Consensus #2 pick

[TheFuzz]

Would've voted Okungwu for #1, voted for him for 2. Long term fit, upside, floor, production. I'm not in love with him as a top 5 pick kinda guy but more confident he'll be a solid player than these other dudes.

[TRW]

I would trade the pick. If I couldn't trade the pick I'd choose Wiseman. I really like Haliburton, but taking him in the top three is a no go for me. 

Comparing Obi Toppin to John Collins is like comparing dried rice to macaroni and cheese. Collins is a budding star. I think Collins is 7 months older than Toppin and it would take him at least two or three years to get where John Collins is now. The only way I move Collins is if Giannis or A.D. are coming.

[Spud2nique]

Consensus pick #2 final result:

 

JAMES WISEMAN

[NBASupes]

6 hours ago, TRW said:

I would trade the pick. If I couldn't trade the pick I'd choose Wiseman. I really like Haliburton, but taking him in the top three is a no go for me. 

Comparing Obi Toppin to John Collins is like comparing dried rice to macaroni and cheese. Collins is a budding star. I think Collins is 7 months older than Toppin and it would take him at least two or three years to get where John Collins is now. The only way I move Collins is if Giannis or A.D. are coming.

Bet. Dame Lillard came in NBA ready. Donovan Mitchell NBA ready. Blake Griffin NBA ready. When offensive based guys come in NBA ready, they can come in and make a massive impact Day f***ing one

[AHF]

13 hours ago, NBASupes said:

As of right now, both are 8.5 on offense with Collins closing in on 9 if he can up the volume of his 3pt shooting. Toppin ceiling is a 9.5 on offense with two offensive swings left not to mention .5 for fit with Trae which benefits John. He's better than John on offense. 

Toppin can score in movement, PnR, PnP, DHO, post-up, he can draw double teams, he's an excellent passer for his position in the half court, is an excellent quick decision maker, he's a lot more athletic than John, he's more explosive, he gets off the ground quicker, he has good open court handles. This dude is the best scoring PF I've seen as a prospect. 

You are extremely underrating how good a scorer Toppin is. I can't wait till he's in the NBA. This is cute because most haven't seen how good this guy is at scoring. He's elite and he's not just that. This kid is Amar'e 2.0 at scoring. 

I been trying to tell ya'll but if you want to be the skeptical, be my guest. He's not just a movement guy, he will score anywhere with any PG. Not just a special one like Trae. 

Are you predicting Toppin will equal JC’s scoring and efficiency next year since you say they are currently equal on offense?

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Are you predicting Toppin will equal JC’s scoring and efficiency next year since you say they are currently equal on offense?

Scoring, yes. Efficiency, HELL NO! That's John game like Tyson Chandler's. They are ELITE movement specialists, that's what they do. Toppin is a elite scorer. That's what he does. Look at his per36 next year no matter where he goes, I know it will be clearly better than John's. 100% even here. 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Scoring, yes. Efficiency, HELL NO! That's John game like Tyson Chandler's. They are ELITE movement specialists, that's what they do. Toppin is a elite scorer. That's what he does. Look at his per36 next year no matter where he goes, I know it will be clearly better than John's. 100% even here. 

If he is going to be a volume, much lower efficiency scorer who ends up at 24 pp36 versus like 22 pp36 for JC that isn’t better when it takes 5 more shots to do it.

[NBASupes]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

If he is going to be a volume, much lower efficiency scorer who ends up at 24 pp36 versus like 22 pp36 for JC that isn’t better when it takes 5 more shots to do it.

John scores mostly on high efficiency types of baskets like Tyson Chandler with decent 3pt volume for a big. Obi is a lot more versatile and efficient as well. There is a great chance Obi will be very efficient considering his efficiency in college. 

Clarke and Zion are extremely efficient and Zion points per touch is insane. 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by NBASupes

[TRW]

Supes, I believe Toppin will be a good player eventually but sometimes I think people don't give John Collins his due respect. John Collins was a beast at Wake Forest. He didn't score all of his points off dunks. He was and still is a great mid-range shooter and has a decent back to the basket game. His defense will never be lights  out but he's shown real improvement. It's not his fault that Coach Pierce doesn't run any plays from him.

[AHF]

Then tell me Obi will be comparable on efficiency or at least very similar and he will have an equal or greater scoring volume and then I can hey you saying they are equal today.  I’d like to formulate a bet here but it can’t be that I lose if Obi scores less on a lower ts% and that is somehow evidence of him being equal.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

John scores mostly on high efficiency types of baskets like Tyson Chandler with decent 3pt volume for a big. Obi is a lot more versatile and efficient as well. There is a great chance Obi will be very efficient considering his efficiency in college. 

Clarke and Zion are extremely efficient and Zion points per touch is insane. 

