Jalen Johnson may be better than De'Andre Hunter and Cam Reddish

[NBASupes]

Whenever someone says Marvin. It's a foolish post. Marvin could only effectively defend 4s and that was when he left the Hawks. With the Hawks, we couldn't rely on his defense at all aside from solid stocks. 

Utah figured out he's a good defender at the 4 and his best trait on D is switching. 

Offensively, Marvin is better than Dre and generally always been better than Dre. Dre is just better at finishing but both have three level scoring ability although Marvin is more capable of big scoring nights as we saw in his time in Atlanta. Marvin legit had 3rd option abilities and skills for a contender but didn't have the focus, drive, or mindset. 

Sometimes I read posts on here and it screams poor quality

 

I try to give a bone to some posters in hopes that they improve their posting skills but why bother. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Can you explain why All/Most of his metrics are what they are?

He's not posting data that's tangible or relevance to Dre's abilities and strengths. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He was productive but his +/- units were all bad even then. He wasn't a fit with any unit. He wasn't awful like Justin was but he wasn't effective. It was also a lot of up and down play on both ends. Bey trade definitely is when we seen everything come together. Especially his fit with Trae. 

 

Come on Supes.  You know I don't say stuff just to be saying it. 

Even if people don't agree with what I say, I'm always going to have receipts that show where my argument is coming from.

He's been excellent with Bey, no doubt.  But he's been + on the floor for most of the year . . when he finally got rotation minutes.

 

 

But it's crazy.  He excels with one player.   But sucks with another certain player on the team.

 

Some things just aren't coincidences.

 

[NBASupes]

Just now, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Come on Supes.  You know I don't say stuff just to be saying it. 

Even if people don't agree with what I say, I'm always going to have receipts that show where my argument is coming from.

He's been excellent with Bey, no doubt.  But he's been + on the floor for most of the year . . when he finally got rotation minutes.

 

 

But it's crazy.  He excels with one player.   But sucks with another certain player on the team.

 

Some things just aren't coincidences.

 

You do realize, you posted on this a couple months ago about Trae and JJ and directly said this wasn't a fit. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's not posting data that's tangible or relevance to Dre's abilities and strengths. 

 

I'm open to post anything that is tangible or relevant to Dre's abilities and strengths.

Just point me in the right direction, and I'll post it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

You do realize, you posted on this a couple months ago about Trae and JJ and directly said this wasn't a fit. 

 

Tell me the thread I posted that in, so I can see where my thought process was on that.

Seeing that I'm the one that started this thread hyping JJ since his rookie Summer League season, I want to see what I was thinking about, if I said that JJ and Trae wasn't a fit.

 

And I still say that if Hunter isn't going to do anything of note, than play man defense and score the ball, we might as well play him as a big 2 guard.  Let the guys who are active play on the frontline, so they can have intangible impacts to the game.

If all Dre wants to do is shoot, then play him at guard, and let JJ be the 3.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

16 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

This post is trash and very wrong. 

Easily but for what. You don't listen and you are wrong so why should I?

 

Because you can't prove it.

 

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

I'm open to post anything that is tangible or relevant to Dre's abilities and strengths.

Just point me in the right direction, and I'll post it.

Dre's traits are tape based. You can't qualify it on data points. 

Defensive versatility is something I have to show game footage and break down what's being requested. The type of defense. Is the offensive player having to work. Is he dying on screens? Etc. You really gotta know the game. This isn't just watching the old days of Joe Dumars D up on Michael Jordan. 1v1. No screens. No actions. Just Mano e Mano. The NBA is not played like that today and that's not what coaches want from their defenders. 

Many defensive metrics value stocks way too much or +/- and while +/- isn't a bad measure, it doesn't tell the story defensively at all. That's why Pop says he hates stats even when he uses the heck out of them as well as Quin and other coaches from the tree of Pop and Bud. 

