2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[Gray Mule]

10 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

 

By the way, how big is Trae again? 

He must be big enough.  Remember all the Women and Gay men, in our playoff with the Knickerbockers, yelling about wanting to have sex with Trae!

[Spud2nique]

10 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

He must be big enough.  Remember all the Women and Gay men, in our playoff with the Knickerbockers, yelling about wanting to have sex with Trae!

…. … 

11 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

He must be big enough.

Ohhhhboyyyyy

[KB21]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

It's a combination of familiarity breeding discontent and BSPN-ization.

A. Hawks fans see how bad our team defense is and have decided to pin it on one guy.  This is fueled by B.

B. People hear  the eggsperts on BSPN and other places tell them how bad a guy is or how great(sic) another guy is, and they just blindly believe.  This is the BSPN-ization of fans.  Folks choose to replace their own thinking with what BSPN and other sports media tell them.

So NYK has great team defense around Brunson and ... well, hes out there too, so he must be grest on defense as well right?  No, he's actually not.  He has the same issues Trae does on D.  He just has a team geared to hide his deficiencies.  We dont.  It’s that simple.

The Knicks are a great example of how you build a team around a point guard who is a defensive liability.  Notice that Julius Randle, a shitastic defender, isn't even playing.  

[AHF]

13 hours ago, theheroatl said:

Jarrett Allen is a tremendous defender

 

Which should be the singular focus area of improvement on a dumpster fire defense for 3 years

 

That is a huge deal which means very unlikely to happen but very interesting idea.  I can see a logic behind it for every team involved which is rare.

13 hours ago, JTB said:

I don’t know…while @AHF did make some good arguments… @REHawksFan posted some facts that cannot be ignored when discussing BI and his fit with an ACTUAL point guard. BI shot plenty of 3s when he had Lonzo and Holiday…can’t just be ignoring the facts with personal feelings. And to @JeffS17 point, what good is our coach and his staff if he can’t force good winning habits …ALSO it’s wildly known that BI took more of a playing approach this past season which makes sense considering they have no one on the team who can run point .

i don’t care if folks don’t like BI, but don’t ignore obvious facts.

Here are BI's shooting numbers his last season with Lonzo where a full 40% of his shots were in the midrange:

Compare that to last season and the big difference is he took more 3's.  There is no difference in terms of him not attacking the rim.  I just don't know that I believe that playing with Trae will cure this.  I do think it will increase the # of 3's which is good but if he improves only to his level with Lonzo I'm not sure that is great.

Again, the biggest complicating factor for BI is that he is paid $36M per and wants to go to $50M+ per.  You can't get the fit wrong if you are anchoring the team to that kind of a contract and if you aren't willing to pay him that kind of money there is the chance you lose him for nothing after next season.  I'm fine with that if he comes with Herb and the deal is really about Herb.  But in that case you aren't paying a lot of value to get Ingram which seems unlikely to me.  Volume scorers get excessive attention and generally get paid.

 

 

[AtLaS]

We need to get over Herb Jones, why would the Pelicans trade a guy like that?  A player like him can fit on ANY roster in any system and after seeing what the Timberwolves are doing the value of defensive wings is increasing by the minute.  And he's locked up on a cheap contract for the next 3 years.

No chance. 

Ingram isn't going to improve this team either at 50 million/year, doesn't help our defense and we will end up paying him just because we traded for him to avoid losing him for nothing.  He will be a bad contract with negative value in 2 years.  I'd rather dump Murray for picks than trade him for Ingram at 50 million a year.

 

Edited May 8 by AtLaS

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

We need to get over Herb Jones, why would the Pelicans trade a guy like that?  A player like him can fit on ANY roster in any system and after seeing what the Timberwolves are doing the value of defensive wings is increasing by the minute.  And he's locked up on a cheap contract for the next 3 years.

No chance. 

Ingram isn't going to improve this team either at 50 million/year, doesn't help our defense and we will end up paying him just because we traded for him to avoid losing him for nothing.  He will be a bad contract with negative value in 2 years.  I'd rather dump Murray for picks than trade him for Ingram at 50 million a year.

 

If you do the trade, you don't extend him until he shows he can fit alongside Trae.  If the Hawks are in a position to draft Matas Buzelis, they could have a similar style player interning behind him for a year at that wing spot.  

[AtLaS]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

If you do the trade, you don't extend him until he shows he can fit alongside Trae.  If the Hawks are in a position to draft Matas Buzelis, they could have a similar style player interning behind him for a year at that wing spot.  

So then you gave up Murray for nothing.  And lose Ingram for nothing.  If he doesn't fit and we are losing, flipping his expiring contract with his money demands at the deadline is going to be pennies on the dollar.

