Defense

[theheroatl]

So far at this point in the season we have an above average PPG in the east, in fact we are 2nd behind Boston.

The difference maker for these past few years has been defense. What will it take for us to be a top 8 defense in the EC? We are currently 12th.

I'd like to only discuss ideas on how the Hawks can be a better defensive team. Murray clearly is an upgrade on perimeter defense. What advanced stats might show us is somewhere in the mid-range is our weakest spot. 

Looking at the game log, there are some really average to slightly above average and even some mediocre teams dragging our defensive PPG down. 

Perhaps we should evaluate what those teams had as far as players that scored on us at a higher average? I know Lauri and Scary Terry went off on us. 

Will better players or a better staff help this? Why would we want D' Antoni when our problem has been defense?

My opinion... our forwards suck and need a wholesale change. Getting 1-2 Draymond types would change us drastically.

Edited February 1, 2023 by theheroatl

[NBASupes]

Draymond is a HOFer. Finding Draymond types is not realistic. The closest player to Draymond is Sochan in SA and he's not going anywhere. 

[theheroatl]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Draymond is a HOFer. Finding Draymond types is not realistic. The closest player to Draymond is Sochan in SA and he's not going anywhere. 

There are plenty of defensive forwards out there. Getting one is a challenge but still..

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense?PlayerPosition=F&dir=A&sort=DEF_WS

Hey, even KAT has a much better defensive w/s than our forwards... Time to tell Minny the experiment is over?

Edited February 1, 2023 by theheroatl

[NBASupes]

I've been a fan of Ime Udoka work. Quality offensive scheme which adjust to the personnel with great defensive schemes that don't break the integrity of the defense. 

 

Guys like MDA are old and washed. He might give us a good 60 games but after that, he would be looking washed and done needing to go back to retirement 

[theheroatl]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

I've been a fan of Ime Udoka work. Quality offensive scheme which adjust to the personnel with great defensive schemes that don't break the integrity of the defense. 

 

Guys like MDA are old and washed. He might give us a good 60 games but after that, he would be looking washed and done needing to go back to retirement 

A better defensive coach like Atkinson is good fit. Grant Williams really helped Ime though. Players make 70% of the difference.

[NBASupes]

18 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

There are plenty of defensive forwards out there. Getting one is a challenge but still..

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense?PlayerPosition=F&dir=A&sort=DEF_WS

Hey, even KAT has a much better defensive w/s than our forwards... Time to tell Minny the experiment is over?

I don't care about defensive WS. I care about what you are capable of on defense. I still think this team is massively capped on D by Trae. That simply won't change overnight. 

 

What this defense is missing an elite SF like a prime Kawhi who can be a #1 option on offense and guard 3-4 positions like Dre but way better than Dre. The problem is, that player Don't even exist right now in the NBA. Even current Kawhi is a shell of that player. We need that Kawhi the Raptors got in a trade with the Spurs with the current cast. 

Realistically. The best we can do is really upgrade the offense while not downgrading the defense massively. That's the biggest challenge. You can replace KAT with Capela and Murray with Griffin but Okongwu has to take his D to another level which I think he can. Dre does as well which I am not sure he can. Griffin will obviously have to become a much better defender. 

All of this is easier said than done. Losing a versatile defender like Murray who can guard 1s and 2s and losing a top end defender in Capela will be massively felt but replacing them with Griffin and KAT will Change our offensive outlook and make Trae a top tier player again which he's not at this time because while his offensive impact is still very good, it's no longer elite. We need elite to justify his value. 

At the end of the day, I rather have an elite two man game than a balanced team like we are now because we are just middle of the pack on both ends.

Edited February 1, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

A better defensive coach like Atkinson is good fit. Grant Williams really helped Ime though. Players make 70% of the difference.

Atkinson has an offensive system that HATES heliocentric basketball. You want that to be added to a Trae Young offense. You simply don't understand Basketball if you do. Trae is anti motion offense and that will kill his offensive impact more than even anything our personnel can do.

[shakes]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I've been a fan of Ime Udoka work. 

 

 

How could you not be?  The guy lays more pipe than Shell Oil.

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Draymond is a HOFer. Finding Draymond types is not realistic. The closest player to Draymond is Sochan in SA and he's not going anywhere. 

