The Post Ferry Autopsy

[AHF]

3 hours ago, HawkItus said:

You say that, but when we were shopping Horf and Sap the offers were reportedly very weak.  As a matter of fact show me any in season trade for guys you see on Paul and Horfords level that netted real value.

Isaiah Thomas is worse than both of them (especially at the time of the trade) and netted two productive young players.  Larry Nance would have led the Hawks in PER and WS this season.

Crowder/Rose/Schumpert (all of whom sucked YTD and none of whom was as good as an All-Star) netted Rodney Hood and George Hill.

Griffin (much worse contract but similar player) netted Avery Bradley, Tobias Harris, a first round pick and a second round pick

 

 

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, hawkman said:

It happens all the time in the real world. If he conducted himself with rigor and formality in a professional setting, there would be no scandal and he wouldn't have been fired, at least not at that time. He brought it on himself.

Gearon was looking for anything to hang his hat on to create a scandal.  It likely would have happened at some point.

[hawkman]

Just now, AHF said:

Gearon was looking for anything to hang his hat on to create a scandal.  It likely would have happened at some point.

If Ferry hadn't said what he said, there would be no recording to give to the press. He's accountable. Someone can have it out for me and record me coming in late or sleeping on the job. The guy who did the recording may be a horrible human being but I'm still accountable for my behavior.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, hawkman said:

If Ferry hadn't said what he said, there would be no recording to give to the press. He's accountable. Someone can have it out for me and record me coming in late or sleeping on the job. The guy who did the recording may be a horrible human being but I'm still accountable for my behavior.

I do think he was sloppy in reading a scout's report with this in it without contextualizing it but reading a scout's report with this in it doesn't equate to sleeping on the job for me.  I guarantee you could record conversations with about any GM or owner and find some statement just as bad.  This is especially teethless to me when Ferry read this out as a cautionary note during a presentation in which he was asking for approval to make a lucrative offer to Deng (one that was exactly the same as the offer he ended up signing).  It isn't like he was using something inflammatory to say "don't hire him."  Ferry was advocating making a big offer and noting pro's and con's reported by various scouting reports for background.  

[TheFuzz]

5 minutes ago, hawkman said:

If Ferry hadn't said what he said, there would be no recording to give to the press. He's accountable. Someone can have it out for me and record me coming in late or sleeping on the job. The guy who did the recording may be a horrible human being but I'm still accountable for my behavior.

I don't totally agree and I'm not sure Ferry should've been FIRED per se, but he said some dumb, ignorant shit. He deserved to be held accountable for his actions.

[TheFuzz]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

Isaiah Thomas is worse than both of them (especially at the time of the trade) and netted two productive young players.  Larry Nance would have led the Hawks in PER and WS this season.

Crowder/Rose/Schumpert (all of whom sucked YTD and none of whom was as good as an All-Star) netted Rodney Hood and George Hill.

Griffin (much worse contract but similar player) netted Avery Bradley, Tobias Harris, a first round pick and a second round pick

 

 

I could be wrong, but I believe Orlando offered a similar deal to us that they did Ibaka?

Oladipo, Ersan and Sabonis would look real nice in a Hawks uni right now...

[AHF]

1 minute ago, TheFuzz said:

I could be wrong, but I believe Orlando offered a similar deal to us that they did Ibaka?

Oladipo, Ersan and Sabonis would look real nice in a Hawks uni right now...

Correct.  That was an offseason deal but does highlight the sort of return we could have gotten.  Horford and Sap both are much better pieces than Ibaka.

[HawkItus]

10 minutes ago, TheFuzz said:

I could be wrong, but I believe Orlando offered a similar deal to us that they did Ibaka?

Oladipo, Ersan and Sabonis would look real nice in a Hawks uni right now...

See I heard that was never offered.

24 minutes ago, AHF said:

Isaiah Thomas is worse than both of them (especially at the time of the trade) and netted two productive young players.  Larry Nance would have led the Hawks in PER and WS this season.

Crowder/Rose/Schumpert (all of whom sucked YTD and none of whom was as good as an All-Star) netted Rodney Hood and George Hill.

Griffin (much worse contract but similar player) netted Avery Bradley, Tobias Harris, a first round pick and a second round pick

 

 

Younger

Younger

Star/better

[AHF]

1 minute ago, HawkItus said:

See I heard that was never offered.

Younger

Younger

Star/better

None of that is a meaningful distinction, IMO.  Isaiah Thomas, Crowder, etc. were absolute dumpster fires when they were traded for value.  Our guys were still very attractive pieces compared to guys like that.

For example, Al was 28-29 when he would have been traded in the offseason or midseason.  You think that is too old?  You think Griffin is actually a better player or that he is bringing a ton of celebrity spotlight to Detroit?  Come on.  You know better.

We passed on moving these guys.

[JSmooooove]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

None of that is a meaningful distinction, IMO.  Isaiah Thomas, Crowder, etc. were absolute dumpster fires when they were traded for value.  Our guys were still very attractive pieces compared to guys like that.

For example, Al was 28-29 when he would have been traded in the offseason or midseason.  You think that is too old?  You think Griffin is actually a better player or that he is bringing a ton of celebrity spotlight to Detroit?  Come on.  You know better.

We passed on moving these guys.

Anyone who thinks we would have to take back bad contracts or not be able to trade multiple time all stars has their head in the sand. 

[HawkItus]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

None of that is a meaningful distinction, IMO.  Isaiah Thomas, Crowder, etc. were absolute dumpster fires when they were traded for value.  Our guys were still very attractive pieces compared to guys like that.

