Hawks looking to trade

[theheroatl]

3 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

Reputable reporters who cover the league, such as Brad Rowland and Michael Scotto, have said the teams have talked recently.

Those two considered reputable reporters? lol 

[SalvorMallow]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

It's harder to name five who don't. Most guys are at least average off the ball. 

The bad ones are

Trae

John Wall when he was in the league 

Westbrook

D. Russell

Dennis Schröder 

OK @NBASupes I made a custom stat just for you in Excel...

I'm trying to quantify "Good" off the ball because no stat really captures that.  Here is the definition I used:

Guards that played more than 30MPG this year

Sum of field goal attempts that are generated by:

• Catch and Shoot
• Cuts
• Coming off a screen
• Dribble handoff

This to me means that they are running offball actions and then attempting to score from those actions.

If I leave in all guards, heres the top 10

Steph, Tyler Herro (a PG in name only) and Kyrie playing next to ball-dominant Luka are the only PG that made the list.

Look at the names at the top...Definitely passes the sniff test for great off-ball players. Curry is a complete and total outlier, so using him as a model is very difficult.

Filtering to only point guards, I get this:
 

Apparently SGA is the worst offball player in the league, at least by this metric  Trae is only 1 offball action per game from being in the 50th percentile. Most of these guys aren't blowing Trae away.

 

Notice how most of the guys near the bottom are ball-dominant high usage guards???

Of course there are offball actions that aren't captured by the stats, like getting an assist, hockey assist, generating gravity, etc, but this is the best I could come up with and it looks pretty accurate.

 

@TheNorthCydeRises

[JayBirdHawk]

19 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 Surely he can't be sulking because he's playing out of position ( something he had to know coming in ).

Circling back to this. I think in Nate's my turn, your turn mid-range offense, he saw ample time at PG which was most likely what he promised.

Enter Quin with his PhD offense which requires a little 'more' - he's not getting as much time at PG with Trae? Quin seems to have made that decision that he wants the ball in Trae's hand. DJ having difficulty adjusting?

[cam1218]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

Djm has scrubbed all Hawks mentions from all his social media today 

Haven’t we all at this point lol. 

[Wretch]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

Djm has scrubbed all Hawks mentions from all his social media today 

These dudes know that we hang on every word they say and every little thing they do on social media.  Especially during "" season.  At the very least, it's an odd choice and it sucks if it has come down to sending signals and trade requests.  If there's a problem with fit or performance, it has more to do with how the team as a whole is constructed.  If we're moving on from DJ, I would rather it be less messy/personal and good for all parties involved.  I got nothing but love for dude.

The "off the ball" conversation is a tired one.  Especially because every conversation on the Squawk seems to always settle into two very polarized, "either/or" camps.  Nobody believes Trae is Steph.  We stopped comparing their styles years ago.  They are two very good and extremely different ball players.  The bottom line is every team with more than one star player has to figure out how use them together and get the most out of them while they don't have the ball in their hands.

Whether you think that means cutting around 50 screens or getting a dominant big man to play inside/out...to get the most out of Trae, there has to be someone for the defense to be concerned about away from the ball when he has it or you have to get him away from the ball with a secondary facilitator/scoring threat.  Otherwise, we're going to keep seeing the team fade during key possessions and especially in the clutch.

Having said it multiple times in interviews, DJ himself thought he would be that difference maker coming here.  I don't blame him that it's not working out, but it doesn't change what the team needs offensively if we're going to build it around Trae.

[terrell]

6 hours ago, GameTime said:

@Sothron Please tell me this is false

 

The fk??

[Wretch]

Also...if we trade Jalen Johnson for a Siakam rental, I'm out for the season and for the foreseeable future if it turns into just a rental.

[theheroatl]

I don't think Siakam is coming folks.. time to pipe down.

 

As for fixing our real issues.. is Landry and Kyle gonna gloss over our DFEI? https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/defensive-efficiency

[Sothron]

59 minutes ago, terrell said:

The fk??