But there's Draymond.  We could just get him. 

[NBASupes]

43 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

But there's Draymond.  We could just get him. 

Naw, he's old and we have no cap space

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I don't care about defensive WS. I care about what you are capable of on defense. I still think this team is massively capped on D by Trae. That simply won't change overnight. 

 

What this defense is missing an elite SF like a prime Kawhi who can be a #1 option on offense and guard 3-4 positions like Dre but way better than Dre. The problem is, that player Don't even exist right now in the NBA. Even current Kawhi is a shell of that player. We need that Kawhi the Raptors got in a trade with the Spurs with the current cast. 

Realistically. The best we can do is really upgrade the offense while not downgrading the defense massively. That's the biggest challenge. You can replace KAT with Capela and Murray with Griffin but Okongwu has to take his D to another level which I think he can. Dre does as well which I am not sure he can. Griffin will obviously have to become a much better defender. 

All of this is easier said than done. Losing a versatile defender like Murray who can guard 1s and 2s and losing a top end defender in Capela will be massively felt but replacing them with Griffin and KAT will Change our offensive outlook and make Trae a top tier player again which he's not at this time because while his offensive impact is still very good, it's no longer elite. We need elite to justify his value. 

At the end of the day, I rather have an elite two man game than a balanced team like we are now because we are just middle of the pack on both ends.

If you're talking just defense... then your assertion is not right.  We don't need a defensive player of the year SF to be successful at Defense.  And Trae is not the capping of our defense.  At least, he doesnt have to be.   Our defense needs a strong interior that limits offensive rebounds.   It was easy to see when Clint was out what our defensive problems were and when he came back.   Unfortunately, Nate will not always reach for the best defensive teams because he constantly put Bogi out there when we need good defense. 

Defense is about getting needed stops and thus far, we haven't had the right personnel and scheme out there to get good defensive stops.  Murray makes some difference but he is not a 1 on 1 wonder.  What I mean is that for him to be effective, our defense has to be more communicative.   Hunter plays good man to man defense but his team defensive awareness is not there.   That may be because of scheme.   OO is a good shot blocker, but he exhibits terrible understanding on the court and playing positional defense.   JC communicates and he is a good team defender, but one on one, he gets scorched.   I lay all these to Nate's feet.   He's supposed to be a good defensive coach... but he hasn't gotten us to the place where it's good defensive communication.   So we have a gang of guys out there not communicating.   But I will give him this.  For a while, during our streak, I watched Trae.   Trae avoided being switched into the low post consistently.   The one thing that Nate has done a decent job of is relaying to Trae that teams want to trap him in the low post and abuse him in the low post so it's his job to work to stay high. 

What is necessary is adding more communication to our defense.  That's scheme and practice.   We watched the PTL game the other night.   Dame is a horrible one on one defender.   However, he's backed up by Grant and the big man.  Their communication on defense is better than ours.  GS's defense is great because it's anchored by Green who tells everybody where they are supposed to be at all time.  Klay is a great #2.  Iguodala was a great 2B and they made Wiggins into a great 2B.   Think about that.. Wiggins at one point was consider the WOAT on defense.   Now he is highly regarded for his defense.   Why?  He's in a system that communicates and holds him accountable. 

That's what we need.

 

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

I disagree with everyone who says Trae doesn't harm our defense. That's just not the case and he's always been awful on that end

[macdaddy]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I disagree with everyone who says Trae doesn't harm our defense. That's just not the case and he's always been awful on that end

Did someone say that?   But in fairness all negative defenders 'harm' their defense.   Luka and Ja harm their defense.  So i'm not sure that means a lot. 

[Diesel]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I disagree with everyone who says Trae doesn't harm our defense. That's just not the case and he's always been awful on that end

You can disagree with that.. but you can't make the statement that we can't defend because of Trae.   Our Current scheme may not be the best for Trae's defense.. but under the right coaching with the right system, Trae's defense wouldn't be a thing.   Again, Look at the turn around in Wiggins.. leaving Minnesota. 

 

[theheroatl]

There is nothing to be done about our backcourt. Our frontcourt rotation is pretty lackluster especially if Clint or Onyeka go out.

