Jalen Johnson may be better than De'Andre Hunter and Cam Reddish

[REHawksFan]

23 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Still waiting on that film of the ONE game from Hunter this season where his IMPACT was exceptional.

It's like one of those things where you just know it when you see it.  You may have to wear these to see it though...

 

Also, you may be left like this....

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Thanks everyone for really going the extra mile to ensure Dre absolutely balls out in game one.  Let's do this!

 

LOL . . I'm trying my best man.

If he comes out flat tomorrow, this fan base might explode.

[warcore]

On 4/12/2023 at 7:40 AM, Hawkmoor said:

DeAndre Hunter is a baller.

[Peoriabird]

Its funny how the national media including Charles Barkley likes Dre and Hates Trae while this message board members are the exact opposite except a select few

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

All we're asking Dre to be, is great in ONE area.  Just one.

Dre isn't going to be great in one area (unless you get really specific, he does play elite POA defense on bigger wings), but he's not paid to be elite at any major facet.  He's Tobias Harris on a better contract and we should be thankful to have him because he still has reasonable upside imo -- it's not asking a lot for him to imrove his shooting, handles, playmaking, and even rebounding.

[warcore]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:48 AM, Peoriabird said:

So @JayBirdHawk I don't understand the incorporation of that Dallas video...It literally contradicts your point.

She's one of those posters that doesn't have an agenda. So she simply shares facts. Thank you for sharing the full story @JayBirdHawk

[REHawksFan]

There's nothing funny about anyone on this board hating the best player to wear a Hawks jersey since Nique.  

Also, aligning oneself with the national media....

[warcore]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:29 AM, Peoriabird said:

No one during this thread ever mention Dre's team impact

His defense impacts the team. Literally this entire thread is about his impact. Why are you being so difficult? 

[AHF]

Right now we have Jay asking for tape of one game this season where Hunter was elite and multiple posters asking for identification of metrics or other numbers that should be used for measuring defensive impact.  So far crickets on both.

As far as Dre's "team impact" that is the exact question I posed to both Supes and Peoriabird.  First, whether the team's defense should be better with him on the floor than with him off the floor and second whether we could measure this by use of ON/OFF numbers rather than individual metrics to the the extent they can't find any individual metrics that are useful in measuring defensive impact.

I do think he is a valuable part of the rotation especially on defense but I've not found a good way to substantiate that with numbers and I can't remember any NBA player who I couldn't find some metric or series of metrics to tell that story.  Example:  The Hawks gave up a 97.4 ORTG to opponents when Thabo was on the floor in 2014-15 and a 105.0 ORTG to opponents when Thabo wasn't on the floor for a net +7.6 difference in opponent ORTG.  He also was 2nd on the team in DRTG, 2nd on the team in DWS/48, and 1st on the team in DBPM.  We don't have a problem making the case that he was a hugely impactful defender by looking at how the team's defense performed with and without him or by looking at individual metrics.  (He also wasn't someone who dominated box score stats.  His box score numbers are solid but not exceptional like you would get looking at someone like Deke who was a league leader in key defensive box score stats.)

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Its funny how the national media including Charles Barkley like Dre and Hates Trae while this message board members are the exact opposite except a select few

 

I agree.

And Barkley is wrong a lot with his takes.

 

This may be a bad analogy, so I apologize to all of my people in law enforcement, and supporters of law enforcement in advance.  So let me soften it up a bit.

If Dre and Tre were "movie" cops, Dre would be the one making sure everything is safe and secure out on the perimeter.  He'd be setting up the yellow caution tape.  He'd be telling people to "stay back, stay back". He might even set up a phone link to talk to the criminal.

What Dre is NOT going to do, is die . . . because he's not going to put himself in harm's way.  He's going to be the guy making sure that nothing interferes with the operation, but he's not going to put himself in the line of fire.

 

Trae, on the other hand, is going to be Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon.  He's going to do borderline dirty tactics to get information. He's going to cuss out his Lieutenant or Chief, because they're trying to reign him in.  He's going to take risks to save the woman that might get himself hurt or killed.  And if he's too reckless, he might even get the hostage killed.

But Trae is going to "try".  And he's going to do everything in his power to win. And if he dies in the process, so be it.  But he's going to try to win.  And because of that, he may be hated by the criminals, and even by the cops he works with.  But he's going to try.

And unlike Dre, he's willing to DIE trying.

 

 

[warcore]

39 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Its funny how the national media including Charles Barkley like Dre and Hates Trae while this message board members are the exact opposite except a select few

What's funny is that Charles Barkley is famous for saying stupid things and being wrong. Go work for BSPN if you agree with the national media so much. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by warcore

[Peoriabird]

@AHF @NBASupes brought up an equally valid point that metrics say that jokic is the best defender in the league which can't possibly be

true

[JayBirdHawk]

Let it be understood, the Hawks are better with Hunter playing than not, in junction with or other wings. 

HE IS A SOLID PLAYER ON BOTH OFFENSE AND DEFENSE! But I want more than solid. I have been saying sine we had our plethora of Wings in Huerter, Cam, Dre...that one of them needed to be the 'next' to rise alongside Trae. Hunter is the only one left. I WANT MORE!

 

1 hour ago, warcore said:

She's one of those posters that doesn't have an agenda. So she simply shares facts. Thank you for sharing the full story @JayBirdHawk

...sometimes I do 

[Peoriabird]

I was going to say something sexest like you ______ always want more but I won't 

[Diesel]

The problem that underlies everything that nobody is saying. 

