Where's the defense??

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

GSW traded Dorrell Wright after he averaged 16 ppg to Phi for Jarrett Jack.

GSW traded Monte Ellis (in his prime) for Stephen Jackson and oft injured Andrew Bogut. 

Those guys and this guy operates from a blueprint that doesn't necessarily care about talent. 

Dorell Wright was 26 and a per minute monster. He was traded after he averaged 10 points and 4.6 boards in 27 minutes a game. His 16 points a game was the year before he was traded when he got 38 minutes a game. He never averaged more than 10 points a game since. To say he was a up and coming young player is a bit of a stretch. I would go so far as to say Schlenk sees Dennis, even though younger, in a similar but more talented view.

The Bucks trade was good for them; and Bogut was a valuable member of their 1st championship team. Monta and Steph playing beside each other was also a nightmare. Again, Schelnk could see this pairing very similar to Dennis and Trae playing beside each other. Monta was 25 when he was traded and had started over 300 games.

You are reaching here with age on both players. Collins is only 22 and only started 26 games for his career. Both Monta and Dorell are at least considered young vets and had 10 times more starts in their career when they were traded. Monta was 25 and Dorrell was 26.

It is not even close to being the same. Neither player was traded any where near their 2nd year in the league.

[aali34]

Just now, Buzzard said:

 

You are reaching here with age on both players. Collins is only 22 and only started 26 games for his career. Both Monta and Dorell are at least considered young vets and had 10 times more starts in their career when they were traded. Monta was 25 and Dorrell was 26.

Collins wont turn 21 untill september

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, Buzzard said:

Dorell Wright was 26 and a per minute monster. He was traded after he averaged 10 points and 4.6 boards in 27 minutes a game. His 16 points a game was the year before he was traded when he got 38 minutes a game. He never averaged more than 10 points a game since. To say he was a up and coming young player is a bit of a stretch. I would go so far as to say Schlenk sees Dennis, even though younger, in a similar but more talented view.

The Bucks trade was good for them; and Bogut was a valuable member of their 1st championship team. Monta and Steph playing beside each other was also a nightmare. Again, Schelnk could see this pairing very similar to Dennis and Trae playing beside each other. Monta was 25 when he was traded and had started over 300 games.

You are reaching here with age on both players. Collins is only 22 and only started 26 games for his career. Both Monta and Dorell are at least considered young vets and had 10 times more starts in their career when they were traded. Monta was 25 and Dorrell was 26.

It is not even close to being the same. Neither player was traded any where near their 2nd year in the league.

Collins is 20, he'll be 21 in September.

[DrReality]

24 minutes ago, aali34 said:

Now I'm upset.

Trading Collins would be one of the DUMBEST things any GM could do. He put up 10 and 7 last season averaging 24 minutes a game while having to play through lineup inconsistencies and literally having no offense run for him while also having the highest PER on the team. Per 36 that would be 16 and 10. I can't even count how many games last season he ended with the a positive plus/minus even when we were getting blown out. His defensive problems were overblown and he has shown good improvement. His ability to score in the pick and roll is already elite, he displayed an underrated passing ability, in college he did well in the post, and has shown some flashes of shooting as well as putting the ball on the floor for straight line drives. That is LITERALLY being able to score on any level. 

And to top it all, he did it with DENNIS as his point guard. Imagine what he could do with Trae going around screens and drawing in defenses? Not to mention he would be able to find him and set him up for scoring positions that would result in easy baskets.

Than again, it would be typical for the hawks to ruin a potential Nash/Stoudemire dynamic .

That’s what he wants. To get you and/other red up.  Yawn. 

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, DrReality said:

That’s what he wants. To get you and/other red up.  Yawn. 

It took me a half hour to research and type my rebuttal. What a waste, But it brought up some not so fond memories of Dorell Wright. When he was traded to Philly, he was probably the most overrated player to start the fantasy season. Everyone was taking him to high in the draft. lmao.

[aali34]

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I did.  My response is that I believe that if Collins is involved, we will get back young talent. 

 

Backed off the original claim that Collins would be included primarily to dump Dennis.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

Backed off the original claim that Collins would be included primarily to dump Dennis.

The original claim was that Collins, Bembry, or Prince will be used to Dump Dennis.  Moreover, if Collins is used as I showed in the proposed Bamba trade, we will be using him only as a means to get back a good young player. 

My other mentioned proposal was Bembry and Dennis for Teague. 

[High5]

People really need to stop trying to trade Collins. He’s a 20-year-old with a very clear path towards being an All Star. Even more so now that we have a potential dream PNR partnership with Trae. Schlenk certainly isn’t looking to trade him because he drafted Spellman with the 30th pick a week ago.

[EazyRoc]

4 minutes ago, High5 said:

People really need to stop trying to trade Collins. He’s a 20-year-old with a very clear path towards being an All Star. Even more so now that we have a potential dream PNR partnership with Trae. Schlenk certainly isn’t looking to trade him because he drafted Spellman with the 30th pick a week ago.

