Donovan Mitchell is why you don't pass on Obi Toppin

[NBASupes]

17 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Stiff hips, slow feet, high center of gravity.  Not to mention awareness issues.  Can't get into defensive stance.  Has to load to jump which negates his leaping ability on the defensive end (no timing).

On the positive side, awareness issues can be fixed.  See, I'm not all negative.

Stiff hips can be improved as we saw just this year with Miles Bridges in comparison to his rookie season. We have seen signs which Mike(DX/ESPN) mentioned that Obi can improve on this area. He doesn't have slow feet. He does have a high center of gravity and this is where people like me see where he needs to improve. You can improve flexibility but players with a high center of gravity really can get in trouble in space. He can obviously do things to lessen the blow like have a high feel for defense and be a playmaker on defense which he shows flashes of which is common with bigs like Nurkic and Jokic who also have high center of gravity. You can say, these guys are true centers and post defense is their calling card which is true but Obi has shown that he can defend on the perimeter and make plays. He's not exactly Nurk or Joker where they avoid defending in space at all cost if possible. That still doesn't change the fact that in space, he can be food at times. 

We literally have game film of him getting into defensive stance, I don't know how you can say this and claim you have watched him play. I am just going to assumed you seen improvement area videos and clips where he struggled and just assumed this is an every possession issue. 

It depends on where he's at about the loading part. This can be seen when you watch full gametape and not just clips where he struggled. 

I am sorry man, I just don't think we see eye to eye on this. Most of his issues can be resolved, now it will prevent him from being an impact defensive player but it shouldn't stop him from becoming a decent defensive player in the long run. 

His awareness in there when engaged. That's what matters most. It's an issue if it's never there or he can't handle responsibility. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

So wait.... Mitchell, Tatum, now Vince..... just tell us, what position does Toppin actually play? And can you explain who's game do you think currently best illustrates his future fit on this team?

He's an offensive mix of Al Horford, Amar'e, JC, and Blake Griffin as PROSPECTS. Not players in their prime. 

Horford - BBIQ, movement IQ, feel for the game, passing, vision, PnP potential, risk taking passes, ability to run numerous actions and scheme versatile. - His most important comparison. 

Amar'e - Quickness, First step, explosiveness, Agility, Speed, Size, Movement, Body Type, Frame. 

JC - Rim running, finishing, and PnR potential. 

Griffin - Passing out of the post, Aggressiveness attacking the rim, open court handles

 

His fit will be playing Jabari Parker's old role as the 6th/7th man in year 1. Simple as that. 

[kg01]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I am sorry man, I just don't think we see eye to eye on this.

Yeah, I thought we agreed on this weeks ago. 

As I said earlier, my only pushback on you is that you speak about him in absolutes.  There's a lot here that is unknown and if everything you say about him is true he'd be the surefire #1 pick.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

Yeah, I thought we agreed on this weeks ago. 

As I said earlier, my only pushback on you is that you speak about him in absolutes.  There's a lot here that is unknown and if everything you say about him is true he'd be the surefire #1 pick.

Honestly, we both been speaking in absolutes in this thread. I am just far more aggressive in pushing it. 

Honestly, he should be a surefire #1 pick. Where I think he will be in year 3 compared to everyone else in this class is just massively better off than most. 

It's just hard to go against LaMelo. He can put up a triple double early in his career. He gets stocks, he's a stat even if he's not an impact. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by NBASupes

[nathan2331]

9 hours ago, NBASupes said:

It wasn't a losing one in VC 1st year with the Hawks. Every combo was bad in VC 2nd year because he was fried.

Y'all do realize Toppin and JC is different. I understand both are movement players who happen to be elite finishers at similar height and close in weight but Toppin doesn't operate in the same space. If you watched the full games of Dayton, you would see all of this. If you don't, just watch this

 

 

 

My objection to Toppin on the Hawks is entirely his defense. Pairing him with Collins in the frontcourt will be problematic. Collins's backup should be someone who can stay in front of bigger wings because we know Collins can't. Obviously defense is more than what an individual can do one-on-one, but at the same time we need guys who are versatile specifically because we know Trae, John and Capela are not.

[NBASupes]

 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, nathan2331 said:

My objection to Toppin on the Hawks is entirely his defense. Pairing him with Collins in the frontcourt will be problematic. Collins's backup should be someone who can stay in front of bigger wings because we know Collins can't. Obviously defense is more than what an individual can do one-on-one, but at the same time we need guys who are versatile specifically because we know Trae, John and Capela are not.

