Soaring down South asks a good question...

[Diesel]

Where do you put JC in a redraft??

#	Team	Player	H	W	P	School	C
1	*Philadelphia	Markelle Fultz	6-4	190	PG	Washington	Fr.
2	LA Lakers	Lonzo Ball	6-6	190	PG	UCLA	Fr.
3	*Boston	Jayson Tatum	6-8	205	SF	Duke	Fr.
4	Phoenix	Josh Jackson	6-8	205	SG/SF	Kansas	Fr.
5	Sacramento	De'Aaron Fox	6-3	170	PG	Kentucky	Fr.
6	Orlando	Jonathan Isaac	6-10	210	SF/PF	Florida St.	Fr.
7	Chicago	Lauri Markkanen	7-0	230	PF	Arizona	Fr.
8	New York	Frank Ntilikina	6-5	190	PG	France	Intl.
9	Dallas	Dennis Smith	6-2	195	PG	NC State	Fr.
10	*Portland	Zach Collins	6-11	230	C	Gonzaga	Fr.
11	Charlotte	Malik Monk	6-3	200	SG	Kentucky	Fr.
12	Detroit	Luke Kennard	6-6	195	SG	Duke	So.
13	*Utah	Donovan Mitchell	6-2	210	SG	Louisville	So.
14	Miami	Bam Adebayo	6-10	245	PF/C	Kentucky	Fr.
15	Sacramento	Justin Jackson	6-8	200	SF	North Carolina	Jr.
16	*Minnesota	Justin Patton	6-11	230	C	Creighton	Fr.
17	Milwaukee	DJ Wilson	6-10	235	PF	Michigan	Jr.
18	Indiana	TJ Leaf	6-10	225	PF	UCLA	Fr.
19	Atlanta	John Collins	6-9	225	PF/C	Wake Forest	So.
20	*Sacramento	Harry Giles	6-10	230	PF/C	Duke	Fr.
21	Oklahoma Cty	Terrance Ferguson	6-7	185	SG	USA	Intl.
22	*Brooklyn	Jarrett Allen	6-10	235	C	Texas	Fr.
23	*Toronto	OG Anunoby	6-7	235	SF/PF	Indiana	So.
24	*Denver	Tyler Lydon	6-9	215	PF	Syracuse	So.
25	*Philadelphia	Anzejs Pasecniks	7-1	220	C	Latvia	Intl.
26	*Portland	Caleb Swanigan	6-9	250	PF/C	Purdue	So.
27	*LA Lakers	Kyle Kuzma	6-9	225	PF	Utah	Jr.
28	*Utah	Tony Bradley	6-10	250	C	North Carolina	Fr.
29	San Antonio	Derrick White	6-4	190	PG/SG	Colorado	Sr.
30	*LA Lakers	Josh Hart	6-5	210	SG	Villanova	Sr.

[Diesel]

I'm going:

 

1.  Tatum

2.  Fox

3.  JC

4.   Ball 

5.  Smith

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I'm going:

 

1.  Tatum

2.  Fox

3.  JC

4.   Ball 

5.  Smith 

 

 

Dennis Smith??? He's just about out of the league.

JC would be in the top 5:

Tatum, Donovan Mitchell, JC, Fox, Adebayo, Ball, OG

[REHawksFan]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Dennis Smith??? He's just about out of the league.

JC would be in the top 5:

Tatum, Donovan Mitchell, JC, Fox, Adebayo, Ball, OG

I think JC would have a strong case after Tatum and Bam go 1, 2.  Either JC or Mitchell would be next, imo. 

[AHF]

Actual draft is always a factor with who needs what.  So this is my "abstract" ranking through JC:

Tatum

Mitchell

Bam

Fox

JC

 

Here is my 20/20 hindsight draft through JC's selection based on actual teams:

#1 BOS - Tatum (Philly refuses to trade this time because they want a PG and aren't impatient idiots; Boston still wants Tatum)

#2 LAL - Mitchell (already have Randle, Ingram and Russell so Bam also works but figure LA management from this era wants the bigger splash)

#3 PHI - Fox (wanted a PG and get him this time)

#4 PHO - Bam (other than Booker, this is a mediocre to terrible roster so selection is wide open but Bam and Booker seem a good pairing)

#5 SAC - JC (Cousins and Hield are your young studs here so JC fits no matter whether they keep Cousins this time or deal him again)

[capstone21]

Smith????  

