A koncakian repeat.....

[Diesel]

Time to stir the pot with some truth.

If DeAndre Hunter was worth 90 Million dollars for the future (to our franchise).  What will Saddiq Bey be worth to our franchise.  I know Bey doesn't have the luxury of being somebody we drafted but you see him on the floor working.  He hustles more than Hunter IMO.  Thus far, he has been more reliable from 3.  So what should we do with Bey?

 

Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Saddiq Bey	2022-23	23	68	32	27.9	4.5	10.8	.415	2.0	5.4	.370	2.5	5.4	.460	.508	2.9	3.4	.858	1.2	3.4	4.6	1.5	0.9	0.2	1.0	1.6	13.9
2	De'Andre Hunter	2022-23	25	63	63	31.9	5.7	12.2	.464	1.5	4.3	.361	4.1	8.0	.519	.527	2.6	3.2	.822	0.7	3.5	4.2	1.4	0.5	0.3	1.3	3.0	15.

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Saddiq Bey	2022-23	23	68	1895	14.3	.565	.502	.317	4.5	14.0	9.1	7.8	1.5	0.6	7.3	20.2		2.2	1.1	3.3	.083		0.7	-1.2	-0.6	0.7
2	De'Andre Hunter	2022-23	25	63	2010	11.7	.569	.349	.262	2.3	12.3	7.2	6.0	0.8	0.7	8.4	19.7		1.4	1.1	2.5	.061		-1.8	-1.4	-3.2	-0.

[TheBigETrain]

Trade Hunter and Collins this offseason for KAT. Keep Bey.

[Diesel]

28 minutes ago, TheBigETrain said:

Trade Hunter and Collins this offseason for KAT. Keep Bey.

After Last night, I'm sure Minnesota is dying to get that trade done. 

 

[Spud2nique]

KAT sucks pass it on.

[Spud2nique]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

Time to stir the pot with some truth.

If DeAndre Hunter was worth 90 Million dollars for the future (to our franchise).  What will Saddiq Bey be worth to our franchise.  I know Bey doesn't have the luxury of being somebody we drafted but you see him on the floor working.  He hustles more than Hunter IMO.  Thus far, he has been more reliable from 3.  So what should we do with Bey?

 

Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Saddiq Bey	2022-23	23	68	32	27.9	4.5	10.8	.415	2.0	5.4	.370	2.5	5.4	.460	.508	2.9	3.4	.858	1.2	3.4	4.6	1.5	0.9	0.2	1.0	1.6	13.9
2	De'Andre Hunter	2022-23	25	63	63	31.9	5.7	12.2	.464	1.5	4.3	.361	4.1	8.0	.519	.527	2.6	3.2	.822	0.7	3.5	4.2	1.4	0.5	0.3	1.3	3.0	15.

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Saddiq Bey	2022-23	23	68	1895	14.3	.565	.502	.317	4.5	14.0	9.1	7.8	1.5	0.6	7.3	20.2		2.2	1.1	3.3	.083		0.7	-1.2	-0.6	0.7
2	De'Andre Hunter	2022-23	25	63	2010	11.7	.569	.349	.262	2.3	12.3	7.2	6.0	0.8	0.7	8.4	19.7		1.4	1.1	2.5	.061		-1.8	-1.4	-3.2	-0.

Der go D again steaming my spud thunder. I say Marv you say Koncak. I dunno what the heck to think about Hunter but to me he’s not a keep. Bey is the man and he has that dog.

[warcore]

17 hours ago, Diesel said:

After Last night, I'm sure Minnesota is dying to get that trade done. 

After that night, I don't what the kitty kat anywhere near our squad. Y'all saw him talking like he was Muhamamd Ali because the refs gave him free throws he didn't even deserve in the first place for that double chicken wing. Trae doesn't need any more of that mindset rubbing off on him. 

[akay]

Bey is good at spot up shooting, but any time he dribbles the ball it's almost like watching Cam, you know it's probably an empty possession or turnover.

