Scheduled games coming up.... Hard...Co

[Diesel]

Coming up on the schedule, 

Knicks, 76ers, Pacers,   I'm not looking over Miami either. 

This season is different.   Different teams stepping up high.

Houston is actually Good.  Udoka is still a smart coach.   Watch your wife... but he can coach young players. 

I peeked at what Utah is doing.  Big Johnny is over there not having bad games. 

This season is hard to call.   Giannis can put up 50 something and Milwaukee still loses.  The Pacers are a problem.  And then we have yet to figure it all out.. but it takes at least 20 games...

 

[Gray Mule]

Nothing comes easy.  If victories came easy, who would really appreciate them?  I revel in every one !!

[JayBirdHawk]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

it takes at least 20 games...

This - I think we'll know a little more after the first 20.

We need to win our next 2 games vs Heat then at Detroit. That'll have us at 7-3 over our 1st 10 games.

Then we have a 4 game home stand vs Knicks (we can't lose to them at home again), Sixers (rejuvenated after getting rid of Harden), Pacers (playing well and I think 1st in offense) and finally the Nets.

We have got to make The Farm a tough place to play.

[sturt]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

Watch your wife... but he can coach young players.

 

[sturt]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

Big Johnny is over there not having bad games. 

I have no reason to doubt the comment, and won't bother to investigate, but even if the opposite were true, you'd have a tough time convincing me that JC wouldn't have been a significant contributor to this team however Quinn would choose to use him... and that, whatever this team accomplishes eventually, it would have been somewhat if not substantially better with him than without... best case, and with some luck on the health front, maybe even dominant.

[sturt]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

it takes at least 20 games

 

42 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I think we'll know a little more after the first 20.

 

 

Is that okay to say around here now? Or, no?

 

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, sturt said:

I have no reason to doubt the comment, and won't bother to investigate, but even if the opposite were true, you'd have a tough time convincing me that JC wouldn't have been a significant contributor to this team however Quinn would choose to use him... and that, whatever this team accomplishes eventually, it would have been somewhat if not substantially better with him than without... best case, and with some luck on the health front, maybe even dominant.

I think JJ is proving to be a significant upgrade and JC makes too much to be a rotation big off the bench.  I hate the value we got for trading him but I’m fully good with the idea of prioritizing JJ over him.  As a fan, I don’t like the idea of dumping for $$ which was obviously the other principle “benefit” of the trade.

[sturt]

54 minutes ago, AHF said:

JC makes too much to be a rotation big off the bench.

How is that even relevant to what production you get on the court?

Maybe maybe you could make the argument that the player making $25m as a rotation big would be a distraction... if not for the fact... that we're talking about JC... the most positive force in the face of negative headwinds to possibly ever wear a Hawks uni, and maybe even an NBA uni.

And. The comparison isn't b/t JC and JJ... it's, rather, as you just suggested, b/t JC and whoever is getting the other minutes. JJ was always going to get significant minutes regardless.

 

My post stands as stated. It's not that this team cannot achieve great things, it's that this team will by sheer logic (assuming JC isn't a total wash out in UTA) achieve lesser great things than it could have. True to Atlanta, my ass.

 

Don't give Tony or his minions the benefit/satisfaction of reading this stuff... it's what he wants to read... it tells him you're okay with hamsters... happy owner, happy life, and all that.

(Just to be clear, you're not okay with hamsters, tho... rite?)

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

We have got to make The Farm a tough place to play.

It rings out in my head.  Philadelphia rejuvenated.  Even though they lost the bigger star, they came back with some gritty Philadelphia like players who will make beating them harder.   However, I feel good about us.   Even though we have not put it all together yet, we're going to be a hard team to beat this year.   We put up 73 in one half on Orlando.   If we learn to put that together with the spurts of good defense we have been playing, I don't see a team in this league that we can't beat. 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

I have no reason to doubt the comment, and won't bother to investigate, but even if the opposite were true, you'd have a tough time convincing me that JC wouldn't have been a significant contributor to this team however Quinn would choose to use him... and that, whatever this team accomplishes eventually, it would have been somewhat if not substantially better with him than without... best case, and with some luck on the health front, maybe even dominant.

I think a change of scenery was good for JC.   I will always appreciate what he did as a Hawk, especially in the community and I hold no ill feelings towards him.  He was a true professional the whole time.  He seems to have learned to play with his physical obstacles (Finger & Plantar Fas)... I would say that based on what I have seen, he's is their most consistent/efficient player. 

Had he stayed, he would have been what JJ is.  JJ is more a 3/4 whereas JC was more a 4/5.  However, had he stayed, Quin would have found a way to optimize his play. 