Collins has fringe All Star potential. What will take his game to the next level is skill. The athleticism, hands, and finishing are all there. If he can develop reliable range at 17 in, add the corner three, and attack close outs we are looking at a real deal player. In the years coming, we should see an improvement as the floor opens up with all of our shooters. The post will be all his, but can he really take advantage and be a scoring option ? That remains to be seen and that sort of pressure hasn’t been expected of him just yet.

[High5]

1 hour ago, EazyRoc said:

Collins has fringe All Star potential. What will take his game to the next level is skill. The athleticism, hands, and finishing are all there. If he can develop reliable range at 17 in, add the corner three, and attack close outs we are looking at a real deal player. In the years coming, we should see an improvement as the floor opens up with all of our shooters. The post will be all his, but can he really take advantage and be a scoring option ? That remains to be seen and that sort of pressure hasn’t been expected of him just yet.

I actually think his hands/handles are his biggest obstacle. He fumbled on a lot his drives and backdowns and botched an abnormal number of dunks. I'm not really worried about the rest of his game. Mostly he needs experience and strength/conditioning work. 

[RedDawg#8]

Who cares about defense when the point is to lose games on purpose.

By the time we are even thinking about winning again Trae, Collins and Heurter will all be about 15lbs of muscle bigger and have had the tutelage of Pierce. 

90% of the top prospects in this draft had defensive question marks about them. It’s more an experience thing than anything. Players tend to get better defensively with time and our guys will be no different, just wait. Part of their growth will be to understand  defensive techniques and nuances. 

They may never be first team all defense but they don’t need to be. As long as they are passable on that end you can add a wing defender specialist and a rim protector down the road. 

But we ain’t building a champ for next season so why even worry about it?

All is good.

 

[EazyRoc]

18 hours ago, High5 said:

I actually think his hands/handles are his biggest obstacle. He fumbled on a lot his drives and backdowns and botched an abnormal number of dunks. I'm not really worried about the rest of his game. Mostly he needs experience and strength/conditioning work. 

I always chalked that up poor handles and doing too much (dunk wise). I never considered that. I’ll have to watch him now in that context.

[AHF]

22 hours ago, Diesel said:

The original claim was that Collins, Bembry, or Prince will be used to Dump Dennis. 

 

[AHF:  Revised Position] Moreover, if Collins is used as I showed in the proposed Bamba trade, we will be using him only as a means to get back a good young player. 

 

Exactly.  Backed off the original prediction that Collins would be used to dump Dennis.  Now saying if Collins is included it will be only to get a good young player.  Very different things.

[GThawks3]

This  thread is embarrassing.

 

1. 0% we’re trading for Bamba 

2. 0% we’re trading Collins 

[GThawks3]

On 6/28/2018 at 2:43 PM, aali34 said:

 

 

22 hours ago, High5 said:

People really need to stop trying to trade Collins. He’s a 20-year-old with a very clear path towards being an All Star. Even more so now that we have a potential dream PNR partnership with Trae. Schlenk certainly isn’t looking to trade him because he drafted Spellman with the 30th pick a week ago.

Funny thing is Collins averaged 1.1 blocks in 24 mintues. He had a 1.9 DBPM which is pretty damn good for a rookie. Collins being a BAD defender is a myth. 

[TheFuzz]

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 0:13 PM, AHF said:

Prince should take a big step forward as a defender this year.  There is absolutely nothing about his profile that says there is anything blocking him from being a stout defender other than what is between his ears.

I hate to say it, but Prince seems a little soft on defense. He has moments of good energy and footwork, but I don't think he'll ever be a force there, not enough grit.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

Exactly.  Backed off the original prediction that Collins would be used to dump Dennis.  Now saying if Collins is included it will be only to get a good young player.  Very different things.

So do you believe that Dumping Dennis only means taking bad deals?

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

So do you believe that Dumping Dennis only means taking bad deals?

If you are trading Collins for comparably valued young talent then it is like doing two separate deals -- one where you dump Dennis and one that is basically Collins for the young talent.  Dumping Dennis means a range of things - it could be getting a team to take his contract with almost nothing coming back or it could be us taking back bad deals or it could be us giving up assets to get it done.  If you are including Collins for the purpose of dumping Dennis then you are saying that Collins is being included to induce the other team to take Dennis.  The only means of inducing another team to do this  in the context of a dump trade is to give more than you get back.  If you are getting back more value than you are giving, then it isn't a dump -- it is simply a trade for value.

[EazyRoc]

3 hours ago, TheFuzz said:

I hate to say it, but Prince seems a little soft on defense. He has moments of good energy and footwork, but I don't think he'll ever be a force there, not enough grit.

I think this season will be true test. If Pierce, a defensive coach, can’t get him defending at a high level, then he just isn’t interested in being a good defender. The tools are there.