayton depending on his view of them and how he wants to build.  It would surprise me if he didn't have a target picked out at this point.

The bigger question is whether we will be on the board when that target is available and, if not, where we go from there.

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

Wasn't Thomas a pretty high draft pick? Like #3 that year or something? Those Bad Boy teams don't win back to back titles without their HOF point guard.

He isn't talking about the repeat champion Pistons.  He is talking about the one-time champion Pistons with Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, etc.  Obviously the multiple champion Pistons were build around a high lottery pick (#2 overall).

[hazer]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

I am pretty sure Bud has a poster of Doncic on his wall with a big red circle around it.  I think Schlenk would likely consider only Doncic or Ayton depending on his view of them and how he wants to build.  It would surprise me if he didn't have a target picked out at this point.

I am pretty sure that Schlenkholzer BOTH have Doncic wallpaper on their laptops, tablets, and iPhones. Donciccio is who they are targeting. Fits the system perfectly, possibly the greatest Euro prospect in history, and can play the 1, 2, or 3. Smart enough to be taught Korver+ level of D via Hawks U. Don’t scoff, Korver turbo-hustled his way to more blocks than Greg Monroe at his peak. Yup, look that up. Doncic is the target, and I agree with it.

Edited March 8, 2018 by hazer

[High5]

19 hours ago, Diesel said:

Without it's own Lottery players = Lakers, Pistons, to start. 

 

So either recreate an anomaly from 14 years ago or be the historic Lakers with enough clout to sign a prime Shaq and have Kobe tell other teams not to draft him. #2 is obviously out of the question and we tried to piece together our version of #1 for 10 years with terrible results. I was one of the people arguing against a tank in 2014, but we weren't able to follow that season up with anything positive. The window closed before it ever really opened.

Also, let's not forget that those Pistons started a former #3 pick, #4 pick, and #7 pick still in their 20's and their 4x DPOY center was acquired by trading a former #3 pick that they drafted. Rip was also acquired by trading a former #3 pick. So even the team known for winning without star talent relied heavily on players drafted at the top of the lottery. 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Sothron said:

Wasn't Thomas a pretty high draft pick? Like #3 that year or something? Those Bad Boy teams don't win back to back titles without their HOF point guard.

Not the bad boys.   Wallace, Wallace, and the rest of that team that beat Shaq and Kobe. 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, davis171 said:

What exactly did Schlenk get rid of besides over paying a PF that may have helped compete for an 8 seed and would have had 0 traded value because of the size of the contract? Signing Sap would have negated our opportunity to hit FA this off-season and see if we can find a Paul Millsap for 10 million a DMC for 2.5 million like Ferry did.  

What exactly did Schlenk get??

Players = capital in this league.   When you get rid of players and get nothing back, you're not going upward at all.  Even if you win the lottery, you're still not going upward.   You've gotten rid of capital.   The way that Schlenk did it is the way back to continual mediocrity while at the same time, losing the respect of Free agents.   Unless we plan on injuring our draft pick so that we can win the lottery another time (ala Philadephia)... Yes Philadelphia... They've had 3 straight years of their #1 pick having to sit the whole year out which has led them to this great team.  The same with San Antonio getting Duncan.   Duncan came onto a team with 2 former #1 picks overall.  Simply because they were injured and went into the tank.    However, what did we do?  We got rid of everybody.. all of our tradable players.. we didn't even look for good deals.   So that we can win the lottery.   This is a plan that many other teams have followed and have gone nowhere with it. 

Instead of Spurs South, we should start calling ourselves... Nuggets South. 

[Royjr9]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Not the bad boys.   Wallace, Wallace, and the rest of that team that beat Shaq and Kobe. 

