Jalen Johnson may be better than De'Andre Hunter and Cam Reddish

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

All of those ratings that speak of are team ratings.  But when you watch him that video, He appear to be an elite individual defender even to @JayBirdHawk who was making the argument that he wasn't.

I'm not really interested in looking at a highlight clip of a player in a particular game when trying to assess their overall impact on team performance on offense or defense.  I'm trying to get to a conversation with you and Supes about how that should be measured.  

You could look at this video of Tony Delk and make the case that he was an elite offensive player but I would tell you to look at a bunch of other data and demonstrate that while he may have been in elite in some individual games his overall impact was not that positive.

I would look at individual metrics like his TS% (pretty terrible), his offensive BPM (negative), his offensive WS/48 (moderately good but far from elite), etc.

I would look at team impact when he was on the floor and looking at that 2000-01 season, he was significantly positive on defense but had a terrible impact on defense that more than offset his offensive contributions.  (I.e., the team's defense with him in the game was garbage but the offense was much better with him playing.)  

We can have a discussion at which of these numbers are most significant.  That is the discussion I'm trying to have.  What numbers do you look at to see defensive impact?

 

[Peoriabird]

@AHF You are a professional at moving the goal post.  No one during this thread ever mention Dre's team impact and even after you brought is up in several of your post, you continue to be the only poster bring that up.  Feel free to make a separate thread if you like

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Solid as a overall defender, yes. Elite as in elite defensive versatility, yes.

Your definition means that any player who can guard multiple positions is "elite". 

Aight... Let's see..

What's the difference between Hunter and Draymond defensively?

What's the difference between Hunter and Rodman defensively?

What's  the difference between Hunter and Marcus Smart defensively?

What's the difference between Hunter and Lebron defensively?

What the difference between Hunter and Shawn Marion  Defensively?

 

Here's the things... those guys have Elite Defensive Versatility.   They guard more than 1 position.. AND They make a great impact with their defense.   Hunter doesn't enter their stratosphere.  Hell, he's not in their same galaxy. 

If you want to misuse Elite... then you better start giving it some kind of designations...

Like Superior Elite,   Elite Elite, and just elite. 

 

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

@AHF You are a profession at moving the goal post.  No one during this thread ever mention Dre's team impact and even after you brought is up in several of your post, you continue to be the only poster bring that up.  Feel free to make a separate thread if you like

I am just interested in having a conversation about what numbers you think should be used to assess the defensive impact of Hunter or anyone else.  That is part of this conversation.  Did you not read these posts?

11 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

It's the lack of impact type plays from Dre, that we're down on.  Almost every single one of his offensive AND defensive metrics are sub par. There's a reason for that.

• The Hawks defense does not improve dramatically when he's in the game
• The Hawks offense does not improve dramatically when he's in the game
• He makes very few energy type plays
• He doesn't make positive offensive plays, unless he's scoring the ball, because he's a poor rebounder and facilitator

But we're the stupid ones for not seeing Dre's value?

Where is the value?

Where is the value?

 

Where is the value?

 

Where's the value?

 

Is this the value?

 

This is not a dumb fan base Supes.  We see what we see every night.

Dre is a solid AVERAGE player who gives us mediocre game impact on a nightly basis.  If his shot isn't falling, you may as well sit him on the bench, because

• He's not going to provide you with hustle plays
• He's not going to shut down his man
• And he's not going to impact the game with timely passing.

 

11 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Come on Supes.  You know I don't say stuff just to be saying it. 

Even if people don't agree with what I say, I'm always going to have receipts that show where my argument is coming from.

He's been excellent with Bey, no doubt.  But he's been + on the floor for most of the year . . when he finally got rotation minutes.

 

 

But it's crazy.  He excels with one player.   But sucks with another certain player on the team.

 

Some things just aren't coincidences.

 

NorthCyde posted lots of different numbers that are intended to measure defensive impact.  I posted a more team focused approach.  What are the best numbers for this and why?  The reason I asked about team metrics is because I think that takes the issue of reliance on counting stats that is a part of certain individual defensive metrics off the table.  (I.e., I thought that Supes might view this as a better measure than something like DefensiveRAPTOR).

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

@JayBirdHawk  He still is Deandre Hunter right?  So they are the same people with the same ability right?  So let me get this straight... if someone isn't displaying an ability shown in the past, you think it means that they no long have that ability?  Think about what you are saying. Does it really make any sense?  Trae young and John Collins are having horrible shooting years so does that mean that Trae Young can no longer shoot 3's?.

Hunter is two years removed from the video I posted and that was one game not an entire season or part of a season.

Collins and Trae had horrible shooting to start the season, they have both improved over the latter half of the season.  So I'm taking data from 3+ years vs the 3 months this season. 

Has Dre ever had a stretch where he is in the discussion for Elite defensive player? stacking up vs similar type big wings?

Again, Hunter is a SOLID defensive player, just not ELITE.

[Peoriabird]

Sometimes coaching matters people!  Schemes matter and in Dre's case, he and John get penalized for being aggressive.  If y'all just want to continue to target Dre like many of you love to do and elevate others, Knock yourselves out.  But in reality, Fans of the hawks should not have to defend players who play a vital role on their favorite team to other fans but this seems to be the norm here

[Final_quest]

That Dallas opening night game where Luka was completely out of shape does not show Hunter as an elite defender.  It’s crazy how much people read into that one night.  

[sturt]

Can I try?

 

There is production. And there is capacity for production.

