The Tank Thread

[Macknsweetjones]

14 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

You just don't throw away an entire season in hope of the 1 savior right?  There are so many other players involved in this process...Think of how they feel.  Dennis kinda spelled it out for y'all.  He said that I am entering my prime and wants to compete for a championship soon.  Who is to say that Prince or others on the team aren't thinking the same thing. You are just looking at this from your perspective as a fan.

Who gives a f*** about what Dennis think ? Prince still on his rookie contract so it doesn’t matter what he thinks..lol @ sacrifice a season..get it through your skull we aren’t winning shit..not even good enough to make a run for the playoffs..have some got damn logic about yourself.

14 hours ago, KB21 said:

Another poster who has never played sports and doesn't believe in culture.  

I played 2 sports..now continue post stupid ass assumptions like you always do.

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, Macknsweetjones said:

Who gives a f*** about what Dennis think ? Prince still on his rookie contract so it doesn’t matter what he thinks..lol @ sacrifice a season..get it through your skull we aren’t winning shit..not even good enough to make a run for the playoffs..have some got damn logic about yourself.

I played 2 sports..now continue post stupid ass assumptions like you always do.

Obviously not very well then since you believe that losing should be institutionalized and allowed to pervade throughout the entire organization.  Talent does not overcome a losing culture.  Once you get the stink of tanking on you, you will not get it off you.  It's like a skunk spraying you.  

When it's been 5 plus years since Atlanta has been out of the playoffs, maybe it will sink in at that time that this is an abhorrent strategy.  Basically, this strategy is nothing more than a GM being lazy and abdicating his duties as a GM, which is to put the best team he can on the floor and try to win games.  

[Macknsweetjones]

25 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Obviously not very well then since you believe that losing should be institutionalized and allowed to pervade throughout the entire organization.  Talent does not overcome a losing culture.  Once you get the stink of tanking on you, you will not get it off you.  It's like a skunk spraying you.  

When it's been 5 plus years since Atlanta has been out of the playoffs, maybe it will sink in at that time that this is an abhorrent strategy.  Basically, this strategy is nothing more than a GM being lazy and abdicating his duties as a GM, which is to put the best team he can on the floor and try to win games.  

Yup just like I thought another dumb ass assumption. Typical. You don’t know shit bro that’s a fact just a lot of long winded post without any logic to them. Your whole gimmick is an assumption. I’m not going for none of that “In 5 years I’m going to be right” trash you’re spewing. You’re a couch GM that parade around this board pretending to know how to run a team. Countless of boards members have shot your logic into the ground with facts yet you still press on in a ridiculous banter. You’re the Atlanta Spirit Group in board member form straight treadmilling through threads, make sense for you to want the hawks to do the same thing.

[thecampster]

2 hours ago, Macknsweetjones said:

Who gives a f*** about what Dennis think ? Prince still on his rookie contract so it doesn’t matter what he thinks..lol @ sacrifice a season..get it through your skull we aren’t winning shit..not even good enough to make a run for the playoffs..have some got damn logic about yourself.

I played 2 sports..now continue post stupid ass assumptions like you always do.

Uhm....I care! I'm pretty sure Dennis and Taurean care.

Let me try to educate you on KB21's extremism.

There are currently 6-8 other NBA teams using our current strategy in varying stages.  Phoenix for one, Dallas for another.  So if the goal is to get to an NBA Finals, we first have to be better at tanking and drafting than 6 of those 8 teams.  We at bare minimum need to be the best tanker/drafter in the East.  Next, we need to retain the good talent we draft. Which means those players on our team who we drafted well have to believe in the tanking process and see the pot of gold on the other side. 3rd, we need to find a way to stop elite teams from poaching our players...most notably...Boston...the biggest talent poachers in the world. 4th (very important), we need to avoid career ending or altering injuries or legal troubles to our new 20 year old millionaires. 5th, and this is the big one, we need to effectively manage all aspects of the cap while building by not giving money to the players who will then be affected by number 4.  We follow those 5 steps and we win tanking.  Then we have to hope that our team of naive youngsters mesh well enough and believe enough in themselves to take on the bought and paid for super teams, the league market bias and the refs.

By the way, all of this is possible but the odds of pulling it off and making the finals are less than 1 in 100.  Its been tried for the last 10 years and the only team to get there was Golden State....who only got there because of Curry's injury history allowed them to stay cap flexible while he developed into a roundball lesser diety and this allowed them to sign the vets to pair with their young stars.

KB21's theory is rather simple. Aggressively trade away aging assets and midlin draft picks for young up and coming stars to manage the cap. Loyalty should be to talent, not tenure. Aggressively create enough cap space for 2 stars to join your team at one time to pair with your own talent. It is the formula that has gone to the NBA finals in most of the last 20 years and is the most reliable. 