Maybe it is problematic defensively but do you want to pass on a system and scheme perfect offensive player because of fit with JC. Trae, Cam, and Capela are the only players that really matter on this squad. JC matters too but if we are bringing Obi in, this is going to be a straight up competition especially in year 2. At the end of the day, we need to win a lot more games, get the players who can help you win you a lot more games. 

[nathan2331]

36 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Maybe it is problematic defensively but do you want to pass on a system and scheme perfect offensive player because of fit with JC. Trae, Cam, and Capela are the only players that really matter on this squad. JC matters too but if we are bringing Obi in, this is going to be a straight up competition especially in year 2. At the end of the day, we need to win a lot more games, get the players who can help you win you a lot more games. 

Unless I thought there was no one else worth drafting, yes I'd pass on him. I think Toppin will be a good player, but his impact is limited on a Hawks team that doesn't need him 30+ minutes a game.

No question he'll work on offense, but defensively he can't play next to Collins unless one of them learns how to defend wings, or becomes a superior rim protector. If I thought Collins or Toppin could handle 16+ minutes at center my opinion would be a lot different, but we can't be asking them to do that against centers like Vucevic, Lopez, Embiid, Adebayo, Sabonis, etc. We can try it but don't expect it to work when it hasn't in the past.

Considering the quality we now have between Capela/Dedmon/Bruno I think we're better off with 3-4 combo guy behind Collins. I know you're not a fan of Jerami Grant, but he's exactly who I think we need.

[NBASupes]

14 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

Unless I thought there was no one else worth drafting, yes I'd pass on him. I think Toppin will be a good player, but his impact is limited on a Hawks team that doesn't need him 30+ minutes a game.

No question he'll work on offense, but defensively he can't play next to Collins unless one of them learns how to defend wings, or becomes a superior rim protector. If I thought Collins or Toppin could handle 16+ minutes at center my opinion would be a lot different, but we can't be asking them to do that against centers like Vucevic, Lopez, Embiid, Adebayo, Sabonis, etc. We can try it but don't expect it to work when it hasn't in the past.

Considering the quality we now have between Capela/Dedmon/Bruno I think we're better off with 3-4 combo guy behind Collins. I know you're not a fan of Jerami Grant, but he's exactly who I think we need.

There are guys worth drafting outside of Toppin. 

Deni

Okoro 

Okongwu

Ball

Edwards 

Wiseman

But other than Ball, none of them come with that potential for a great WAR or impact on winning regular season games. I don't agree with you, I think having him makes a great difference. We saw this squad without JC, 4-21. Having that backup 4 matters in our system where the bigs get so many touches. 

I obviously think he will be better than just a good player which is why I am in full promotion of Toppin.

As I have said before, it all depends on the personnel on the court. There will be times where you can play the two at the same time. 

Once again, I disagree. We already got a combo 3/4 guy in Hunter. We need another legit movement 4 who can space for the floor. JC is the only one and he's demanding the max. We need to protect Trae offensively just like Capela protects him defensively. 

I am clearly on the opposite of you on this, Jerami Grant??? You trying to make me go to the hospital for morning sickness and I am not even a woman

Edited September 1, 2020 by NBASupes

[Peoriabird]

13 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

Unless I thought there was no one else worth drafting, yes I'd pass on him. I think Toppin will be a good player, but his impact is limited on a Hawks team that doesn't need him 30+ minutes a game.

No question he'll work on offense, but defensively he can't play next to Collins unless one of them learns how to defend wings, or becomes a superior rim protector. If I thought Collins or Toppin could handle 16+ minutes at center my opinion would be a lot different, but we can't be asking them to do that against centers like Vucevic, Lopez, Embiid, Adebayo, Sabonis, etc. We can try it but don't expect it to work when it hasn't in the past.

Considering the quality we now have between Capela/Dedmon/Bruno I think we're better off with 3-4 combo guy behind Collins. I know you're not a fan of Jerami Grant, but he's exactly who I think we need.

I think Toppin's post defense will be ok because of his length.  Plus a JC/Toppin would run a slower F/C combo out of the gym.

[nathan2331]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

There are guys worth drafting outside of Toppin. 