 

 

[sturt]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think a change of scenery was good for JC. 

Plausible.

But selfishly as a fan, I don't care, I want to conserve talent. I'm not and never have been won over by any owner's argument that my team got better by subtracting a productive, cooperative player's salary. I'll not ever come anywhere close to forgiving Tony Ressler on this one... in case that wasn't already very well understood. I salivate at the thought of what this team was going to look like with Quinn being JC's coach.

[Diesel]

47 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think JJ is proving to be a significant upgrade and JC makes too much to be a rotation big off the bench.  I hate the value we got for trading him but I’m fully good with the idea of prioritizing JJ over him.  As a fan, I don’t like the idea of dumping for $$ which was obviously the other principle “benefit” of the trade.

Although parts of what you say are true, I don't totally agree with what you have said.  This is the hallmark of an AHF post.     Where I do agree...  Trading  him for capspace - bad.   

Where I disagree...  JJ is a significant upgrade. 

I think JJ is what we need at this time.   I can't call him an upgrade in that I have never seen JC in Snyder's system.  Last year was Prunty's system.   I think Snyder could have optimize JC's play.  Especially with his better shooting.   

 

This is the tale of the tape so far and I don't see "Significant Upgrade".    They play differently and different things are asked of them.. but from the shooting standpoint, JJ is better at the fastbreak points... JC is better from outside.  JJ is better defensive rebounding.   JC is better getting offensive rebounds.   IMO...  JJ = 3/4    JC = 4/5.

 

[thecampster]

12 hours ago, Diesel said:

Coming up on the schedule, 

Knicks, 76ers, Pacers,   I'm not looking over Miami either. 

This season is different.   Different teams stepping up high.

Houston is actually Good.  Udoka is still a smart coach.   Watch your wife... but he can coach young players. 

I peeked at what Utah is doing.  Big Johnny is over there not having bad games. 

This season is hard to call.   Giannis can put up 50 something and Milwaukee still loses.  The Pacers are a problem.  And then we have yet to figure it all out.. but it takes at least 20 games...

 

This is why PPG/RPG is so misleading.

10 game sample is close to enough. Yes, he's scored and rebounded but not in "a winning way". Plays impact much more than stats and advanced metrics start to prove that stuff out.

Having Lauri taking away the best big defender every night is really helping him but his flaws are evident. Utah is not good defensively and scheme is part of it, but the Hawks = better defensively so far and the Jazz are worse....he's the main common denominator.

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

Plausible.

But selfishly as a fan, I don't care, I want to conserve talent. I'm not and never have been won over by any owner's argument that my team got better by subtracting a productive, cooperative player's salary. I'll not ever come anywhere close to forgiving Tony Ressler on this one... in case that wasn't already very well understood. I salivate at the thought of what this team was going to look like with Quinn being JC's coach.

Sturt, it’s pretty clear JC wanted out, as evidenced by how happy he was to be traded, so just be happy for him.  We dont have enough minutes for him here anyways, and he is not the type of player Quin wants in the rotation… he cannot dribble or pass.  I was not happy with the return we got but it is what it is.  It’s an odd hill to die on, particularly after our solid start with JJ being the most impactful player.  I parrot @AHFs sentiment on this one.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

This is why PPG/RPG is so misleading.

10 game sample is close to enough. Yes, he's scored and rebounded but not in "a winning way". Plays impact much more than stats and advanced metrics start to prove that stuff out.

Having Lauri taking away the best big defender every night is really helping him but his flaws are evident. Utah is not good defensively and scheme is part of it, but the Hawks = better defensively so far and the Jazz are worse....he's the main common denominator.

There's a reason why nobody uses OFFRTG and DEFRTG as serious goto stats...  They are so pace dependent.  They often are just plain flat off and you get a misestimation.   For instance, you gave me Jalen's OFFRTG and DEFRTG  let's compare to this players...

Yeah.  It's Kevin Durant... and Yes, by your suggestion,   JJ is playing better than KD.

Would you choose JJ over KD?

 

[sturt]

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Sturt, it’s pretty clear JC wanted out, as evidenced by how happy he was to be traded

 

Really? He wanted out? Because you're gonna have educate me on that one. I've seen only that he was very, very, very, very, very, very frustrated that he was traded.

That's not to pretend I've studied it, but it is to say, right up until the day the trade was announced, there was no indication at all that he was anxious to be traded. "Well, he'd been in the rumor mill for literally years." Sure. But what happened after each time he wasn't traded? Each time, there were compliments directed toward him for how he'd soldiered through the mental ordeal that that is, complimented that he'd never become a problem child through any of that. And when asked after a deadline, he would respond that he was glad to still be a Hawk or words to that effect.