He's just worn down to yelling and trolling status from having to re-explain that to others.

 

Me...I'm on the "lets salvage the tank" train by advancing the rebuild through savvy use of assets to quickly acquire that young, just below superstar talent and then use available cap space to sign someone better than Jeremy Lin.  

The Hawks were derailing on the tank train not that long ago and were finally saved by Mike Bibby. Despite Joe Johnson, Al Horford Marvin Williams and Josh Smith, the team had a 22-28 record before Bibby joined the team in February, 08. The team after Bibby went 15-17 and barely made the playoffs.  This matters because at the end of the 99 season the Hawks made bad personnel decisions which led to the firing of Lenny Wilkins in 2000 for posting a losing record. The Hawks endured 9 straight losing seasons when they went into full tank mode in 00-01 and only recovered when the addition of Johnson, Bibby...the maturation of Smith and Horford led them to their last losing season at 37-45 in 08. Yes, that's 9 straight lottery seasons. It wasn't the draft that pulled them out, it was finally making a good trade for a good vet who could finally lead their young team...if not, they might have never recovered.

[Macknsweetjones]

And no

[EazyRoc]

15 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Uhm....I care! I'm pretty sure Dennis and Taurean care.

Let me try to educate you on KB21's extremism.

There are currently 6-8 other NBA teams using our current strategy in varying stages.  Phoenix for one, Dallas for another.  So if the goal is to get to an NBA Finals, we first have to be better at tanking and drafting than 6 of those 8 teams.  We at bare minimum need to be the best tanker/drafter in the East.  Next, we need to retain the good talent we draft. Which means those players on our team who we drafted well have to believe in the tanking process and see the pot of gold on the other side. 3rd, we need to find a way to stop elite teams from poaching our players...most notably...Boston...the biggest talent poachers in the world. 4th (very important), we need to avoid career ending or altering injuries or legal troubles to our new 20 year old millionaires. 5th, and this is the big one, we need to effectively manage all aspects of the cap while building by not giving money to the players who will then be affected by number 4.  We follow those 5 steps and we win tanking.  Then we have to hope that our team of naive youngsters mesh well enough and believe enough in themselves to take on the bought and paid for super teams, the league market bias and the refs.

By the way, all of this is possible but the odds of pulling it off and making the finals are less than 1 in 100.  Its been tried for the last 10 years and the only team to get there was Golden State....who only got there because of Curry's injury history allowed them to stay cap flexible while he developed into a roundball lesser diety and this allowed them to sign the vets to pair with their young stars.

KB21's theory is rather simple. Aggressively trade away aging assets and midlin draft picks for young up and coming stars to manage the cap. Loyalty should be to talent, not tenure. Aggressively create enough cap space for 2 stars to join your team at one time to pair with your own talent. It is the formula that has gone to the NBA finals in most of the last 20 years and is the most reliable. 

He's just worn down to yelling and trolling status from having to re-explain that to others.

 

Me...I'm on the "lets salvage the tank" train by advancing the rebuild through savvy use of assets to quickly acquire that young, just below superstar talent and then use available cap space to sign someone better than Jeremy Lin.  

The Hawks were derailing on the tank train not that long ago and were finally saved by Mike Bibby. Despite Joe Johnson, Al Horford Marvin Williams and Josh Smith, the team had a 22-28 record before Bibby joined the team in February, 08. The team after Bibby went 15-17 and barely made the playoffs.  This matters because at the end of the 99 season the Hawks made bad personnel decisions which led to the firing of Lenny Wilkins in 2000 for posting a losing record. The Hawks endured 9 straight losing seasons when they went into full tank mode in 00-01 and only recovered when the addition of Johnson, Bibby...the maturation of Smith and Horford led them to their last losing season at 37-45 in 08. Yes, that's 9 straight lottery seasons. It wasn't the draft that pulled them out, it was finally making a good trade for a good vet who could finally lead their young team...if not, they might have never recovered.

Oh come on. How many teams are trading away young up and coming players for Paul Millsap ? Dwight Howard ? That spiel sounded good, but that just isn’t how the NBA works. There hasn’t been a team in nearly 15 years or so that won a ring that hasn’t drafted their best (or at least 2nd best player) in the lottery. We’ve been down this road ad nauseum. One way or the other, we weren’t going to be good. At least now we have options even if they don’t work out. Locking up Millsap would’ve hamstrung us and we MAY have slid into the playoffs just to get bounced. We’ve had this discussion around here a million times now. The road we are on was practically inevitable. I don’t even think we are tanking in the Philly sense of the word. The Hawks are truly in position to build something special. 