 

Jokic and Minnesota Kevin Love was elite in defensive metrics but watching them play, they were awful on defense. Sometimes the +/- can't understand why some guys who can rebound and outlet pass are seen as better than what they are on D but the tape says a lot. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Tell me the thread I posted that in, so I can see where my thought process was on that.

Seeing that I'm the one that started this thread hyping JJ since his rookie Summer League season, I want to see what I was thinking about, if I said that JJ and Trae wasn't a fit.

 

And I still say that if Hunter isn't going to do anything of note, than play man defense and score the ball, we might as well play him as a big 2 guard.  Let the guys who are active play on the frontline, so they can have intangible impacts to the game.

If all Dre wants to do is shoot, then play him at guard, and let JJ be the 3.

I am looking but the search feature seems to not be direct in finding what I am looking for. It was a direct reply to me when I spoke about JJ being productive but not fitting with anyone whereas Justin just isn't productive and a negative period 

[JayBirdHawk]

39 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's not posting data that's tangible or relevance to Dre's abilities and strengths. 

Post your data that's relevant?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

17 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Can you explain why All/Most of his metrics are what they are?

 

Are what they are is right . . . for his entire career.

That's what's scary about Dre.  You want to see that young player make a jump in Year 3 or 4. 

But this indicates that virtually nothing has improved to the level that we can say he's about to break out.

 

 

I said in a Hawks live stream the other night that Dre was a B- student.  Good enough to make a passing grade, but he isn't wowing you with his GPA.  So even if he's smart, his grades ( i.e. - metrics ) don't show how smart ( good ) he is.

For some reason, I looked up and obtained my college transcripts about 3 weeks ago.  Just to be doing it.

 

( talking like Judd Nelson in New Jack City, when he said that he was a white trash Pookie )

 

I was Dre in college.  

 

2.75 GPA overall . . was good enough to consistently make Bs and an A on occasion, but didn't put in enough work to keep from making C's and C+'s the other 40% of the time. 

Had a good Junior Fall Semester where I had a 3.4 GPA for the semester.  My Senior year, I had checked out and finished with a 2.2 for that spring semester, and made my first and only D in college.

I was content with my 2.75 . . and ready to get on with my career in my field of study.  But it never materialized.

I had a degree in Advertising, but ended up working in a factory because I only established 1 networking relationship in college in ATL . . that got fired 1 month before I was set to interview at his firm and do an internship at ATL's biggest ad agency at the time ( BBDO ).

Because I settled for "just enough" early on, I never fulfilled my professional potential for almost 15 years. While I'm good right now, I'm probably about 10 years behind where I should be.  The factory that sustained me when I was young, ended up where I'd spend my professional career, being the creative and process go-to guy working with Engineering and Manufacturing Operations.

 

I was Dre. 

I did not desire to be great, until I damn near had a mid-life crisis.

 

Dre does not desire to be great.  He's content being right where he is, because that's his personality.

Does Dre need a NBA mid-life crisis in order to fulfill his potential? 

And when does "mid-life" happen in the NBA?  27?  28 years old?

Dre is 25.

 

So to me, it is what it is with Dre. 

If he keep him, we get what we get.

If we don't keep him, I won't lose one bit of sleep.

 

He's just  . . . Dre.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

33 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I am looking but the search feature seems to not be direct in finding what I am looking for. It was a direct reply to me when I spoke about JJ being productive but not fitting with anyone whereas Justin just isn't productive and a negative period 

I hope I was talking about Justin Holiday, and not Justin Johnson.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

37 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Dre's traits are tape based. You can't qualify it on data points. 

Defensive versatility is something I have to show game footage and break down what's being requested. The type of defense. Is the offensive player having to work. Is he dying on screens? Etc. You really gotta know the game. This isn't just watching the old days of Joe Dumars D up on Michael Jordan. 1v1. No screens. No actions. Just Mano e Mano. The NBA is not played like that today and that's not what coaches want from their defenders. 