I reported weeks ago the new talks stalled because Toronto was asking for JJ in a deal. 

It would be insane to trade JJ especially for a rental. 

[Threezus]

3 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I reported weeks ago the new talks stalled because Toronto was asking for JJ in a deal. 

It would be insane to trade JJ especially for a rental. 

JJ is the exact type of person i want at the 3 next to a guy like Siakam.  I know JJ plays the 4 for right now but the dude is more than athletic enough and skilled enough to play the 3.  Heck he is even an above avg passer you would want to pair with a guy like Siakam to help get him the ball when Trae isn't doing it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, cam1218 said:

JJ is our second best player, if we trade him for Pascal it’s a disaster. Pascal would be our third best player.

If JJ is gone, who is our 2nd best player if we acquire Siakam?

How many clips of this guy do you all have to see, to see that this guy can really play basketball?

 

 

Who in the hell on our team besides Trae, can do this as the #1 option in an offense?  This dude is not a slouch.

 

The best case scenario for the Hawks is to pair up Siakam and JJ on a frontline with ( insert Hawks center ).

Landry can't be that stupid or desperate to trade JJ, in order to get Siakam.

 

[terrell]

20 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I reported weeks ago the new talks stalled because Toronto was asking for JJ in a deal. 

It would be insane to trade JJ especially for a rental. 

Id hate LF even more than I do Schlenk.. smh

Dre or Bogi + AJ or no deal.. Throw in Bey if needed. lol

 

Edited January 1 by terrell

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, SalvorMallow said:

OK @NBASupes I made a custom stat just for you in Excel...

I'm trying to quantify "Good" off the ball because no stat really captures that.  Here is the definition I used:

Guards that played more than 30MPG this year

Sum of field goal attempts that are generated by:

• Catch and Shoot
• Cuts
• Coming off a screen
• Dribble handoff

This to me means that they are running offball actions and then attempting to score from those actions.

If I leave in all guards, heres the top 10

Steph, Tyler Herro (a PG in name only) and Kyrie playing next to ball-dominant Luka are the only PG that made the list.

Look at the names at the top...Definitely passes the sniff test for great off-ball players. Curry is a complete and total outlier, so using him as a model is very difficult.

Filtering to only point guards, I get this:
 

Apparently SGA is the worst offball player in the league, at least by this metric  Trae is only 1 offball action per game from being in the 50th percentile. Most of these guys aren't blowing Trae away.

 

Notice how most of the guys near the bottom are ball-dominant high usage guards???

Of course there are offball actions that aren't captured by the stats, like getting an assist, hockey assist, generating gravity, etc, but this is the best I could come up with and it looks pretty accurate.

 

@TheNorthCydeRises

 

Excellent post to close out 2023.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I keep saying to truly have Trae off ball requires specific sets with timely screens, cuts, etc, and most importantly, someone to actually deliver the ball for those opportunities. Move him with PURPOSE AND INTENTION!

I do think in some instances, I need Trae to relocate his position on the floor in lieu of being just stationary.

As I watched the game today, Trae does pick and choose when he wants to be off ball.   It's interesting.   JJ gets the ball.  JJ looks at Trae.  Trae waves him to go up court and initiate the offense.   At some point, I believe that JJ will have the instinct to know when to initiate and when to defer.   Trae does something similar with DJ.   I did see them run a set about three times where Trae will give the ball to Dj.  DJ will play a two man game with somebody else and then find Trae in the corner!  Swish!

The problem is.... I don't think DJ is running the offense.   I think he's running a set play.  That's my problem with DJ as a PG.   He is killer at getting his own shot.  However, I think Pop used him as a system PG.  Meaning, he really didn't have to make many decisions.   