 

Also Tyson Chandler.  The guy who never averaged 12 points a game?  
 

You are stretching yourself really thin on that.  Amare is a much better reference point.

 

I’ll take JC’s offense over Clarke’s all day long.

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

Then tell me Obi will be comparable on efficiency or at least very similar and he will have an equal or greater scoring volume and then I can hey you saying they are equal today.  I’d like to formulate a bet here but it can’t be that I lose if Obi scores less on a lower ts% and that is somehow evidence of him being equal.

Close but there is no chance he will be better efficiency wise than John considering how Atlanta uses John. Now assuming both are Hawks, I can see Obi having both a higher efficiency and scoring rates per36 even if John plays more MPG which I obviously expect to happen. 

Put this bet in the vault, I need to see where Obi goes first or if John is traded and where he goes. Once that happens, I will either take or turn down your bet. 

 

I think per36 Obi will outscore John nowhere where he goes. 

 

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Close but there is no chance he will be better efficiency wise than John considering how Atlanta uses John. Now assuming both are Hawks, I can see Obi having both a higher efficiency and scoring rates per36 even if John plays more MPG which I obviously expect to happen. 

Put this bet in the vault, I need to see where Obi goes first or if John is traded and where he goes. Once that happens, I will either take or turn down your bet. 

 

I think per36 Obi will outscore John nowhere where he goes. 

 

We’ll pin it until closer to next season.

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

Also Tyson Chandler.  The guy who never averaged 12 points a game?  
 

You are stretching yourself really thin on that.  Amare is a much better reference point.

You know what I mean, he's a movement big who scores high efficiency points. John is obviously better at it than Tyson is as well as can do more like PnP, and he's a lot more active on offense than Chandler is. 

Amar'e scores on a lot of post-ups and he draws a lot of coverage (double teams). John hardly scores from post-ups unless it's on a guard or smaller forward. John scores a lot of movement baskets. That and PnRs. Amar'e scores from a lot of areas. Toppin is a lot more like Amar'e than John

 

Quote

I’ll take JC’s offense over Clarke’s all day long.

You have no argument from me on this although the future could show a different story. 

 

[marco102]

16 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Close but there is no chance he will be better efficiency wise than John considering how Atlanta uses John. Now assuming both are Hawks, I can see Obi having both a higher efficiency and scoring rates per36 even if John plays more MPG which I obviously expect to happen. 

Put this bet in the vault, I need to see where Obi goes first or if John is traded and where he goes. Once that happens, I will either take or turn down your bet. 

 

I think per36 Obi will outscore John nowhere where he goes. 

 

I have a problem saying someone who is the same age as John will come into the NBA and be just as good as John.  

Are you saying Obi will be better than John day one or you projecting him to be better than John?

I mean I love me some Anthony Edwards, but no way in hell I'm going to say that he will be better than Bradley Beal because the likelihood  of that happening are slim.  That's with projection.  I sure as hell hope if the Hawks select him he will be better.

You never know how these kids will react to the NBA.  I guess I'm saying it seems like you're speaking in absolutes and not projection when it comes to Obi and John . Where one is a three year Vet in the NBA with a proven track record of being great offensively, the other could come in and get his welcome to the NBA moment and never recover. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by marco102

[NBASupes]

Just now, marco102 said:

I have a problem saying someone who is the same age as John will come into the NBA and be just as good as John.  

Are you saying Obi will be better than John day one or you projecting him to be better than John?

I mean I love me some Anthony Edwards, but no way in hell I'm going to say that he will be better than Bradley Beal because the likely hood  of that happening are slim.  That's with projection.  I sure as hell hope if the Hawks select him he will be better.

You never know how these kids will react to the NBA.  I guess I'm saying it seems like you're speaking in absolutes and not projection when it comes to Obi and John . Where one is a three year Vet in the NBA with a proven track record of being great offensively, the other could come in and get his welcome to the NBA moment and never recover. 

Why would you expect Edwards to be ANYWHERE close to Beal right now? Nothing we have seen on tape says he's anywhere close. 

If Dame Lillard is NBA Ready and shows that he's ready to play offensively in the NBA and is offensively better than Jeff Teague right now, why would I say Jeff is clearly better because he's experienced?  So if tape from college tells me Lillard is better on offense than Teague but Teague is averaging 14.6 and 7.2 on a playoff team, I am wrong for that statement since Lillard is in college playing at a small conference school. 

Goes to Lillard's rookie year, he's averaging 19 and 6.5 and Jeff is getting 16.5 and 6.7. Lillard is clearly better offensively. So was I right? 

Toppin is a 8.5 offensively with John but if Toppin has Trae, he's a 9 on offense. Not to mention the in-season improvements, he could likely be a 10 on offense at the end of the year. Hell yeah, he's better than Collins. It's NOT even close.

