Donovan Mitchell is why you don't pass on Obi Toppin

[nathan2331]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Even for 10 minutes a game?

If both players are getting 32 minutes a game (which I expect at minimum they'd both be getting for their careers in the future), that's at least 16 minutes they have to share on the court.

With how rotations go that could be closer to half the game. Our defense would be trash for that time, at least that's my expectation. If we draft Toppin I wont complain, I just think we could do better in this draft and Toppin would do better somewhere else.

[Peoriabird]

6 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

If both players are getting 32 minutes a game (which I expect at minimum they'd both be getting for their careers in the future)

Who was the last rookie non starter to get 32 minutes per game on the Hawks?

[nathan2331]

10 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Who was the last rookie non starter to get 32 minutes per game on the Hawks?

I expect our draft pick to be on the Hawks for more than one year.

Edited September 2, 2020 by nathan2331

[Peoriabird]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

I expect our draft pick will be on the Hawks for more than one year.

So every player will stay the same so you can make a judgement on the fit 2 years down the road??

[nathan2331]

11 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So every player will stay the same so you can make a judgement on the fit 2 years down the road??

It's my projection, not fact. Am I not allowed to an opinion anymore? If you disagree, fine. I just think the pair would always be bad defensively. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

It's my projection, not fact. Am I not allowed to an opinion anymore? If you disagree, fine. I just think the pair would always be bad defensively. Maybe I'm wrong.

Do you think John has improved his defense from his rookie season or is he the same?

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, nathan2331 said:

I've been watching the same games you do. Our bigs literally need to be able to take a dribble and pass. There's nothing difficult about their role in the regular offensive flow. How is it that Grant couldn't fit, but is fine in two other offenses, one of which has for sure has more off-ball motion in Denver.

While I don't watch many Nuggets games, I've seen some, and there's nothing about Grant that makes me think he couldn't play in our offense. The reads he'd have to make in Atlanta are not difficult. And while he's a bit error-prone it's not like he can't handle the ball at all.

I don't even like Grant like that, you're just the only person I've seen who seems insulted I'm even suggesting his presence on the team and I don't get it. I'm suggesting him as a backup, not a foundational starting piece over one of our core players.

And I don't hate Toppin, honestly if I was Minnesota's GM I'd take him #1 considering who they have on their roster and the fact that all of these prospects are more or less on a similar tier to me. All these guys are so flawed in their individual ways I'd absolutely draft for fit and future projections of their roster. That's where I take issue with Toppin on the Hawks.

Decision making is important for our system, just because Dedmon and now Capela is the only ones capable of this isn't saying it's not needed but if you lack decision making like JC, at least be great at movement but Grant lacks that. Bruno shows potential at both.

He struggles with the fit in Denver but was a great fit in OKC. Reactive player. Not proactive on both ends.

I don't dislike Grant, just dislike him on the Hawks or in a system like ours. 

I would take him #1 period. Everyone else is this draft is major wildcards but I can understand if you don't. 

[Peoriabird]

7 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

It's my projection, not fact. Am I not allowed to an opinion anymore? If you disagree, fine. I just think the pair would always be bad defensively. Maybe I'm wrong.

And of course according to your way of thinking, Cam will never be good enough offensively to be a starting player in the league if you look at his offensive numbers from college and his 1st year in the pros.

[nathan2331]

18 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Do you think John has improved his defense from his rookie season or is he the same?

John has improved, but we need him to be better. This isn't controversial, John himself has said he needs to be better.

12 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

And of course according to your way of thinking, Cam will never be good enough offensively to be a starting player in the league if you look at his offensive numbers from college and his 1st year in the pros.

I've seen these guys play, I'm evaluating them on what I've seen. Not just what their stats say. Cam I think highly of, Toppin's defense, not so much.

Having two bigs that can't guard a larger center like Embiid or Lopez and also cannot stay in front of a bigger wing like Tatum or Siakam is not going to work in my opinion. Again you are free to disagree or present evidence as to why I'm wrong. I change my mind all the time on things.