Trae is on a whole nother tier.  It's laughable that somebody would say Trade Trae and make DJ the PG...   Obviously have not watched DJ.   I love DJ.  I love the fact that he can get his own and he can handle the ball (much better than last year).  But the difference between he and trae are clear.   Trae is thinking the moment as he's playing.  He knows where everybody is supposed to be... but at the same time he's looking at what the defensive is giving.   What makes you mad but then it's beautiful to watch is a busted play where Trae was trying to do something because of the defense.   Say he's trying to make a pass to OO... he's never going to give a bounce pass.   He's going to zoom it where it needs to be.  It's probably going to be a no look.  And if OO catches it and goes right up it's 2 points.   What makes it a busted play is, usually.. it seems like they practiced something else and this was an audible called on the spot.   So OO is never ready for the pass. 

Fortunately... CC and JJ are in tune... to the audibles.  Unfortunately, they seem to be the only two.  The more Trae works with JJ, the more unstoppable he will be. 

 

[Threezus]

18 minutes ago, terrell said:

Id hate LF even more than I do Schlenk.. smh

Dre or Bogi + AJ or no deal.. Throw in Bey if needed. lol

 

Im more than fine giving up any of the young guys to get Siakam outside of JJ.   To me if we give up JJ to get him then we don't improve no where near enough to compete with the big dogs in the east.  Where as if you can legit pair  Murray, JJ, Siakam, and Capela around a improved Trae on defense.   Thats 4 guys deep that i can trust to be above avg on defense with legit size for their position around trae.  Hunter has enough to be good on defense but offers very little else outside of that.  He is horrible at rebounding compared to JJ, doesn't have the passing ability JJ does, and sure as heck don't have the upside in he long term JJ does.   I doubt he will ever reach it but JJ has every skill you need to be a Tatum type of player and if you could even get tatum lite like 70% of Tatum that is a super valuable player.    Hunter, AJ, Onyeka, Bufkin, Mills im more than happy offering up for Siakam at this point if need be.

[theheroatl]

47 minutes ago, Threezus said:

JJ is the exact type of person i want at the 3 next to a guy like Siakam.  I know JJ plays the 4 for right now but the dude is more than athletic enough and skilled enough to play the 3.  Heck he is even an above avg passer you would want to pair with a guy like Siakam to help get him the ball when Trae isn't doing it.

I’ve seen many here clamor for JJ at the 4 but he would be a monster dominant at the 3.

 

thank you for confirming my ideals

 

undersized 3’s are not the solution.. stick a JJ on wings and we are rolling

Edited January 1 by theheroatl

[Threezus]

5 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

I’ve seen many here clamor for JJ at the 4 but he would be a monster dominant at the 3.

 

thank you for confirming my ideals

 

undersized 3’s are not the solution.. stick a JJ on wings and we are rolling

I personally feel a star 3 with size is the most important best position in the nba.   This is not discrediting players like Joker, Embidd, Luka, Giannis.  But i just feel over the years a elite superstar 3 has been the guy you want to get and build around.  Lebron, Butler, Durant, Melo, Leonard, PG13, Tatum etc...

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Threezus said:

But i just feel over the years a elite superstar 3 has been the guy you want to get and build around.  Lebron, Butler, Durant, Melo, Leonard, PG13, Tatum etc...

1. Joker = Chip
2. Embiid = No Chip
3. Giannis = Chip
4. Luka = No Chip.

vs.

1. Lebron = Chip
2. Butler = No Chip
3. Durant = Is he a 3?
4. Melo = No Chip
5. Leonard = Chip
6. PG13 = No Chip
7. Tatum = No Chip

It's an interesting theory.  Basketball History says.. Chips come through Dominant Bigs...  Then you see a picture of Pat Ewing with No Chips. 

IN these type of debates, I think team construction is so very important.  When Philly was trusting the process, did they know that Simmons would fail terribly in the mental part of the game?  Could they foresee that Trae would scare his career away?  Whereas a guy like Lebron, I would almost say that most of his Chips were handed to him by the league.  But the team matters just as much as the position.  Honestly only Lebron and Jokic has willed a team to a chip... and Jokic got a lot of help at the end.    Bottom line is regardless of the position, the GM has to do his job.

 

 

 

[Sothron]

Durant was a 3 when he won his chips FWIW.