His defense is sus as well, Hunter isn't as flashy, but he shoots well and does his job on D, would definitely rather keep Hunter than Saddiq even if Bey has more dawg in him. 

[Peoriabird]

@akay  You know These guys only look at 3 point shooting to determine whether a player is good or not.  Defense?  Who needs defense?  They know Bey can't play a lick of defense but many don't care.  For some reason, the blame has to go somewhere when this team loses so this year's scrape goats are John and Dre.  Because It can't be Trae Young or Murray.

[Peoriabird]

And by the way, there is virtually no difference in their career 3 point shooting percentages.

[givemesome1ce1]

Until Bey plays better on defense, there is no reason to start him. As a bench scorer, he is great. Bey on defense is a nightmare and people blow by him. Bey is getting his best looks from three because he is playing with Trae. Hopefully, he can improve his defense this summer. 

[AHF]

On 3/24/2023 at 6:38 PM, Peoriabird said:

@akay  You know These guys only look at 3 point shooting to determine whether a player is good or not.  Defense?  Who needs defense?  They know Bey can't play a lick of defense but many don't care.  For some reason, the blame has to go somewhere when this team loses so this year's scrape goats are John and Dre.  Because It can't be Trae Young or Murray.

So you look at a post where Diesel shares roughly 30 different measures of a player other than 3pt shooting and conclude no one looks at anything other than 3pt shooting?  I prefer Hunter to Bey as well but sure wouldn't make that my argument.

[Peoriabird]

Y'all keep looking at these dumb azz numbers without any understanding of what they measure to keep making these nonsensical arguments. Even @AHF presented some defensive measures that argued that both Murray and Bogi were better defensive players than Dre.  That should be enough to discourage you from trying to make sense of these numbers but it doesn't.  The distortion of facts just continues because of personal bias.

[Peoriabird]

I must apologize to @AHF for short changing his argument.  He wasn't arguing based on his dumb azz measure that Murray and Bogi were better defenders than Dre.  He was arguing that Dre is the worse perimeter defender on the team.  Congratulations AHF, You have now surpassed even @terrell as having made one of the most ridiculous argument ever made on this message board!

[sturt]

Peor (... rhymes with... well, you know...   )... caught on hidden cam as he posted the above...

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

44 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Y'all keep looking at these dumb azz numbers without any understanding of what they measure to keep making these nonsensical arguments. Even @AHF presented some defensive measures that argued that both Murray and Bogi were better defensive players than Dre.  That should be enough to discourage you from trying to make sense of these numbers but it doesn't.  The distortion of facts just continues because of personal bias.

 

Dre's issue is that his defensive impact doesn't have great measurables.  Measurable defensive stats include:

• forced FG misses
• defensive rebs
• steals
• blocks
• forced on ball turnovers that aren't steals and blocks ( not officially tracked but do end a possession )

Out of these 5 metrics, what does Dre do well on defense?

He doesn't rebound, get steals, or get blocks at the rate of the average SF, because he's not a hustle player on defense.

Does he hold his opponent below their FG% on a nightly basis?  Looking at this defensive dashboard, I would say maybe 60% of the time he does, which would make him a good on ball defender.

 

 

But if Dre forces a missed shot, and someone else gets an offensive rebound and they score on that possession, it's not Dre's fault, but the impact of that missed shot gets nullified.

As I said about a month ago, for this team to be highly successful, we need a guy like Dre to be GREAT at just one thing. If defense is his calling card, we need him to be at least a 2nd team All-NBA candidate for the defensive team. 

If shooting is going to be what he does, then be a 40% 3 point shooter who can knock down open 3s in the clutch.

If he's going to be one of the premier midrange scorers in the game, then be Baby Kawhi or Joe Johnson lite, and get those buckets.

But if he's not elite at SOMETHING on the court, then he's just . . . . Dre.

 

And if he's just . . . Dre . . . he's expendable.