[thecampster]

20 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

You have to do both. The Hawks didn't have anything to trade away prior to the rebuild. They have to draft the talent first and that means being in the lottery to do so. But KB claims that the lottery is some magnetic field that won't let you out once you dip your toe in it and that doesn't have to be the case. 

It is when you tank....its a mindset.  Losing on purpose is never a good thing. 90% of it is cap management...some of it is luck. The "beginning" isn't what matters. Its taking advantage of the cap opportunities when they appear. Timing and scouting, savvy deals.  Hoping for the magic draft pick is a terrible strategy.

Since 1948, there have been 700 NBA top 10 draft picks.  156 have won an NBA championship.

[thecampster]

In the last 30 years, only 2 number 1 overall picks have won a title with the team who drafted them

 

David Robinson

Tim Duncan

That's it.

 

[REHawksFan]

39 minutes ago, thecampster said:

In the last 30 years, only 2 number 1 overall picks have won a title with the team who drafted them

 

David Robinson

Tim Duncan

That's it.

 

Did LeBron not win a title with Cleveland?  But it isn't about No. 1 overall picks.  The Hawks didn't get a No. 1 pick this year and nothing they've said publicly leads me to believe that is their agenda.  The whole "trying to lose" argument is one contrived on this board and others like it.  It isn't reality.  Or at least hasn't been yet.  If they start trading away Prince, Collins, Trae, etc... in an effort to just get the No. 1 pick each year, then you're argument would be valid.  But so far, all they've done is torn down the previous version of the team, collect assets, and draft the potential "core" of the future team.  

A core of Trae, Huerter, Prince, Collins, and Spellman sounds fine to me at this point.  Will it pan out?  I don't know but I'm willing to let it play out to see.  Now they have to let those guys grow up and get better - while trying to win as many games as possible - and then add more talent next year.  By year 3, they could be at a point where the team will be ready to add complimentary vets to the talented young core in order to facilitate a PO run.  That's how you build it, imo.  That's the smart way to do it.  Yes, you use the assets you accumulate to facilitate trades and attract free agents to supplement the drafted talent.  But you can't ignore the drafted talent.  They still had to get a Trae or Luka or JJJ or whomever they chose with the 3 pick.  And I agree they have to be smart with Cap space and not sign bad contracts.  

[hazer]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

Basically, this guy's research states our 19 year olds will reach their potential at some point between 24 and 27 years of age which lends credence to KB21's "5 years in the lottery" rants.

The logical fallacy of that being we’ll be in the lottery until our 19 year olds reach their peak. We’ll be back in the playoffs long before they do, possibly even ‘19-‘20, 3rd year of the rebuild as Schlenk alluded and I’ve predicted.

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

In the last 30 years, only 2 number 1 overall picks have won a title with the team who drafted them

 

David Robinson

Tim Duncan

That's it.

 

Hmmm.....I guess we are just ignoring Kyrie, LeBron, Hakeem, Magic, and Worthy?

 

[RedDawg#8]

 

 

The goal is to win a championship. Period

To win a championship in the modern NBA you need superstar players.

If you can’t attract superstar talent via FAgency, then you have to draft it.

The best prospects with superstar potential  go early in the draft. Every once and while a great player slips but towards the top is the best collection of potential superstars.

In order to be in position to draft early you have to have a poor record or trade all your assests away to a team  to move up to their spot. If you don’t have a superstar player on your roster to begin with then usually you don’t have the chips needed to move up to the top of the lottery via trade. So you likely just need a poor record.

Hence tank/rebuild

because the point of it all is to win a championship and not just be a competitive bunch with no real chance of winning anything big.

To do it right you have to start from the bottom up. Draft picks take time to develop. While they develop you find out the holes in their game that you need to build around. If you draft right, there are less holes and shorter development windows. Philly showed what patience can yield. Golden state showed what drafting superstars could do for you. That’s the goal of this Front Office trust and believe. 

[thecampster]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Did LeBron not win a title with Cleveland?  But it isn't about No. 1 overall picks.  The Hawks didn't get a No. 1 pick this year and nothing they've said publicly leads me to believe that is their agenda.  The whole "trying to lose" argument is one contrived on this board and others like it.  It isn't reality.  Or at least hasn't been yet.  If they start trading away Prince, Collins, Trae, etc... in an effort to just get the No. 1 pick each year, then you're argument would be valid.  But so far, all they've done is torn down the previous version of the team, collect assets, and draft the potential "core" of the future team.  

A core of Trae, Huerter, Prince, Collins, and Spellman sounds fine to me at this point.  Will it pan out?  I don't know but I'm willing to let it play out to see.  Now they have to let those guys grow up and get better - while trying to win as many games as possible - and then add more talent next year.  By year 3, they could be at a point where the team will be ready to add complimentary vets to the talented young core in order to facilitate a PO run.  That's how you build it, imo.  That's the smart way to do it.  Yes, you use the assets you accumulate to facilitate trades and attract free agents to supplement the drafted talent.  But you can't ignore the drafted talent.  They still had to get a Trae or Luka or JJJ or whomever they chose with the 3 pick.  And I agree they have to be smart with Cap space and not sign bad contracts.  