For example, Al was 28-29 when he would have been traded in the offseason or midseason.  You think that is too old?  You think Griffin is actually a better player or that he is bringing a ton of celebrity spotlight to Detroit?  Come on.  You know better.

We passed on moving these guys.

https://hoopshype.com/storyline/al-horford-trade/

 

The ramblings during that season on Horf

 

 

[bleachkit]

1 hour ago, hawkman said:

It happens all the time in the real world. If he conducted himself with rigor and formality in a professional setting, there would be no scandal and he wouldn't have been fired, at least not at that time. He brought it on himself.

Dude he was fired because Gearon hated him. The whole controversy of him quoting a remark off a scouting report was just a cover. If you that he deserved to be fired for that then you have some very misplaced values. 

[AHF]

24 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

https://hoopshype.com/storyline/al-horford-trade/

 

The ramblings during that season on Horf

 

 

Some of those are amusing:

Quote

The C’s have had no recent talks with Atlanta about him, and, in addition to what the Hawks might want should they move him, it is clear from sources that the Celts are not willing to pay the 6-foot-10 center big money when he becomes a free agent in the summer.

 

[Royjr9]

On 4/26/2018 at 10:54 AM, AHF said:

Eh...the team would have had real challenges after the 2016 regardless but would we have let Horford and Sap walk for nothing and paid Baze crazy money with Ferry in charge?  I don't think so.  I think he would have tried to do some cold Patriots type moves and dealt them for assets rather than leave us in a position to lose them for nothing.  I know he would never have paid Baze like that.

Ferry might have crashed and burned but who can say.  You are right that this leaves people to speculate but I hardly see how he could have done worse and I can see a lot of paths that would have been better.

My contention is  that he was gonna sell that team off in the hope of obtaining bigger assets. His convocation with horford would have been intresting cause the hesitation that he presented with ferry would have shipped his ass out instead of getting left in the rain at the drive in. 

[Royjr9]

On 4/26/2018 at 2:48 PM, AHF said:

I do think he was sloppy in reading a scout's report with this in it without contextualizing it but reading a scout's report with this in it doesn't equate to sleeping on the job for me.  I guarantee you could record conversations with about any GM or owner and find some statement just as bad.  This is especially teethless to me when Ferry read this out as a cautionary note during a presentation in which he was asking for approval to make a lucrative offer to Deng (one that was exactly the same as the offer he ended up signing).  It isn't like he was using something inflammatory to say "don't hire him."  Ferry was advocating making a big offer and noting pro's and con's reported by various scouting reports for background.  

I get that but this reminds me of when embarrassingly one of the falcons s asked one of the players they were scouting did he like men. (Generalizing of course) but point goes in this day that is a no no. And simply something that you should avoid. Nobody is interested in giving people passses anymore. ASG ownership group was terrible and robbed Atlanta of so much but if ferry was moronic enough to give  them the ammo to make him the fall guy or use him to accomplish this then he deserved what he got. 

[Diesel]

On 4/26/2018 at 5:32 AM, thecampster said:

So lets try to keep this on topic.  No thread hijacking. Knowing everything you know now, do you still feel the same about the team letting Ferry go?

 

My Perspective: It was Ferry, not Bud who was responsible for the 60 win season.  Ferry masterfully put together a team of lunch bucket type players who could defend and were willing to work on all parts of their game. It was Ferry who brought in Bud, assembled the coaches for Hawks-U and changed the culture. The day Ferry left, the wheels fell off.

Is there anyone here who, if they could go back in time, would change their mind and keep Ferry?

Bud's coaching was evident from the start.   He took a nothing team in his first year, got them to the playoffs and had them standing toe to toe with the best that the East had to offer.   We were definitely nowhere in Indiana's class but there we were in game 7 with them scared...

Ferry did what most GMs do... Cut bait on high priced players, sign good guys who would play for cheap and look for good draft picks.  Ferry proved that he couldn't operate well in the middle rounds of the draft. 

[hawkman]

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 4:45 PM, bleachkit said:

Dude he was fired because Gearon hated him. The whole controversy of him quoting a remark off a scouting report was just a cover. If you that he deserved to be fired for that then you have some very misplaced values. 

Not misplaced values, just common sense. What I think he 'deserved' has nothing to do with it. I'm not his employer. If your employer(s) already don't like you, it's wise not to give them a reason to let you go. He flippantly used profanity and made disparaging remarks about a free agent's nationality during a presentation to his employers at a multi million dollar company. All he had to do was show some professionalism by proofreading and then paraphrasing the scouting report. I don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Forget the politics or social aspects of it. Be a professional in a professional setting. 

[Peoriabird]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

Bud's coaching was evident from the start.   He took a nothing team in his first year, got them to the playoffs

The Hawks posted far better records in the 5 previous season than Bud's 1st season as Head coach

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

The Hawks post far better records in the 5 previous season than Bud's 1st season as Head coach

Al Horford also missed the majority of that season with a torn pectoralis major.

[bleachkit]

29 minutes ago, hawkman said:

Not misplaced values, just common sense. What I think he 'deserved' has nothing to do with it. I'm not his employer. If your employer(s) already don't like you, it's wise not to give them a reason to let you go. He flippantly used profanity and made disparaging remarks about a free agent's nationality during a presentation to his employers at a multi million dollar company. All he had to do was show some professionalism by proofreading and then paraphrasing the scouting report. I don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Forget the politics or social aspects of it. Be a professional in a professional setting. 

Oh no, he didn't proofread and paraphrase! Fire him at once! Burn him at the stake! Who cares about the team he built, he didn't proofread and paraphrase for God's sake.