I would venture to guess it's not Trae's fault that Lauri and Terry went off on us.

Edited February 1, 2023 by theheroatl

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Did someone say that?   But in fairness all negative defenders 'harm' their defense.   Luka and Ja harm their defense.  So i'm not sure that means a lot. 

What I would like is someone who can be to the defense what Trae is to the offense.  Be that guy!!!

[AHF]

16 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What I would like is someone who can be to the defense what Trae is to the offense.  Be that guy!!!

No doubt.  That would be great.

I just don't see a single weak defender at PG as being ruinous to a team's title hopes if they have the other key players.  The Bulls were never slowed down by Steve Kerr, John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, etc. who delivered all their value on the offensive side of the ball.  Trae is going to guard the least threatening, most perimeter oriented guard on the opposing team.  That guy is usually not destroying us.  Between DM and Hunter big reasons they are here are because they should be versatile enough to take the best two perimeter scorers on the opposing team.  

Trae is never going to win a playoff series on his defense unless you call a big moment like Gallo stripping Embiid qualifies because he doesn't have the physical tools or the defensive instincts to do that.  But I do think he has gotten better over time on that end and that an engaged Trae should be something we can live with on defense to benefit from his offense.  He should be aspiring to be closer to Steph Curry as a defender who isn't particularly good on that end but is just fine when surrounded by some elite defenders in GS.  To reduce that gap, it is up to Trae to continue to work on his D but also the coach to hide their offensive player just like coaches have hidden Steve Kerr, Steve Nash and so many others in the past.

[benhillboy]

6 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Did someone say that?   But in fairness all negative defenders 'harm' their defense.   Luka and Ja harm their defense.  So i'm not sure that means a lot. 

 

Trust me @macdaddy, they both have made considerable strides as team defenders.  Luka’s rebounding alone squashes any notion of him being a hurtful defender.

I know y’all hate my statistical analysis but these graphs are as simple as it gets.  No contending team has their best player under the defensive points saved line, let alone as far as Trae is.

Edited February 1, 2023 by benhillboy

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

Trust me @macdaddy, they both have made considerable strides as team defenders.  Luka’s rebounding alone squashes any notion of him being a hurtful defender.

You know as well as i do that the majority of defensive rebounds are uncontested and that Mavs players are under strict orders to clear out so Luka can come back and grab it.  i call bunk on this type of inflation. 

[Wretch]

Echoing what's been said and putting them into priorities

1. <reserved for my personal top priority - more below>
2. Making sure they don't "dial a mismatch" on Trae a la Mike Bibby and his knees.
3. Limit 2nd chance points...which, honestly this shouldn't be a problem with Murray, JC, and Cap.  Hunter could be better, but we are solid there.
4. Better team defense attributed to communication
5. Trae staying active in the passing lanes.  I've seen him out there doing it and I'd like to see him stay after it.  He's fast enough to be a disruptor.  Mookie, shorter than Trae but a little thicker, used to do this frequently and Deke would clean up behind him as a part of the scheme.  They were effective.

The PRIMARY asset to our defense though, is offense.  Sorry that you guys may not want to talk about this...but the best defense is a good offense.  Is anyone in here delusional enough to argue the merits of trying to "stop" the likes KD, Tatum, Embiid, Giannis, SGA, Luka..etc?  For all the defense, play calling, scheming, switching, intensity, crashing the boards...anything you can think of, the game comes down to these guys scoring "when it counts."  Surely, there are supporting players that step up.  However, these guys get that opportunity because of the gravity of/concern over the alphas. 

Sometimes, you just have to score a basket man.  Sometimes, you just gotta keep that lead padded. 

Quoting Nique:
"That's good defense, but better offense."
"There's absolutely nothing you can do about that shot."
"He's just hot Bob.  Rozier's hit 5 three's in a row now and he's up to 8 for the game."

Defense will do nothing against that sort of thing.  You have to score.  Keeping a lead affects the opposition mentally.  Maybe not the Kobe's and MJ's, but you can get into Giannis' head or Embiid.  Added pressure to perform, looking at the clock, thinking about it a little too long...miss that shot.  Then on the other end, a back-breaking 3 from Trae.  

"Gotta step on their throats..."