We know what this team needs.  It's defense.  Ingram doesn't help.  I don't need a one-year rental to find that out.  He's another slow, lazy, zero impact player like Hunter.  Sure he has a pretty good offensive skillset, but that's not what this team needs.  If we were building around Murray or Jrue Holiday maybe he would be a better fit.

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

So then you gave up Murray for nothing.  And lose Ingram for nothing.  If he doesn't fit and we are losing, flipping his expiring contract with his money demands at the deadline is going to be pennies on the dollar.

We know what this team needs.  It's defense.  Ingram doesn't help.  I don't need a one-year rental to find that out.  He's another slow, lazy, zero impact player like Hunter.  Sure he has a pretty good offensive skillset, but that's not what this team needs.  If we were building around Murray or Jrue Holiday maybe he would be a better fit.

I'm not pushing for an Ingram deal.  I'm dead set against it.  However, if the deal is done, Atlanta is also getting 1-2 FRPs out of the deal, so they aren't giving up Murray for nothing.  

[NekiEcko]

10 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

So then you gave up Murray for nothing.  And lose Ingram for nothing.  If he doesn't fit and we are losing, flipping his expiring contract with his money demands at the deadline is going to be pennies on the dollar.

We know what this team needs.  It's defense.  Ingram doesn't help.  I don't need a one-year rental to find that out.  He's another slow, lazy, zero impact player like Hunter.  Sure he has a pretty good offensive skillset, but that's not what this team needs.  If we were building around Murray or Jrue Holiday maybe he would be a better fit.

Any trade involving Murray would need to include draft picks, given his significant contract and the likelihood of other teams offering less desirable players. Currently, an upgrade is necessary by any means possible.

[REHawksFan]

36 minutes ago, AHF said:

Here are BI's shooting numbers his last season with Lonzo where a full 40% of his shots were in the midrange:

Compare that to last season and the big difference is he took more 3's.  There is no difference in terms of him not attacking the rim.  I just don't know that I believe that playing with Trae will cure this.  I do think it will increase the # of 3's which is good but if he improves only to his level with Lonzo I'm not sure that is great.

Wait, so now the issue is not the lack of 3s but the lack of shots at the rim?  What is the ideal shot profile you want from your wing?  Do you want all shots at the rim or at the 3pt line?  Are any midrange shots from a guy who's shot 47% over the last 5 years acceptable?  

In the 19-20 season, when he had quality pg play, his shot profile was 37.6% within 10 feet, 27.4% in the midrange, and 35.0% from 3pt. That doesn't seem crazy to me. 

It's gotten more and more out of whack over the last few years, but I don't see how it won't improve playing with Trae and being coached by Q.  

I just don't see the duplication that you see between BI and Trae or BI and Murray.  I do see the high cost though.  If we knew BI would extend at something between $35M - $40M per year, I would be fine with it.  We should be addressing the defensive needs with players that get included in the trade, either Herb or Daniels.  

[KB21]

1 minute ago, REHawksFan said:

Wait, so now the issue is not the lack of 3s but the lack of shots at the rim?  What is the ideal shot profile you want from your wing?  Do you want all shots at the rim or at the 3pt line?  Are any midrange shots from a guy who's shot 47% over the last 5 years acceptable?  

In the 19-20 season, when he had quality pg play, his shot profile was 37.6% within 10 feet, 27.4% in the midrange, and 35.0% from 3pt. That doesn't seem crazy to me. 

It's gotten more and more out of whack over the last few years, but I don't see how it won't improve playing with Trae and being coached by Q.  

I just don't see the duplication that you see between BI and Trae or BI and Murray.  I do see the high cost though.  If we knew BI would extend at something between $35M - $40M per year, I would be fine with it.  We should be addressing the defensive needs with players that get included in the trade, either Herb or Daniels.  

You should absolutely be taking a higher percentage of three-point shots and rim shots than mid range (10 feet to 3P).  I'm talking 50% plus three-point shots and less than 20% mid-range.  

[KB21]

Quin's offense in 2020-2021:

• Royce O'Neal 70.6% 3PA
• Bojan Bogdanovic 49.8% 3PA
• Joe Ingles 72.2% 3PA
• Jordan Clarkson 55.7% 3PA
• Donovan Mitchell 42.3% 3PA
• Mike Conley 52.3% 3PA
• Georges Niang 72.1% 3PA

The only regular rotation player who didn't shot three-point shots was Rudy Gobert.  

[REHawksFan]

11 minutes ago, KB21 said:

You should absolutely be taking a higher percentage of three-point shots and rim shots than mid range (10 feet to 3P).  I'm talking 50% plus three-point shots and less than 20% mid-range.  

Of course you take more.  That wasn't the question.  The question is how much more and what is a reasonable allocation?  I think you are taking it to the extreme.  How many multilevel scorers in the NBA actually take 50% or more 3s?  There's maybe 1 or 2.  Most are taking 35-40% 3s.  And there's plenty of players that have made a career of mastering the midrange shot. 