Anthony on offense right now is a 7!!!! Beal is a damn 10 on offense. That's the gap between Ish Smith right now and Trae Young right now on offense. What the hell are you talking about? 

[marco102]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Why would you expect Edwards to be ANYWHERE close to Beal right now? Nothing we have seen on tape says he's anywhere close. 

 

Anthony on offense right now is a 7!!!! Beal is a damn 10 on offense. That's the gap between Ish Smith right now and Trae Young right now on offense. What the hell are you talking about? 

That was my point.  I know very well Anthony will not come into the NBA and be as good as Bradley Beal. I was saying the chances of him being as good as Bradley Beal ever are slim.  From day one not going to happen.

John offensively is  a top power forward in the league. Teague never was a top offensive point guard ever.  Making a comparison to him and Dame is like comparing apples to peas.

Question for you who's better John Collins or Marvin Bagley III? 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by marco102

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, marco102 said:

That was my point.  I know very well Anthony will not come into the NBA and be as good as Bradley Beal. I was saying the chances of him being as good as Bradley Beal ever are slim.  From day one not going to happen.

John offensively is  a top power forward in the league. Teague never was a top offensive point guard ever.  Making a comparison to him and Dame is like comparing apples to peas.

Question for you who's better John Collins or Marvin Bagley III? 

 

Your point is terrible. There are not comparable parts. Toppin and Collins as Toppin is clearly NBA ready. Why would you compare him to a prospect like Edwards who's like Trae out of college and em. Lillard is NBA ready. Donovan Mitchell was NBA ready. Even Zion is NBA ready. AD as talented as he was wasn't NBA ready. John is a 8.5 on offense rocking a -0.0 offensive RAPTOR, 0.32 ORPM, a 1.7 WAR and a 1.33 RPM. That's not overly impressive. Christian Wood is doing better although they are in completely different roles and MPG. 

 

How many extremely talented NBA ready guys have did anything but impact the game in the NBA year 1? Name one? 

 

Bagley is not healthy. The last time he was, he outplayed John for team USA vastly. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by NBASupes

[marco102]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Your point is terrible. There are not comparable parts. Toppin and Collins as Toppin is clearly NBA ready. Why would you compare him to a prospect like Edwards who's like Trae out of college and em. Lillard is NBA ready. Donovan Mitchell was NBA ready. Even Zion is NBA ready. AD as talented as he was wasn't NBA ready. 

 

How many extremely talented NBA ready guys have did anything but impact the game in the NBA year 1? Name one? 

You seemed to have avoided my question about who was better between John Collins or Marvin Bagley III, because you were projecting Bagley to be this amazing player.  Mind you he very well could be. My overall point is yes some players may seem NBA ready, but they are not going to come in and be as good as John on the offensive side of the ball as far as efficiency, scoring and rebounding.  

It seems as if you're virtually guaranteeing Toppin will do that when there's no way to know.  I mean I understand you strongly believe in your data and film.  I just feel you really short change John overall because of your fear of his contract.  If he agrees to 4 years $80 million over the off season, I believe you'll do a complete 180 on John.

Just shouldn't let his contract talks cloud your judgment on how good he is as a 22 year old. 

I also have watched plenty of Obi and think he'll be a really solid player.  Thinking he'll have a Dame, or Donovan Mitchell effect will be misleading.  They are ball dominant  guards and had the ball a ton to put up their stats.  A power forward won't have that opportunity as much.  Zion is a different beast all together.  He's about 100 pounds bigger than Toppin and most likely much stronger which allows him to bully the smaller players and out athletic the bigs.  Toppin won't have that same type of mismatch when he comes to the NBA.  Defensively there will be someone who can match up with him much more easily.

 

[kg01]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Your point is terrible. There are not comparable parts. Toppin and Collins as Toppin is clearly NBA ready. Why would you compare him to a prospect like Edwards who's like Trae out of college and em. Lillard is NBA ready. Donovan Mitchell was NBA ready. Even Zion is NBA ready. AD as talented as he was wasn't NBA ready. John is a 8.5 on offense rocking a -0.0 offensive RAPTOR, 0.32 ORPM, a 1.7 WAR and a 1.33 RPM. That's not overly impressive. Christian Wood is doing better although they are in completely different roles and MPG. 

 

How many extremely talented NBA ready guys have did anything but impact the game in the NBA year 1? Name one? 

 

Bagley is not healthy. The last time he was, he outplayed John for team USA vastly. 

You're being unfair.  All he saying is there should be some hesitation in suggesting any rookie will come in and need no acclimation period.  You're basically saying Toppin will come in and out-perform Collins as if he's just a world-beater.  Chances are he'll need some time to adjust.

And, of course, if he does need time you'll just say "oh he was in a bad situation".