So, sure, it's not illogical to read into the situation, "Surely he was ready to leave by now." But that's what it is... reading into the situation. There is no evidence of that.

Did he say some things on his way out the door? Well, what would you think would happen in that situation? Absolutely. And salt in that wound, he's traded for literally a $1 lottery ticket by NBA standards. Of course you'd anticipate he'd express his frustration at that point. Of course if you're him, you're going to say things that endear you to the team that wanted you, not the team that's just decided to dump you. So, no, "how happy he was to be traded" is not the same thing the day before the trade that it was the day of the trade.

All that said... none of that actually matters to the point I was making... of course.

 

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

We dont have enough minutes for him here anyways

You're not going to successfully sell me on the idea that JC wouldn't get minutes without being able to quote Quinn himself.

I regularly said last spring in reaction to all the trades proposed on this site and all the certainty among insiders and outsider alike that the team was going to make significant moves that I was going to be fine with any move the team made as long as there was something that pointed to the deal having Quinn's fingerprints on it, if not his outright explicit endorsement. 

If that happened, educate me (no kidding), because I quit cold turkey caring to read or watch anything related to Hawks roster moves at that moment the owner received payroll relief and Quinn got zero, zilch, nada.

 

Welcome to your opinion. You're the boss of you. But if I may speculate, I take that opinion as that of a person desperate to emotionally satiate himself that "it's not so bad"... what might be called in this case trying to mentally remedy the seller's remorse that one ought to feel if your team just sent out a starter for a $1 lottery ticket.

Collins would have been a force under Quinn Snyder. He was already turning the corner in terms of shooting that began to swing backward when he hurt his finger.

 

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

he cannot dribble or pass

I made the point here multiple times, this was a popular thing to say, but misses that when Trae wasn't on the court with JC, JC did dribble... JC did pass. The key seemed to me to be the arrival of DJM and the way the offense ran in Trae's absence. But under Nate, Trae and JC shared the court a lot.

 

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

It’s an odd hill to die on

I don't know whether I understand what this means. What could possibly be "odd" about anything I've said? If anything, assuming what Dies has reported is accurate, there's just still more reason to stand on the hill I'm standing on. And don't come at me with "Well, yeah, but that's under a different coach" since it's generally held that the ATL coach and the UTH coach share philosophies and approaches.

 

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

I parrot @AHFs sentiment on this one.

Okay. Well, I have the same response, then...

4 hours ago, sturt said:

How is that even relevant to what production you get on the court?

Maybe maybe you could make the argument that the player making $25m as a rotation big would be a distraction... if not for the fact... that we're talking about JC... the most positive force in the face of negative headwinds to possibly ever wear a Hawks uni, and maybe even an NBA uni.

And. The comparison isn't b/t JC and JJ... it's, rather, as you just suggested, b/t JC and whoever is getting the other minutes. JJ was always going to get significant minutes regardless.

 

My post stands as stated. It's not that this team cannot achieve great things, it's that this team will by sheer logic (assuming JC isn't a total wash out in UTA) achieve lesser great things than it could have. True to Atlanta, my ass.

 

Don't give Tony or his minions the benefit/satisfaction of reading this stuff... it's what he wants to read... it tells him you're okay with hamsters... happy owner, happy life, and all that.

(Just to be clear, you're not okay with hamsters, tho... rite?)

 

Look. I made my decision to leave. You made your decision, as practically everyone else has as far as I would know, to stay.

It's all good.

I'm not against the Hawks. I'm for them, but only passively. They're not going to occupy anything close to the amount of attention they've done for most of 50 years for me. They've been replaced now by other options. And I'm for you as fans. I know how much you've wanted success, because I was one of you. It would be cool for this team to finally get to the holy grail.

I just am not going to go for the ride any longer, now that I have clear and compelling evidence that the ride owner is content with a lesser ride generating a satisfactory net income number. My wrath is singularly focused on the guy who I believe conned me to believe he was genuinely committed to a championship, and would not be satisfied with just making money. I've had enough of hamster wheel entertainment, and that's the most likely outcome as we sit here today given Ressler's actions (not his talk).

[kg01]

I just keep looking at the schedule and wondering when we play MEM and DET.  Seems like the tOp TeAmS have all played them dregs like 6 times each. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, sturt said:

Plausible.

But selfishly as a fan, I don't care, I want to conserve talent. I'm not and never have been won over by any owner's argument that my team got better by subtracting a productive, cooperative player's salary. I'll not ever come anywhere close to forgiving Tony Ressler on this one... in case that wasn't already very well understood. I salivate at the thought of what this team was going to look like with Quinn being JC's coach.