Many defensive metrics value stocks way too much or +/- and while +/- isn't a bad measure, it doesn't tell the story defensively at all. That's why Pop says he hates stats even when he uses the heck out of them as well as Quin and other coaches from the tree of Pop and Bud. 

 

Jokic and Minnesota Kevin Love was elite in defensive metrics but watching them play, they were awful on defense. Sometimes the +/- can't understand why some guys who can rebound and outlet pass are seen as better than what they are on D but the tape says a lot. 

 

And this is why Trae was never the WOAT, despite what the defensive metrics said.

Thank you for this.

[NBASupes]

@TheNorthCydeRises

You were never Dre. 

You never led a team to a national championship 

You were never a tournament MVP for that said team. 

A top 5 pick.

Could defend every position effectively.

Has the size, length, strength, and lateral ability to do so.

You are misjudging Dre in some strange way to judge yourself which is odd. 

What Dre does is highly valuable to the point Atlanta signed him for 95 million and yes, many teams wanted him and would have even paid more because what he does is hard to find and everyone is looking for it. 

We might have lost last night game without Dre defensive responsibilities to guard Butler, Bam, Herro, and several others but you don't value what Dre brings. I clearly value it. 

I don't understand this hate for Dre. He literally became the player I expected him to be and that's a good player which is highly valued in the modern NBA. 

[NBASupes]

15 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

And this is why Trae was never the WOAT, despite what the defensive metrics said.

Thank you for this.

His tape is generally far worse than his metrics. Although his tape has improved this year, especially since Quin came. That said, others are bitting the bullet for him like Murray but that's a story for a different day. Replays can either show the star Trae is or crush him. His game can be very frustrating to many within those circles and watching as many playbacks as I have. I get it but I know Trae is a gamer like Reggie Miller. Whatever you think he is, he's generally better than that. Clearly speaking on the pros, not you of course. You think insanely high on Trae. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

16 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

@TheNorthCydeRises

You were never Dre. 

You never led a team to a national championship 

You were never a tournament MVP for that said team. 

A top 5 pick.

Could defend every position effectively.

Has the size, length, strength, and lateral ability to do so.

You are misjudging Dre in some strange way to judge yourself which is odd. 

What Dre does is highly valuable to the point Atlanta signed him for 95 million and yes, many teams wanted him and would have even paid more because what he does is hard to find and everyone is looking for it. 

We might have lost last night game without Dre defensive responsibilities to guard Butler, Bam, Herro, and several others but you don't value what Dre brings. I clearly value it. 

I don't understand this hate for Dre. He literally became the player I expected him to be and that's a good player which is highly valued in the modern NBA. 

 

We don't hate Dre.

We hate our expectations for Dre.  What he'll never become.

We hate that we still expect things from him.  Impactful things.  But they rarely materialize.

We hate that we can see Josh Giddey go for 30 - 10 - 9 in his first taste of the playoffs. But we only gotten one great moment from Dre in 4 years.

That's what we hate.  We hate that we can't expect greatness from him every blue moon.

We have to settle for "Decent Dre", and hope everybody else becomes great, even if it's one game.

 

Dre's career so far

 

216 total games - 210 started ( including playoffs )

31 mpg

Three 30 point games

7 double doubles ( 3 coming in his rookie season )

Has never posted over 5 assists in a game

 

Like Cam and his 3 point barrage in a losing Game 6, this is all we really have of Dre.

 

 

[benhillboy]

Dre finished 159th in defensive RAPTOR.  Sure outliers occur like Jokic’s defensive metrics obviously but generally I like to back up eye test with metrics and Vice versa.  

The perimeter guys near the top of the list get their hands on balls and totally lock down (Herb, Delon, Dort) and can disrupt weak side action off the ball with high IQ through anticipation, communication, and baiting (OG who is highly overrated to me but still, Caruso, Giannis, LeBron when he feels like it).  Dre can’t do either.  I also wouldn’t want him at the POA versus a quick PG or in the post versus a skilled 4.  Jrue or Dillon Brooks, sure.