Yeah but Rasheed was a former top 4 pick. The others I’m too lazy to look up but besides Wallace and prince they were reasonable. Funny thing is I would have prefer for the hawks to keep Sheed. Even though we were well off from winning. But just for giggles rip was drafted 7th, prince 23 Wallace undrafted. Billups was 3rd so in short history proves that if you are drafting at the top those guys will play for championships just maybe not you.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Royjr9

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, Royjr9 said:

Yeah but Rasheed was a former top 4 pick. The others I’m too lazy to look up but besides Wallace and prince they were reasonable. Funny thing is I would have prefer for the hawks to keep Sheed. Even though we were well off from winning.

They got Wallace from us... they didn't draft him or any of their players.   They got them all through trades.   That's Antitank as a MFer. 

 

[davis171]

Just now, Diesel said:

What exactly did Schlenk get??

Players = capital in this league.   When you get rid of players and get nothing back, you're not going upward at all.  Even if you win the lottery, you're still not going upward.   You've gotten rid of capital.   The way that Schlenk did it is the way back to continual mediocrity while at the same time, losing the respect of Free agents.   Unless we plan on injuring our draft pick so that we can win the lottery another time (ala Philadephia)... Yes Philadelphia... They've had 3 straight years of their #1 pick having to sit the whole year out which has led them to this great team.  The same with San Antonio getting Duncan.   Duncan came onto a team with 2 former #1 picks overall.  Simply because they were injured and went into the tank.    However, what did we do?  We got rid of everybody.. all of our tradable players.. we didn't even look for good deals.   So that we can win the lottery.   This is a plan that many other teams have followed and have gone nowhere with it. 

Instead of Spurs South, we should start calling ourselves... Nuggets South. 

Sap isn't an asset at 30 million a year you let him walk because you can't get capital from him anymore and his contract doesn't make since. how do you make a 30+ million dollar contract work in trades? Had you signed him this coming offseason we would be over the cap and had no money this offseason to improve from a team that probably wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway. Comparing Sap to David Robinson is laughable. They won 59 games the year before not 41 and didn't have a negative plus minus lol. At 30 million Sap is 100% not a tradable asset. So um what else has he done....

[Royjr9]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

They got Wallace from us... they didn't draft him or any of their players.   They got them all through trades.   That's Antitank as a MFer. 

 

You got to have something to trade for these players. Lord knows the stars are not knocking down the doors to get to Atlanta. And how do you acquire top talent. Tank like hell. 

[Diesel]

19 minutes ago, High5 said:

So either recreate an anomaly from 14 years ago or be the historic Lakers with enough clout to sign a prime Shaq and have Kobe tell other teams not to draft him. #2 is obviously out of the question and we tried to piece together our version of #1 for 10 years with terrible results. I was one of the people arguing against a tank in 2014, but we weren't able to follow that season up with anything positive. The window closed before it ever really opened.

Also, let's not forget that those Pistons started a former #3 pick, #4 pick, and #7 pick still in their 20's and their 4x DPOY center was acquired by trading a former #3 pick that they drafted. Rip was also acquired by trading a former #3 pick. So even the team known for winning without star talent relied heavily on players drafted at the top of the lottery. 

Anomaly.

I think when you really sit back and look at it clearly...The better question is:

Which championship quality team was LED by the player that they drafted in the lottery?

I mean, Stacy King was a Lottery pick and he won championships with the Bulls.  So you telling me that Stacy Kings of the league means something is ridiculous. 

It's unfortunate that we have on the brain Cleveland and GS.

GS was actually led by KD last year.  And the post season MVP for their first title was Iguodala.  Both players started somewhere else. 

Cleveland was led by Lebron.. but actually, Lebron was picked up via trade. 

Before that Miami was Led by Lebron.  Picked up in FAcy.  

San Antonio was led by Duncan or Kawhi.  so they are the anomoly that fits your argument. 

Then we go to Shaq/Kobe.  Then we go to Detroit.  

Then we finally get to where you want to be with Jordan/AI/Utah/and Houston. 