[Peoriabird]

At least you look beyond the simplistic measure before drawing conclusions @TheNorthCydeRises.. Unlike some who post stats that make Delon Wright look like a top 15 player who value is more than the likes of Trae Young and Luka.  I just grow tired of hearing about how great some of these bench players are and how stupid coaches must be for not recognizing how much better they are than the starter using these dumb azz metrics!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Y'all keep looking at these dumb azz numbers without any understanding of what they measure to keep making these nonsensical arguments. Even @AHF presented some defensive measures that argued that both Murray and Bogi were better defensive players than Dre.  That should be enough to discourage you from trying to make sense of these numbers but it doesn't.  The distortion of facts just continues because of personal bias.

 

The eye test would say that it's ridiculous that DJ and Bogi are better defenders than Dre.

But do they have more defensive impact? 

Dre

• Steals per 36 min - 0.6
• Blocks per 36 min -  0.3
• Def Rebs per 36 min -  4.0
• DFG% - 46.4%

Bogi

• Steals per 36 min - 1.0
• Blocks per 36 min -  0.5
• Def Rebs per 36 min -  3.6
• DFG% - 47.2%

Dejounte

• Steals per 36 min - 1.5
• Blocks per 36 min -  0.3
• Def Rebs per 36 min -  4.6
• DFG% -  50.1%

 

Dejounte's man defense has been atrocious since the 1st of the year.  But he does make over 6.1 plays a game ( defensive rebounds + steals ) that end an offensive possession for our opponent. 

Bogi is at 4.6 

Dre is at 4.5

Hell, even Trae is at 4.3

 

Dre's defensive impact has to be better than that, especially on a bad defensive team.

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

At least you look beyond the simplistic measure before drawing conclusions @TheNorthCydeRises.. Unlike some who post stats that make Delon Wright look like a top 15 player who value is more than the likes of Trae Young and Luka.  I just grow tired of hearing about how great some of these bench players are and how stupid coaches must be for not recognizing how much better they are than the starter using these dumb azz metrics!

 

You have to look at everything, and not just cherry pick one stat and make your entire argument on that.

There is no one stat that tells the entire story.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

I must apologize to @AHF for short changing his argument.  He wasn't arguing based on his dumb azz measure that Murray and Bogi were better defenders than Dre.  He was arguing that Dre is the worse perimeter defender on the team.  Congratulations AHF, You have now surpassed even @terrell as having made one of the most ridiculous argument ever made on this message board!

Here was our actual exchange.

We were posting on a thread about potential alternative lineups.  I suggested that I would like to see a lineup of Trae, DM, Hunter, Bey, and OO.  You made the case that DM should not be starting and got a free pass from posters because he was a worse perimeter defender than Bogi.

I then posted the defensive metrics on basketballreference for all of our non-Trae perimeter players as some evidence that DM wasn't as bad a defender as you were making him out to be.  Naturally you lost your mind and the actual topic of the conversation when Hunter's bad metrics showed up and you focused solely on those numbers.  I then told  you that I speculate that Hunter's numbers are worse because he takes the hardest matchups in many games (with DM and Hunter taking the hardest guard and wing matchups) and that I considered him to be the most valuable defender among the group because of his size.  (DM having similar overall value as a more disruptive defender but worse positional defender than Hunter but not having the ability to defend as many matchups due to his size).

Now you come on to a wholly unrelated thread and misrepresent my post for whatever reason.  Hardly the first time we've been down this road.  Pretty hilarious to see you so bent out of shape by Hunter's bad metrics that you completely missed the fact that I gave my personal opinion that Hunter was our most valuable perimeter defender in spite of his bad numbers.  I suppose that is better than you actually having read my post and then lying about it here but only by a small margin.  All the same, I'll take negligent failure to read the post and inadvertent misrepresentation over deliberate misrepresentation.

Oh and someday I still hope you'll honor your word and live up to the bet you lost.

[Peoriabird]

So why post the metrics then if you do not believe they tell the entire story? You see this is what I mean!!! You don't even believe the metric but you constantly post them to make an argument! Why?