Edited September 2, 2020 by nathan2331

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, nathan2331 said:

Having two bigs that can't guard a larger center like Embiid or Lopez and also cannot stay in front of a bigger wing like Tatum or Siakam is not going to work in my opinion.

Just because you have guys on your team doesn't mean you have to use your roster in a way that will put them at a disadvantage unless you think Lloyd Pierce is just that stupid....Don't answer that!  Toppin will be fine in this league.  Zion ain't the greatest defensive player either but I didn't hear you screaming to the Hawks not to draft him.

[nathan2331]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Just because you have guys on your team doesn't mean you have to use your roster in a way that will put them at a disadvantage unless you think Lloyd Pierce is just that stupid....Don't answer that!  Toppin will go fine in this league.  Zion ain't the greatest defensive player either but I didn't hear you screaming to the Hawks not to draft him.

See now that's a fair point. I would've taken Zion with no hesitation and he had a lot more questions about fit than Toppin does. I suppose the difference between those two is that I thought Zion should be playing minutes next to two bigs (at least one who can shoot). At his current weight that can't happen, but I thought he should've been losing weight from his time at Duke.

[marco102]

1 hour ago, Vol4ever said:

If you had to pick one with no bias who would it be in the future?

Giannis cause his defense is miles better than any other player listed.

[Peoriabird]

8 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

See now that's a fair point. I would've taken Zion with no hesitation and he had a lot more questions about fit than Toppin does. I suppose the difference between those two is that I thought Zion should be playing minutes next to two bigs (at least one who can shoot). At his current weight that can't happen, but I thought he should've been losing weight from his time at Duke.

Zion is an undersized power forward who possesses limited offensive skills and no defense...He had zero steals and blocks in the bubble but you don't judge him as harshly why?

[nathan2331]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

Zion is an undersized power forward who possesses limited offensive skills and no defense...He had zero steals and blocks in the bubble but you don't judge him as harshly why?

Ain't this the Obi Toppin thread? You're the one bringing up Zion, why would I be criticizing him?

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

Ain't this the Obi Toppin thread? You're the one bringing up Zion, why would I be criticizing him?

Because your main criticism of Toppin would be the same with Zion but yet you wanted Zion...What's the logic?

[nathan2331]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Because your main criticism of Toppin would be the same with Zion but yet you wanted Zion...What's the logic?

I already admitted it was a bit hypocritical to be 100% in support of drafting Zion and then question Toppin's fit. I told you I thought Zion should be playing some minutes at SF before he was drafted. He obviously can't do that at the weight he was playing in at the bubble, but I didn't think he would balloon like he has. What's your point, is Zion useless now?

Zion is a defensive stat monster when 100%, obviously not the version we're currently seeing. So I was wrong about him gaining weight, that doesn't mean Toppin is going to be a good defender. They have no correlation, again you can disagree with me all you want, I've already said if Toppin is Atlanta I'd be fine with it.

[Peoriabird]

7 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 I told you I thought Zion should be playing some minutes at SF before he was drafted.

How was Zion going to play Sm. forward with no jump shot, ball handling skills or play making skills while being a bad perimeter defender?  This is extreme hypocrisy

[nathan2331]

10 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

How was Zion going to play Sm. forward with no jump shot, ball handling skills or play making skills while being a bad perimeter defender?  This is extreme hypocrisy

Zion right now averages more assists per game and per 36 than Reddish or Hunter. Saying he has no playmaking or ball handling skills is false.

[Peoriabird]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

Zion right now averages more assists per game and per 36 than Reddish or Hunter. Saying he has no playmaking or ball handling skills is false.

Because Hunter and Reddish play with a ball dominant point guard.  But this doesn't make him a play maker or a ball handler.

[nathan2331]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Because Hunter and Reddish play with a ball dominant point guard.  But this doesn't make him a play maker or a ball handler.

Zion doesn't play with Jrue and Lonzo? Zion averaged more assists than both of them in college too. He is a very talented player. Not just stats, but watching him gave me this impression he could play some SF. I don't like him just because he jumps really high. You. Are. Wrong.