But here's the deal.   back when it was Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Dr. J.. the #1 pick in the draft meant somehting.   Now with the 1 and dones.. not so much.   Now.. having a lottery pick led team is rare and having a player lead the team that was picked up in FAcy or Trade winning the finals is more commonplace. 

 

[davis171]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Anomaly.

I think when you really sit back and look at it clearly...The better question is:

Which championship quality team was LED by the player that they drafted in the lottery?

I mean, Stacy King was a Lottery pick and he won championships with the Bulls.  So you telling me that Stacy Kings of the league means something is ridiculous. 

It's unfortunate that we have on the brain Cleveland and GS.

GS was actually led by KD last year.  And the post season MVP for their first title was Iguodala.  Both players started somewhere else. 

Cleveland was led by Lebron.. but actually, Lebron was picked up via trade. 

Before that Miami was Led by Lebron.  Picked up in FAcy.  

San Antonio was led by Duncan or Kawhi.  so they are the anomoly that fits your argument. 

Then we go to Shaq/Kobe.  Then we go to Detroit.  

Then we finally get to where you want to be with Jordan/AI/Utah/and Houston. 

But here's the deal.   back when it was Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Dr. J.. the #1 pick in the draft meant somehting.   Now with the 1 and dones.. not so much.   Now.. having a lottery pick led team is rare and having a player lead the team that was picked up in FAcy or Trade winning the finals is more commonplace. 

 

You don't Land Lebron without Wade. You don't land KD without Steph and Klay. So really it is the biggest market in the NBA and an anomaly. Iggy was finals mvp for allowing lebron to average more pts, rbd, ass, steals, and blocks than any other player lol.

Edited March 8, 2018 by davis171

[High5]

8 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Anomaly.

I think when you really sit back and look at it clearly...The better question is:

Which championship quality team was LED by the player that they drafted in the lottery?

I mean, Stacy King was a Lottery pick and he won championships with the Bulls.  So you telling me that Stacy Kings of the league means something is ridiculous. 

It's unfortunate that we have on the brain Cleveland and GS.

GS was actually led by KD last year.  And the post season MVP for their first title was Iguodala.  Both players started somewhere else. 

Cleveland was led by Lebron.. but actually, Lebron was picked up via trade. 

Before that Miami was Led by Lebron.  Picked up in FAcy.  

San Antonio was led by Duncan or Kawhi.  so they are the anomoly that fits your argument. 

Then we go to Shaq/Kobe.  Then we go to Detroit.  

Then we finally get to where you want to be with Jordan/AI/Utah/and Houston. 

But here's the deal.   back when it was Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Dr. J.. the #1 pick in the draft meant somehting.   Now with the 1 and dones.. not so much.   Now.. having a lottery pick led team is rare and having a player lead the team that was picked up in FAcy or Trade winning the finals is more commonplace. 

 

This is why I have to take breaks before jumping back into the tank discussion. Use your head, man. Does LeBron go to Miami without Wade? Does LeBron go to Cleveland without Kyrie and Love? Does KD go to GS without Steph and Klay? Thanks for graciously conceding San Antonio, but how about the lottery picks involved in the Boston and Dallas championships? Right, so we're back to my original post. You need lottery picks to win championships, plain and simple. 

[DS5]

Obviously, all these "what-if" conversations are hypothetical... but I don't understand what the "anti-tankers" (KB21, Diesel) think the Hawks should have done? Specifically, Schlenk...he came in to a pretty crappy situation and made the best out of it, before tanking doesn't get you as many chances at a high pick (once lottery rules change in '19). 

What's the alternative here? And I'm talking from the time that Schlenk was hired. Do you keep Dwight and Paul for a combined $55 million? How far would that get you? Maaaaaybe playoffs and a 1st round exit? How would you (hypothetically) improve that team? In that scenario, you have Dennis at $15.5 million, Baze at $17 million (and going up), Dwight at $23.5 million, Sap at $30 mil. That's 80% of the salary cap tied to those 4 guys. Trades? No assets. Free agency? No money.