Deni

Okoro 

Okongwu

Ball

Edwards 

Wiseman

But other than Ball, none of them come with that potential for a great WAR or impact on winning regular season games. I don't agree with you, I think having him makes a great difference. We saw this squad without JC, 4-21. Having that backup 4 matters in our system where the bigs get so many touches. 

I obviously think he will be better than just a good player which is why I am in full promotion of Toppin.

As I have said before, it all depends on the personnel on the court. There will be times where you can play the two at the same time. 

Once again, I disagree. We already got a combo 3/4 guy in Hunter. We need another legit movement 4 who can space for the floor. JC is the only one and he's demanding the max. We need to protect Trae offensively just like Capela protects him defensively. 

I am clearly on the opposite of you on this, Jerami Grant??? You trying to make me go to the hospital for morning sickness and I am not even a woman

Let me be very clear, Grant is not a better player than Toppin. He is in my opinion a better fit on this roster though. Having Toppin available for every minute that John is not playing is more valuable than having Grant would be. However if John is in the game I'd rather have Grant and his defensive versatility than Toppin's offensive ability.

Our core doesn't struggle to score points. We do struggle to get stops. Toppin wouldn't help us at all on defense. That's my objection.

Grant is not a great offensive player, he is however a guy that can knock down the shots he does take. He's gotten better driving to the rim. He's a good lob threat. He can be erratic at times but he's not unplayable in a Denver offense that has players constantly cutting to the basket. You keep referencing the amount of touches our bigs get, but they are not responsible for playmaking in our system.

We do have one combo 3/4 guy in Hunter, I'm just arguing we should get another. I'm not sure why you hate Grant so much. We're talking about a backup for Collins who we might only need 20 minutes a night. Even if you don't like him, why is mentioning him so beneath you?

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

Let me be very clear, Grant is not a better player than Toppin. He is in my opinion a better fit on this roster though.

No. I couldn't read the rest. When you say Grant is a better fit than Toppin, I really can't take what you are going to say seriously anymore when the topic is Obi Toppin or Jerami Grant. 

This is like saying Robert Covington is a better fit for us than Giannis 

Edited September 1, 2020 by NBASupes

[nathan2331]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

No. I couldn't read the rest. When you say Grant is a better fit than Toppin, I really can't take what you are going to say seriously anymore when the topic is Obi Toppin or Jerami Grant. 

Read the next sentence.

[NBASupes]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

Read the next sentence.

I thought you guys would have learned from Damian Jones that we need more than a lob threat from our bigs.

[nathan2331]

Just now, NBASupes said:

I thought you guys would have learned from Damian Jones that we need more than a lob threat from our bigs.

The appeal of Jerami Grant is not that he jumps really high...

[Peoriabird]

Toppin/Collins would beat slow centers/Power forwards down the floor every time for easy opportunities.  It would take special scorers to overcome that advantage

[NBASupes]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

The appeal of Jerami Grant is not that he jumps really high...

Yep but it's not that much there. In our system, bigs need to have a good feel for the game. Something Grant lacks

[NBASupes]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

Toppin/Collins would beat slow center/Power forward down the floor every time for easy opportunities.  It would take a special scorer to overcome that advantage

There is so much we can do with such a special scorer like Toppin. Collins is already one of the fastest bigs in the NBA and you add Toppin who has a jetpack on his back

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

There is so much we can do with such a special scorer like Toppin. Collins is already one of the fastest bigs in the NBA and you add Toppin who has a jetpack on his back

We're talking about 40% 3 point shooting and speed from our front court.  Topping isn't a terrible rebounder either.  Add Hunter and Cam in the mix for length and you have one long fast line up.  I'm sold!

[nathan2331]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Yep but it's not that much there. In our system, bigs need to have a good feel for the game. Something Grant lacks

Let me ask you, what happens when we play the Celtics, and they got Tatum at the 4? Or the Sixers with Harris, Simmons and Embiid at center? Giannis at the 4? You're not running their teams off the court. We've seen Collins limitations, not sure how doubling down on them makes us a better basketball team. We might score a lot of points but again, we won't be forcing many stops.

As a backup, Grant is good enough. I have a very hard time understanding how Grant would be a disaster in Atlanta, but has been fine for the Nuggets, and the Thunder a year before. Grant can run too, even if he can't dribble since y'all think we're going to run circles around teams.