@NBASupes I can’t understand why you discount getting defensive hands on the ball so much in an effort to defend Dre.  Only in super rare cases you can say clearly over-gambling in passing lanes, reaching for deflections/steals, contesting in hopes of a recovered block, and having a nose for the defensive glass and loose balls hurts said player’s team.  It’s why metrics have historically hated him so much because other lead defenders are providing so many more changes of possessions over the same span while keeping their fouls around 3 like Dre.  I know you’re not gonna sit here and say providing extra possessions is a bad thing in any shape of form.

Edited April 13, 2023 by benhillboy

[NBASupes]

43 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Dre finished 159th in defensive RAPTOR.  Sure outliers occur like Jokic’s defensive metrics obviously but generally I like to back up eye test with metrics and Vice versa.  

The perimeter guys near the top of the list get their hands on balls and totally lock down (Herb, Delon, Dort) and can disrupt weak side action off the ball with high IQ through anticipation, communication, and baiting (OG who is highly overrated to me but still, Caruso, Giannis, LeBron when he feels like it).  Dre can’t do either.  I also wouldn’t want him at the POA versus a quick PG or in the post versus a skilled 4.  Jrue or Dillon Brooks, sure.

@NBASupes I can’t understand why you discount getting defensive hands on the ball so much in an effort to defend Dre.  Only in super rare cases you can say clearly over-gambling in passing lanes, reaching for deflections/steals, contesting in hopes of a recovered block, and having a nose for the defensive glass and loose balls hurts said player’s team.  It’s why metrics have historically hated him so much because other lead defenders are providing so many more changes of possessions over the same span while keeping their fouls around 3 like Dre.  I know you’re not gonna sit here and say providing extra possessions is a bad thing in any shape of form.

I can agree with this post but disagree on your premise that I am saying he's one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA. 

This is where I continue harbor on this topic because no where am I saying he's an elite defender or close. OG to me is elite. Caruso is an elite guard defender. Those are elite defenders. Even though I still prefer a Prime Pat Bev on D over current Caruso. I don't have Dre in that tier or even the tier below that. You will never hear me say Dre is a DPOY candidate and you won't hear me dismiss stocks as not valuable. 

The difference between what I am saying is, what he's elite at is highly valued in NBA circles and especially valued as he's a big wing who can make open 3s and score on 3 levels. Those players who fit that prototype are extremely hard to find and valuable. 

It seems like me defending Hunter has turned you guys into thinking I see him as an elite defender like I saw in Horford who I felt was elite on both ends of the court. Most of my defense of Dre is that he ended up the player I projected out of college and that's a valuable player and even more valuable now than it was then. 

Dre defensive value is more like Klay Thompson's but can defend 4s and smaller 5s like Bam on occasion. He locked Randle down when he had to play assignment ball. We rarely ask Dre to play assignment ball because Trae is such a liability but in the playoffs, Trae actually cares on defense and allows others to focus on specific tasks. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

The defender of Dre wants to say that Dre's defense is great and underrated.  What Dre does is just stand in front of his man.   He's not a disrupter.   He's not going to cut off the passing lanes.  He doesn't really draw fouls.   He just stands in front of his man and uses his size to make shooting over him hard.   Some would call that excellent defense.    Not really.  Defensive rating wise..

 

Amoungst starting fowards over 6'7" tall...    Hunter's defensive rating is where you see it... that's deep down the list.   96th in the league but among forwards...  Below Collins. 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

34 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The difference between what I am saying is, what he's elite at is highly valued in NBA circles and especially valued as he's a big wing who can make open 3s and score on 3 levels. Those players who fit that prototype are extremely hard to find and valuable. 

I think your use of the word elite is the problem. I would say he's 'solid' at what he does. He doesn't do anything that's exceptional that stands above the rest of his counterparts.

Elite means he's superior at the things you are saying he's good at.