He left then came back...not what we're talking about here. Go back and read my previous comment. Only about 1/5 of all top 10 picks ever win titles....anywhere!

[thecampster]

As far as Kyrie goes....That research was done just prior to Kyrie winning it all in, so yah..Kyrie.

 

[REHawksFan]

15 minutes ago, thecampster said:

He left then came back...not what we're talking about here. Go back and read my previous comment. Only about 1/5 of all top 10 picks ever win titles....anywhere!

Your stat - even if true (which I doubt) - doesn't prove the conclusion.  How many teams in the last 30 years have won a title without a Top 10 pick?  The answer is less than 1.  ZERO.  Even Detroit had a top 10 pick on its roster.  And most of the champs have multiple top 10 picks.  

Now you claim drafting in the lottery is not a recipe for success, but no team, not one, in the last 30 years has won without having top 10 players on their roster.  So you want Atlanta to have Top 10 players but not draft them?  Is that it?  And how do they attract such players?  Because LeBron, KD, Curry, ADavis, etc... ain't walking through that door in ATL.  

[KB21]

5 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

The east will be complete trash this year. Any team that wins 35 games will likely be competing for the 7th and 8th PO spots til the end of the year imo.

Also, unless the GM trades away the young talent on the roster, I don't see how they don't get better each year as prince, Collins, Trae, Huerter, and Spellman all get better. The idea now is to shed to middling players over time and replace them with more young talent and then add vets as they go along. 

People forget what Schlenk said when he took the job. This doesn't have to be an extended rebuild and it certainly doesn't have to be "worst team in the league rebuild. He's going for the GS model not the Philly model. GS never drafted higher than 5th if I'm not mistaken and only did that once.

Hmm.  So, where are the vets that are keeping this from being a Philly style tank?  When has Travis ever told the truth about the direction he has taken this organization?

[KB21]

5 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

You have to do both. The Hawks didn't have anything to trade away prior to the rebuild. They have to draft the talent first and that means being in the lottery to do so. But KB claims that the lottery is some magnetic field that won't let you out once you dip your toe in it and that doesn't have to be the case. 

So, give me examples of teams who cut their roster down to the bare minimum/expansion level rosters and did not spend an extended amount of time in the lottery.

[KB21]

4 hours ago, thecampster said:

It is when you tank....its a mindset.  Losing on purpose is never a good thing. 90% of it is cap management...some of it is luck. The "beginning" isn't what matters. Its taking advantage of the cap opportunities when they appear. Timing and scouting, savvy deals.  Hoping for the magic draft pick is a terrible strategy.

Since 1948, there have been 700 NBA top 10 draft picks.  156 have won an NBA championship.

100% correct!!

[KB21]

4 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Did LeBron not win a title with Cleveland?  But it isn't about No. 1 overall picks.  The Hawks didn't get a No. 1 pick this year and nothing they've said publicly leads me to believe that is their agenda.  The whole "trying to lose" argument is one contrived on this board and others like it.  It isn't reality.  Or at least hasn't been yet.  If they start trading away Prince, Collins, Trae, etc... in an effort to just get the No. 1 pick each year, then you're argument would be valid.  But so far, all they've done is torn down the previous version of the team, collect assets, and draft the potential "core" of the future team.  

A core of Trae, Huerter, Prince, Collins, and Spellman sounds fine to me at this point.  Will it pan out?  I don't know but I'm willing to let it play out to see.  Now they have to let those guys grow up and get better - while trying to win as many games as possible - and then add more talent next year.  By year 3, they could be at a point where the team will be ready to add complimentary vets to the talented young core in order to facilitate a PO run.  That's how you build it, imo.  That's the smart way to do it.  Yes, you use the assets you accumulate to facilitate trades and attract free agents to supplement the drafted talent.  But you can't ignore the drafted talent.  They still had to get a Trae or Luka or JJJ or whomever they chose with the 3 pick.  And I agree they have to be smart with Cap space and not sign bad contracts.  

They absolutely tried to lose this past season, and they are doing so again this year.  They faked an injury to Kent Bazemore to shut him down because he was playing too well.  They have intentionally not used their cap space on veterans that can help the young talent on the team win.  This is exactly what the 76ers did.  

[Sothron]

4 hours ago, thecampster said:

In the last 30 years, only 2 number 1 overall picks have won a title with the team who drafted them

 

David Robinson

Tim Duncan

That's it.

 

Uh...no. Lebron James? lol not even thinking about this and I  proved that wrong.