[capstone21]

30 minutes ago, AHF said:

Actual draft is always a factor with who needs what.  So this is my "abstract" ranking through JC:

Tatum

Mitchell

Bam

Fox

JC

This would be my rankings … you might have a case of Mitchell over Tatum but I would have him fifth after those four guys.

[Gray Mule]

We all agree.  JC would go much higher.  Speculation:  At the end of this upcoming season, where do you suppose the two Atlanta picks will end up on a draft re-do?

Sharife Cooper went low in the 2nd round and Jalen Johnson went #20 in the 1st.

Will they live up to the hopes of us Squawk posters?  Will they both be that good?  Or, was their position correct?  Check back in one year and see!

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Dennis Smith??? He's just about out of the league.

JC would be in the top 5:

Tatum, Donovan Mitchell, JC, Fox, Adebayo, Ball, OG

Shucks.. I missed Mitchell. 

Tatum, Mitchell, Fox, JC, and Ball are my 5.

[RandomFan]

First, here is their redraft top 10 from the article:

https://soaringdownsouth.com/2021/08/27/atlanta-hawks-redrafting-2017-john-collins/

1. Mitchell
2. Tatum
3. Bam Adebayo 
4. JC
5. De'Aaron Fox
6. Jarrett Allen
7. Dillon Brooks
8. Lonzo
9. Markkanen
10. Fultz

 

Mine:

1. Bam
2. Tatum
3. Mitchell
4. Fox
5. JC
6. OG Anunoby
7. Lonzo
8. Jarrett Allen
9. Dillon Brooks
10. Markkanen

Bam and Tatum are easily the two best players, with Mitchell by himself in the next tier below. I could see the argument for Tatum at #1 since the NBA is a wing driven league in this era, but Bam is such a valuable rare unicorn type of player for a big with that type of mobility, IQ, defensive skill, and offensive initiation ability. 

Mitchell is very good, but he's not better than those two. And while Fox gets unfairly discounted as an empty stats guy on a bad team (like Trae used to be), he isn't quite as good as Mitchell. 

It's a big drop-off to the next tier of JC and Anunoby and OG might be better than JC, but I guess I'll go with the homer pick between the two. 

And then it's a very very big drop to the rest.   

[ATLHawks3]

1. Tatum

2. Mitchell

3. Adebayo

4. Fox

5. Collins

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Shucks.. I missed Mitchell. 

Tatum, Mitchell, Fox, JC, and Ball are my 5.

Lonzo Ball over Bam Adebayo is crazy, IMO.  

Just on assists last year it was Bam 5.4 versus 5.7 for Lonzo.  And that is before you get to the rest of their games.

Lonzo career 9.2 total Win Shares.  Bam 8.8 Win Shares last year alone and 28.3 total.  Lonzo isn't a top 15 point guard while Bam is a top 5 center.  

Just not close.

[thecampster]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

Lonzo Ball over Bam Adebayo is crazy, IMO.  

Just on assists last year it was Bam 5.4 versus 5.7 for Lonzo.  And that is before you get to the rest of their games.

Lonzo career 9.2 total Win Shares.  Bam 8.8 Win Shares last year alone and 28.3 total.  Lonzo isn't a top 15 point guard while Bam is a top 5 center.  

Just not close.

Bam > Ball but out of curiousity. Who are the 4 centers you have ahead of Bam?  (I'm counting like 8).  I guess we need to define it as well since Bam is technically a F/C and that opens the list some.  But yah, Ball over Bam is really hard to swallow.

 

[marco102]

I have another question.   Is Kevin Huerter a top 10 pick in a 2018 redraft?  I think he is. 

1. Luka

2. Trae

3. Ayton

4. Michael Porter Jr. 

5. SGA

6. Collin Sexton

7. Jaren Jackson Jr. 

8.  Mikal Bridges

9. Kevin Huerter

10. - Pick em

[RandomFan]

54 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Bam > Ball but out of curiousity. Who are the 4 centers you have ahead of Bam?  (I'm counting like 8).  I guess we need to define it as well since Bam is technically a F/C and that opens the list some.  But yah, Ball over Bam is really hard to swallow.

