It's time to go there.... Nate = Better than Snyder.

[Diesel]

Bring your best argument.   Snyder Lovers.  Nate Likers...(because nobody loved Nate). 

Here's the main point though....

Hawks record when Lloyd Pierce was fired = 14-20. 

Hawks record when they fired Nate = 29-30.

Hawks Record today = 14-21

Hawks fired nate at 29-30.  Bogi had missed the first 22 games.  We all know how big a part of the team Bogi represented.   

So what's the referendum on Coach Snyder?

[Eddielives]

I'm going to give Snyder at least a full season before even beginning to compare the two.

[JeffS17]

Diesel just let go of Nate bro

[SalvorMallow]

16 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Bring your best argument.   Snyder Lovers.  Nate Likers...(because nobody loved Nate). 

Here's the main point though....

Hawks record when Lloyd Pierce was fired = 14-20. 

Hawks record when they fired Nate = 29-30.

Hawks Record today = 14-21

Hawks fired nate at 29-30.  Bogi had missed the first 22 games.  We all know how big a part of the team Bogi represented.   

So what's the referendum on Coach Snyder?

Nate had:
Aaron Holiday (.053 ws/48) instead of Garrison Mathews(.036)

Justin Holiday (.009) instead of Wesley Matthews (-.004)

AJ Griffin (.075) instead of AJ Griffin (-.084)

John Collins (.095) instead of Saddiq Bey (.070)

Saddiq Bey (.119) instead of Saddiq Bey (.070)

etc...

 

Even guys like Jarret Culver (.014) that we thought were super rough performed better than almost anyone after our first 2 subs.

Should I go on? We took the already rough roster that Nate had to deal with, stripped down any sense of depth, and expected Quin to win more games at the very beginning of the season with a new scheme. Unrealistic expectations.

[Diesel]

45 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

Nate had:
Aaron Holiday (.053 ws/48) instead of Garrison Mathews(.036)

Justin Holiday (.009) instead of Wesley Matthews (-.004)

AJ Griffin (.075) instead of AJ Griffin (-.084)

John Collins (.095) instead of Saddiq Bey (.070)

Saddiq Bey (.119) instead of Saddiq Bey (.070)

etc...

 

Even guys like Jarret Culver (.014) that we thought were super rough performed better than almost anyone after our first 2 subs.

Should I go on? We took the already rough roster that Nate had to deal with, stripped down any sense of depth, and expected Quin to win more games at the very beginning of the season with a new scheme. Unrealistic expectations.

JJ?  Bogi?  A better DJM?  A better Trae?  We have no comparisons for that?

It's a talking point.    This is not about @Diesel or @JeffS17.  Let's just lay everything out and look at it.   Nothing will come from it.. we know this.. we owe Snyder 40 Million dollars.   He's ours for the next 5 years.    I just want to point out the hypocrisy where it exists. 

I can detail what will happen.

1. Landry will be fired. 
2. KK will run the show for a half of a season or so.
3. We will hire somebody with experience.   I can see us making a run at a guy like Jon Horst.  We gonna Masai Ujiri that thing... pick him while he's still working for somebody else. 
4. This may lead to a firesale. 

 

But the question still remains... Who is the better coach?

59 minutes ago, Eddielives said:

I'm going to give Snyder at least a full season before even beginning to compare the two.

Oh, I agree.  I will give him longer than that because he has to work through some of the crap that Travis left. 

 

[JeffS17]

Only thing I'll say is that it's fair for you to critique my post for dismissing this one.  I just don't have the energy to contextualize the two right now.  Maybe I'll come back to this one on a slow day at work. 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Only thing I'll say is that it's fair for you to critique my post for dismissing this one.  I just don't have the energy to contextualize the two right now.  Maybe I'll come back to this one on a slow day at work. 

That's cool. It's conversation and context.   Life always comes first. 

 

[RedDawg#8]

Based purely on product and results it’s not even a question. Even Prunty got more out of this core roster than Quinn has.