BI shooting 47% on high volume over five seasons is pretty good.  I think he needs to cut back on the volume, but I don't see a problem with him taking some.  I would think something like 40% / 25% / 35% is fine for the offense.  

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Of course you take more.  That wasn't the question.  The question is how much more and what is a reasonable allocation?  I think you are taking it to the extreme.  How many multilevel scorers in the NBA actually take 50% or more 3s?  There's maybe 1 or 2.  Most are taking 35-40% 3s.  And there's plenty of players that have made a career of mastering the midrange shot. 

BI shooting 47% on high volume over five seasons is pretty good.  I think he needs to cut back on the volume, but I don't see a problem with him taking some.  I would think something like 40% / 25% / 35% is fine for the offense.  

Here's the problem with that.  It's the same issue with Dejounte.  Both of those guys take a lot of dribbles to get to that shot.  It's usually an isolation play where they slow the entire offense down.  It's also a shot that most defenses want you to take.  

[AHF]

51 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Wait, so now the issue is not the lack of 3s but the lack of shots at the rim?  What is the ideal shot profile you want from your wing?  Do you want all shots at the rim or at the 3pt line?  Are any midrange shots from a guy who's shot 47% over the last 5 years acceptable?  

In the 19-20 season, when he had quality pg play, his shot profile was 37.6% within 10 feet, 27.4% in the midrange, and 35.0% from 3pt. That doesn't seem crazy to me. 

It's gotten more and more out of whack over the last few years, but I don't see how it won't improve playing with Trae and being coached by Q.  

I just don't see the duplication that you see between BI and Trae or BI and Murray.  I do see the high cost though.  If we knew BI would extend at something between $35M - $40M per year, I would be fine with it.  We should be addressing the defensive needs with players that get included in the trade, either Herb or Daniels.  

There have been multiple discussions around this with Mikey (just to use an example) advocating for Ingram because of how much rim pressure he applies.  I'm saying I don't see it but see an overabundance of midrange shots.

The duplication I see is as follows:  neither was a good defender; neither pressures the defense with their perimeter shooting in a meaningful way (teams tend to leave them there and live with the consequences - there isn't real fear there); neither pressures the rim and draws a bunch of free throws; both contribute in similar ways in terms of rebounding; both contribute in similar ways in terms of secondary playmaking; neither is the lead scorer on a good team but are probably best suited to be a tertiary scorer (maybe secondary if the fit is really good).

The prospect of Ingram demanding $50>+ is very real in my mind.  I expect he will want that.  I think it is possible some team will give it to him because he is a volume scorer entering his prime and those guys tend to get overpaid.  Counting on him to get less money than FVV is not a bet that I'd be real confident in.  Herb is a defensive difference maker and value contract so he is the focus of the deal if he ends up coming to us.  I don't know that Daniels will reach that level.  He is an intriguing player but I'd like the defensive stud we get from NO to be the core of the deal not a throw in with Ingram.  So Murphy or Jones would be the ideal for me.

[capstone21]

We need to bring in players that will defend.  We are not going anywhere by just adding offense to offense

[AtLaS]

1000%.  Swapping Murray for Ingram doesn't improve this team at all.  And IMO there is no way NO includes Herb Jones in the deal.  I hope I'm wrong but the whole world is watching what Minnesota is doing and will want long, defensive wings.  

I think it's just our FO having conversations simply because he is available and he is long.  But he doesn't play defense.  That won't work beside Trae.  I get it, we can't stand pat but I just don't like Ingram as the sole prize.  

Murray is an excellent asset with his production + contract situation.  We don't need to rush it.  I would still be open to trading Trae and keeping Murray too depending on the offer.  I know that will create issues too but we need to feel out the market.  This offseason and after playoff exits, teams will be looking to make moves.

[MaceCase]

If Dyson Vacuums and a couple of 1sts are the additionals, I think the deal has legs.  Daniels may not sound like much but he might be the perfect Eric Snow to attach to Trae's last ride. 

[theheroatl]

34 minutes ago, capstone21 said:

We need to bring in players that will defend.  We are not going anywhere by just adding offense to offense

Preach on brotha

[Dragitoff]

16 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

If Dyson Vacuums and a couple of 1sts are the additionals, I think the deal has legs.  Daniels may not sound like much but he might be the perfect Eric Snow to attach to Trae's last ride. 

I was just about to post the same thing.  Dyson's shot is shaky, but he's got the size and POA defense we desperately need.  He's a legit 6'7" combo guard who can attack and defend.  That's a skillset we don't currently have on the roster.  I could even see him find his way into the starting lineup between Trae and BI as our primary POA defender.