Unfortunately for you, you'll probably be on the wrong side of history on this.

JJ was the roster upgrade we needed, who also possessed the versatility to make the entire squad better.  And we didn't even have to trade for it. We simply had to make room to get him more playing time.  And the only way to do that, was to move JC, who arguably has peaked as a player.

Without moving JC, we'd still be looking to find ways to get JJ on the floor, similar what we're doing with AJ.  That would not be good for this team.

I do think Quin could've made JC a better player than what he'd showed the past 2 seasons.  But he has the potential to make JJ an All-Star level player, especially if he starts to make open 3s.

 

I also hate to tell you this, but I don't think the new ownership has missed since they've taken over

• Traded a bunch of 2nd rd picks for Bey, who has become a key rotation player
• Fired Nate and hired Quin
• Signed Murray to a very team friendly extension
• Signed OO to an even more team friendly extension
• Traded JC for scraps, but retained flexibility and opened up playing time for JJ

We may not have liked how they took over in the beginning, or the circumstances around it.  But what have they really done wrong since taking over?

Edited November 12, 2023 by TheNorthCydeRises

[sturt]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Without moving JC, we'd still be looking to find ways to get JJ on the floor, similar what we're doing with AJ.  That would not be good for this team.

Think you're just telling yourself that, North, all due respect (and I mean the respect part)...

JC was always going to be an asset to some degree, if not a significant degree under Quinn. There's no getting around that.

[sturt]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But what have they really done wrong since taking over?

Oh geez.

I get it... I sometimes if not often like to bring some critical thought to a topic where there's been some reason that most of the analysis falls to one side or the other... no problem with that.

But. First, let's tease this out... there are GM basketball moves and there are (owner-driven) GM payroll moves.

GM basketball moves

- Traded a bunch of 2nd round picks for Bey... good move, but then a fuller picture we learned after the fact that it wasn't even our GM's idea... and practically any of us who would have picked up the phone for that phone call with GSW would have been more than happy to oblige. GM gets credit, but you didn't have to be Jerry West to pull that one off.

- Fired Nate, hired Quinn... good move, but fuller picture... that one also fell in our collective lap thanks to the relationship of Kyle Korver with Quinn... however, higher marks are deserved since, sure, it was smart to have hired Kyle in the first place. Still, again, near zero of us Hawks fans would have hedged on that decision. It made itself once the opportunity emerged.

Owner-driven GM payroll moves

- Signed Murray and OO to "team-friendly" extensions... we'll see... I know the predictions and the optimism... God knows, we have a history here of calling some of those accurately, and in other instances, getting them terribly wrong. Not really a knowable thing so early on, and the conventional wisdom would be to believe that both sides had reason to be satisfied with the final numbers in those deals.

- Didn't sign Bey to any extension... see immediately above... maybe a good call, maybe not.

- "Traded JC for scraps, but retained flexibility and opened up playing time for JJ"... from a basketball perspective, this gets an F any way you want to look at it, and not even one of those high Fs... this is down there closer to 0 than to 59%...

"scraps" = unconscionably bad

"retained flexibility" = meaningless because there's not been any talent obtained yet, and moreover, neither is there likely to be b/c (a) well, Tony's payroll is Tony's payroll and (b) to make a move of any dramatic improvement would almost certainly cost some draft capital which this team (smartly) is loathe to give up...

"opened up playing time for JJ" = nah, doesn't work like that... JJ was always going to get big minutes, and perhaps start from the git-go... JC on the second line would eat up other teams' second lines...

 

 

What they've gotten right? Deals any of us would have gotten right. Wouldn't we? Any of us.

What we can't know if they've gotten it right or wrong? Time will tell if the right decisions were made on the extensions... premature to celebrate, but I get the desperate want to call something from the off-season a definitive success.

What they've gotten wrong? Question that inherently answers itself where JC is concerned, but I would add that it's that deal that didn't get made that would have added a key asset to the roster this off-season except it would have cost the owner tax dollars.

 

I mean, seriously, friends... the quickest way to ensure this team never makes a move to get over the hump is for Tony Ressler and his minions to read things on this site that serve to reassure him you'll forgive him for a third and a fourth and a fifth salary dump of a major asset. Hamsterland on the horizon if your reaction to this kind of thing is to put your collective arm around Tony's shoulder and empathize with his "pain". Dr. Phil-ism is right... best predictor of future behavior is immediate past behavior. Jay, too, has been right on that one, far ahead of me... she's been the lead skeptic on paying tax for years now, in spite of Tony's occasional reassurances to the contrary.

Be well.