 

There's only two, for now, in Embiid and Jokic. That's it, and just barely at that. Given Bam is still only 24 I wouldn't be surprised if he tops the list within 2 years considering Embiid's injury issues and Jokic's defensive shortcomings. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by RandomFan

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, RandomFan said:

First, here is their redraft top 10 from the article:

https://soaringdownsouth.com/2021/08/27/atlanta-hawks-redrafting-2017-john-collins/

1. Mitchell
2. Tatum
3. Bam Adebayo 
4. JC
5. De'Aaron Fox
6. Jarrett Allen
7. Dillon Brooks
8. Lonzo
9. Markkanen
10. Fultz

 

Mine:

1. Bam
2. Tatum
3. Mitchell
4. Fox
5. JC
6. OG Anunoby
7. Lonzo
8. Jarrett Allen
9. Dillon Brooks
10. Markkanen

Bam and Tatum are easily the two best players, with Mitchell by himself in the next tier below. I could see the argument for Tatum at #1 since the NBA is a wing driven league in this era, but Bam is such a valuable rare unicorn type of player for a big with that type of mobility, IQ, defensive skill, and offensive initiation ability. 

Mitchell is very good, but he's not better than those two. And while Fox gets unfairly discounted as an empty stats guy on a bad team (like Trae used to be), he isn't quite as good as Mitchell. 

It's a big drop-off to the next tier of JC and Anunoby and OG might be better than JC, but I guess I'll go with the homer pick between the two. 

And then it's a very very big drop to the rest.   

I think Bam is overrated.. Especially on this board.   He's good.. but he doesn't create for himself.  He's not a good away from the basket scorer.  He makes good passes and his defense is good but No way is he above Mitchell and Tatum.  Or JC.  At some point, we have to start giving our guys some credit too!

 

 

[RandomFan]

12 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think Bam is overrated.. Especially on this board.   He's good.. but he doesn't create for himself.  He's not a good away from the basket scorer.  He makes good passes and his defense is good but No way is he above Mitchell and Tatum.  Or JC.  At some point, we have to start giving our guys some credit too!

 

 

You're high. Bam is exceedingly underrated on this board, for one thing. And if you think JC can even hold a candle to Bam...there aren't enough face palm gifs in the world for that opinion. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by RandomFan

[AHF]

33 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think Bam is overrated.. Especially on this board.   He's good.. but he doesn't create for himself.  He's not a good away from the basket scorer.  He makes good passes and his defense is good but No way is he above Mitchell and Tatum.  Or JC.  At some point, we have to start giving our guys some credit too!

 

 

I don't think anyone has him listed above Mitchell and Tatum.  The issue was that you listed Ball over him.  A conversation can be had around JC but I think it was justified that Bam got a max deal while JC did not.  If Miami would not have been willing to give Bam a max deal, other teams would have been lined up to do it while no one was for JC.  

JC is great and deserves credit but I think the appropriate credit for him in this discussion is moving from the #19 pick to the #5 pick in a draft with some good depth at the top.

[RedDawg#8]

Tatum

Mitchell

Bam

Fox

JC

Anunoby

Kuzma

Ball

Markannen

White

Allen

the rest

[Diesel]

 

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I don't think anyone has him listed above Mitchell and Tatum.  The issue was that you listed Ball over him.  A conversation can be had around JC but I think it was justified that Bam got a max deal while JC did not.  If Miami would not have been willing to give Bam a max deal, other teams would have been lined up to do it while no one was for JC.  

JC is great and deserves credit but I think the appropriate credit for him in this discussion is moving from the #19 pick to the #5 pick in a draft with some good depth at the top.

Actually Randomfan did list Bam above Mitchell and Tatum. 

I think there's a difference between value and ability.   Bam can play a position (C) that doesn't have many above average players.   When Plumlee is still in the league collecting a check.. it tells you the dearth for that position.   But just because the scarcity of high quality Centers make him a sought after commodity... it doesn't mean that he brings more to the table than JC does. 

You all have made Bam the second coming of Olajuwon.. when in actuality, his skillset offensively requires an initiator and he's a good defender.  Maybe very good.   And he can pass the ball.  What he brings to the game is not more than what JC brings. 

My valuation for Ball is more based on what he is as a PG than just his statistics.   As a 6'6" PG (Legit) Ball gets a lot of value from me.  He's big enough to hamper opposing PGs .