Reminds me of Stephen Covey... 7 Habits of Highly Effective People... and his fans will remember he called it P/PC Balance. To the degree that the circle of one's capacity for production and the circle of actual production practically overlap, ultimate efficiency is reached.

Fair enough to suggest that Dre has exceptional capacity, arguably elite. His production hasn't been consistently equal to his capacity. But even that being the case, his production remains among the best and most important assets to the team's defensive effort as a whole.

[NBASupes]

42 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Sometimes coaching matter people!  Schemes matter and in Dre's case, he and John get penalized for being aggressive.  If y'all just want to continue to target Dre like many of you love to do and elevate others, Knock yourselves out.  But in reality, Fans of the hawks should not have to defend players who play a vital role on their favorite team to other fans but this seems to be the norm here

This is an elite post. Probably the best of this thread. Way better than any of my posts or others in here. Realistically, we shouldn't be harsh base on our expectations, we should call it down the middle. 

[NBASupes]

41 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

That Dallas opening night game where Luka was completely out of shape does not show Hunter as an elite defender.  It’s crazy how much people read into that one night.  

There have been plenty of games this season where Hunter been tremendous defensively for us and his elite versatility plays a massive role in that. Look at our record without him. It's horrendous 

[NBASupes]

56 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Your definition means that any player who can guard multiple positions is "elite". 

Aight... Let's see..

What's the difference between Hunter and Draymond defensively?

What's the difference between Hunter and Rodman defensively?

What's  the difference between Hunter and Marcus Smart defensively?

What's the difference between Hunter and Lebron defensively?

What the difference between Hunter and Shawn Marion  Defensively?

 

Here's the things... those guys have Elite Defensive Versatility.   They guard more than 1 position.. AND They make a great impact with their defense.   Hunter doesn't enter their stratosphere.  Hell, he's not in their same galaxy. 

If you want to misuse Elite... then you better start giving it some kind of designations...

Like Superior Elite,   Elite Elite, and just elite. 

 

All of the guys you named and Bron to a lesser extent are massive stocks guys. You don't have to watch film to see what they are doing outside of Green because he's doing even more than the stocks read but for the others, they produce stocks. 

Defense is far more complex than a simple video game rating. You got schemes, assignments, roles, personnel grouping, etc. There is a lot that goes into it. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by NBASupes

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

There have been plenty of games this season where Hunter been tremendous defensively for us and his elite versatility plays a massive role in that. Look at our record without him. It's horrendous 

Right.  He plays a key piece but that speak to whether his impact is elite so much as how big of a hole his absence left, imo.  If we have only one center or one point guard on the roster and that person is a league average starter then our record will suffer dramatically when they are missing.  Hunter is our best guy to guard swingmen this year and when we are missing him it hurts.  He is a key player.  We were 6-9 without Hunter this year; 2-8 before we got Bey and 4-1 without Hunter after we got Bey.  Both small sample sizes but I think he is someone that left a large hole in the roster when he was out, especially before Bey was added and when Bogi was less mobile earlier in the year.

But whether his impact is elite is a different question, imo.  That is why I was asking you whether you would expect the defense to be better when he is on the floor or not and whether you would point to DefensiveRAPTOR or some other metric as the best way to measure impact. 

His terrible metrics are one area I struggle with.  I generally hate what I see from him in terms of disruption on D and generally love what I see from him in terms of positional defense and versatility.

[Peoriabird]

Fair enough @AHF...I do agree with this assessment.  Dre needs to be more disruptive on defense and we'll see what he becomes in the future but for now I am satisfied with what he offers especially for the price.  Note: that 4-1 record with Dre included 2 tanking teams who rested most of their starters

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Fair enough @AHF...I do agree with this assessment.  Dre needs to be more disruptive on defense and we'll see what he becomes in the future but for now I am satisfied with what he offers especially for the price.  Note: that 4-1 record with Dre included 2 tanking teams who rested most of their starters

Fully agree it is too small of a sample size to be meaningful.  I don't take the 4-1 to mean that we don't need him or that he is no longer a key part of our defensive rotation now that Bogi is healthier, Bey is here, etc.  I would just anecdotally suggest that part of the reason for that 2-8 record was that earlier in the year AJ and JJ weren't contributors, Bey wasn't here, and Bogi was hurt so that his loss left a bigger hole for us than it does right now.  We still miss him when he is out.

[JeffS17]

I'm bullish on Hunter with Quin's coaching.  He's been pretty good for us even before Quin though -- maybe slightly worse than what we are paying him, but I still think his contract is going to look like a steal in a couple years.

[Peoriabird]

@JeffS17 He can't be slightly worse than what he is being paid because he is still on his rookie contract.  He is a value right now in that his extension does not kick in until next season

[bird_dirt]

38 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I'm bullish on Hunter with Quin's coaching.  He's been pretty good for us even before Quin though -- maybe slightly worse than what we are paying him, but I still think his contract is going to look like a steal in a couple years.

Let’s hope so. 

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

@JeffS17 He can't be slightly worse than what he is being paid because he is still on his rookie contract.  He is a value right now in that his extension does not kick in until next season

Right, I was referencing his extension.  

[Peoriabird]

You can't say he is over valued for this year's performance at next year's price.  We have to wait until next year to see whether he is over or under valued right?

[Peoriabird]

One can make the argument that Trae is overvalued at this year's performance for this year's price.  Trae is being paid like and all nba player while performing like a non all star player