• Dre is a high lottery pick. 
• He's now a recipient of a new extension.

many people think he didn't deserve either.  There's nothing that he does that they can call elite... regardless of how often somebody tries to feed it to you.   There is nothing that he does that shows him to be better than Taurean Prince (that's a hot take).  Prince probably has better defensive stats. 

The thing is that Hunter does one thing.  Stand in front of his man.   He doesn't cut off passing lanes.  He doesn' t block shots.  He doesn't push players off their spot.  He doesn't try to deny the pass.  It's a meritless existence because he doesn't do any of the thing that good defenders are rewarded for doing.   He just makes sure that he's in front of his man.

The frustrating part is based on his build he can do much more.   And in the Hearts of some posters, they are praying that he will do more to prove them right.. but he's satisfied just coasting.   Marvin Williams Like. 

 

 

[AHF]

58 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

@AHF @NBASupes brought up an equally valid point that metrics say that jokic is the best defender in the league which can't be possibly true

I'm putting questions to you in bold to differentiate from the rhetorical questions here:

Let's see which stats and metrics have him as best in the league:

Blocks - No

Steals - No

Defensive Rebounds - No

DRTG - No

Defensive Win Shares - No

Defensive RAPTOR - No

DBPM - Yes

 

So what do we do with that one statistic?  Well, I'd start by asking if there are any reasons Jokic might rate high in that category?

Is it because Jokic is the third best defensive rebounder in the league and doesn't let opponents get second chances?  Probably.

Is it because Jokic is #2 in generating steals among big man?  Probably.

Is it because Denver gives up roughly 3.3 fewer points per 100 possessions when he is on the floor?  Probably.

Do I buy DBPM's "conclusion" that Jokic was the best defender this year?  Nope.  Do I buy that he is a huge positive for Denver's defense?  Yes.  Why?  Because they are much better defensively when he plays.  

Bear in mind that however the highlight reels look, Jokic compares pretty favorably with some of the the best defensive centers in the league in defending opponent shot opportunities:

Opponent efg% 

Embiid .584

Jokic .587

Bam .617

When he is holding opposing centers to basically the same % as Embiid (who I consider a defensive standout) and doing much better than Bam and near the league lead in defensive rebounds and near the league lead in steals for big men I can at least see the likely genesis of having a strong number in this category.

How does DBPM fair from an eye test perspective - Does this look like a list of good defenders?

Does this generally look like a list of weak defenders?

That is kind of how I would approach that.  I am not shocked when there are outliers on defensive metrics so I would personally look at a swatch of them and look for consistent themes.

So I'll ask again, which statistics do you two @NBASupes and @Peoriabird consider meaningful on defense, if any?  Not perfect but meaningful - i.e., helpful in identifying players who help or hurt their team on defense?  

That is inclusive of individual metrics like DefensiveRAPTOR but also team numbers like DRTG or On/Off stats.  

I do fully get the notion that not all of these numbers can or should be used in isolation but I still think there is value in the story they have to tell and that trends across multiple metrics are probably meaningful - especially if you bother to contextualize them.

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Let it be understood, the Hawks are better with Hunter playing than not, in junction with or other wings. 

HE IS A SOLID PLAYER ON BOTH OFFENSE AND DEFENSE! But I want more than solid. I have been saying sine we had our plethora of Wings in Huerter, Cam, Dre...that one of them needed to be the 'next' to rise alongside Trae. Hunter is the only one left. I WANT MORE!

 

...sometimes I do 

I would also love for Dre to break out as an all-star level player, but at this point, I have stopped hoping or wanting that to happen because I just don't see it.  He's a solid player that is very useful for our roster as he can slot into almost any lineup and shore up other players' weaknesses on offense and defense.  That's his real strength -- versatility, in my opinion at least. 

I think the reason a lot of people are frustrated with Dre is because of his size and perceived potential.  I used to think his slow methodical play was a result of playing for Virginia for a couple years, but now I just think that's who he is.  That's just his game and him playing to his abilities.  I still hope he can shore up his handles a bit, maybe be coached to rebound better, and work on his shot selection to be more efficient, but I don't think he's going to ascend to be an all-star level player (like I was hoping when we drafted him all the way up to a year or so ago).

[Peoriabird]

So  seeing outliers make you believe in the metrics more or less?  And how do you determine which players are the outliers if you are using these  very metrics to define a player's abilities

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

The problem that underlies everything that nobody is saying. 

• Dre is a high lottery pick. 
• He's now a recipient of a new extension.

many people think he didn't deserve either.  There's nothing that he does that they can call elite... regardless of how often somebody tries to feed it to you.   There is nothing that he does that shows him to be better than Taurean Prince (that's a hot take).  Prince probably has better defensive stats. 

The thing is that Hunter does one thing.  Stand in front of his man.   He doesn't cut off passing lanes.  He doesn' t block shots.  He doesn't push players off their spot.  He doesn't try to deny the pass.  It's a meritless existence because he doesn't do any of the thing that good defenders are rewarded for doing.   He just makes sure that he's in front of his man.

The frustrating part is based on his build he can do much more.   And in the Hearts of some posters, they are praying that he will do more to prove them right.. but he's satisfied just coasting.   Marvin Williams Like. 

 

 

 

I truly now understand your frustration with Marvin back in the day.  I was one of the ones who was OK with Marvin's increment progression, but you were always right about him.  And yes, it did get to the point where you were beating a dead horse.  I don't want to get like that with Hunter.

But I understand fully now why you did it.

[RandomFan]