But, I am giving him the benefit of doubt, maybe foolishly, maybe because I have no other choice.

Quinn had (2) losing seasons in Utah before they became perennial winners. I do buy the idea that his system takes time to implement. Heck even Bud started with a losing record his first season in charge. This brand of basketball is not for the faint of mind.

The Hawks stopped developing players when they switched from LP to Nate, so a lot of our young guys have hit a re-set on their clock under Quinn as he works against bad habits that have not been coached out. You don’t look this lost on defense as a team compared to just last season when the only player you lost was JC. They didn’t forget how to play, they are learning a new language.

Quinn has a great staff, he has some great basketball minds working behind the scenes. I absolutely hate his utilization of personnel in the face of injury or foul trouble, but I am accepting that he is not willing to put a band aid on this roster anymore just so we can have style points and win now. He is absolutely committed to tearing down the old way of playing so that our ceiling raises from just good to potentially great some day.

Again, I could be foolish but what choice do we have but to buy in?

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Heck even Bud started with a losing record his first season in charge.

I do remember the start of BudBall.  Hated it.  Just a bunch of guys putting up threes and going out to dinner.   But Bud was allowed to semi Clean house.   The only guys left from the old team were Jeff Teague and Al Horford.  New Quin kept the same guys that were there before him...  Hayward, Favors, Burke...  but he got a rookie named Ingles and a rookie Rodney Hood.    Those guys played.   When they started winning,  those two were starting and you saw the emergence of Rudy Gobert and George Hill.   So the formulation seems to be that he surrounded his scoring (Hayward) with Defense (Hill, Gobert).  Plus he had guys who had size and could shoot (Hood, Ingles).  And even some old vets that could still contribute (Joe Johnson and Boris Diaw). 

• So Bud's first year = 38 wins. 
• Quin's first year in Utah = 38 wins. 

So for us.. 38 wins should be a benchmark.

 

 

 

 

[Gray Mule]

Nope.  Nate is not better.  All of us try to remember only the good things that happened "In the good old days."

Give Quin Snyder the players he wants, as best you can, then give him some time to work with them.  If, at that time, he has a bad record, show him the door.  Right now, he doesn't have the players.  Patience, grasshopper!

[macdaddy]

I think it's a good point.  We should fire Quin.  We should bring back Nate.  

Seriously though, we don't have enough talent.  I'm a broken record but that's the problem with this team.  Is Nate better than Monty Williams too because all of a sudden that guy forgot how to coach.

Nate is a good coach but we were treading water.   He had a whole season as HC and we finished 9th in the east.  

[NBASupes]

Nate doesn't try to fit square pegs in round holes

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I think it's a good point.  We should fire Quin.  We should bring back Nate.  

Seriously though, we don't have enough talent.  I'm a broken record but that's the problem with this team.  Is Nate better than Monty Williams too because all of a sudden that guy forgot how to coach.

Nate is a good coach but we were treading water.   He had a whole season as HC and we finished 9th in the east.  

To your point though.

Did Nate have enough talent?

The only difference from this year to last is we traded JC  for memories and we didn't resign AHoli and JHoli.  We didn't consider any of those guys overwhelming talent.   AND  Nate played half of his last season without Bogi. 

It's hard to see basically the same team from last year on the floor and when talks of evaluation of Quin comes up everybody yells... not enough talent.   So we fired the guy that got us to the ECF because he couldn't win with  NOT ENOUGH TALENT and we're giving the guy behind him a pass?

People talk about player development. ....   AJ hasn't seen the court for meaningful minutes since Nate's been gone. 

People talk about sideline demeanor....   Quin has yet to go Bobby Knight on any official.   I saw Taylor whatshisname in Memphis go Smoove off on a ref... I thought he was going to lay into the ref... and Immediately I had respect for that coach.  Quin is up and down the sideline all game but he needs to go Smoove off on a ref and stop letting his players do it. 

People talk about Xs and Os...  Nate couldn't draw up a sideline play to save his soul.  Quin has him beat there.   But Quin's rigid 8 man rotation sucks.   I know he is using maximized talent but it sucks. And his substitution pattern sucks too. It's too rigid just like Nates.  Quin does have a little more creativity.. but a lot more advanced thinking.  If the advanced thinking offense/defense paid off more.. then there would be no comment but coming out of the half, it feels like every other coach makes the best adjustments.  It's like the ghost of Doc Rivers is coaching the Hawks. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I do believe Nate had to go.  However, I haven't seen a lot from Quin that says that he's head and shoulders above Nate. 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Nate doesn't try to fit square pegs in round holes

He just tells the square pegs to stop shooting so many 3's and to take more midrange jump shots.

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Nate doesn't try to fit square pegs in round holes

This is what we need from Snyder in his first year though.  He's gotta show Landry he needs guys that can produce in his system.  We don't need to tailor our offense to an inherently flawed roster.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Nate doesn't try to fit square pegs in round holes

On a more serious note, if Snyder can't adjust to his personnel and the game flow more than he has shown so far that will prove out to be a serious liability for him.  It is an asset for a coach to be able to make adjustments.

That said, I do think this roster is flawed and am fully giving Snyder more time before I reach any sweeping conclusions on his quality as a coach.  

Nate is a fine coach for the right team and better than that in a different era than today.  I just don't need to see anything more from him to know that he needed to go.  The issues here were the same ones he had in Indy and he is probably at the end of his career so there is no hope of adjustments.  As I've said all along, he is not and was never the only problem on the team.  He just was one problem area that needed to be addressed.  He might have won a few more games YTD but I have zero faith he could get this team to where it needs to be two years from now.  Everything he did with scheme and staff after our ECF reduced my excitement for him and belief in him as the right guy for this job.  But not every failing of the team was his fault.  Great players can cover up coaching sins and bad players can sink even the greatest coach.  We had and still have multiple issues to fix on this team.

I had hoped we would be in a much better place this season before the years started with Trae and DM developing some synergy, Hunter breaking out, JJ breaking out, Kobe being a useful combo guard off the bench....etc. etc.  Much of that just hasn't come to pass and isn't the product of whether we had Nate or Quin in the driver's seat.

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

That said, I do think this roster is flawed

It's interesting.

People say we're flawed.  Yet.. we jump out to these big leads and have these great first halfs of basketball.. Against Everybody except Indiana.   I mean, we beat the best teams to a pulp in the first half. 

Is that a flawed team?

I mean look at this...

 

76-59 in the first half against OKC.   All of our players except Matthes is positive on the +/-.

Where is the flaw?

This isn't just one game.  Every game looks like this.   Then at the half, the adjustment is made...

Is that a flawed Team or a Flawed Scheme?

 

[AHF]

51 minutes ago, Diesel said:

It's interesting.

People say we're flawed.  Yet.. we jump out to these big leads and have these great first halfs of basketball.. Against Everybody except Indiana.   I mean, we beat the best teams to a pulp in the first half. 

Is that a flawed team?

I mean look at this...

 

76-59 in the first half against OKC.   All of our players except Matthes is positive on the +/-.

Where is the flaw?

This isn't just one game.  Every game looks like this.   Then at the half, the adjustment is made...

Is that a flawed Team or a Flawed Scheme?

 

You can make the case for both.  I do think we are flawed, though.  Offensively Trae and DM are both good players and can be productive together but I don't think either makes the other better which is a problem.  I think they are too small on the defensive side of the ball.

Bogi would be an amazing fit with Trae if he was a better defender.  There is offensive synergy there.

Our frontcourt has pieces that are decent but don't mix together well.  We are ultimately too small there and not impactful enough.

Hunter is too often hurt (about half of this season he has either missed or been playing at less than 100% due to injury) and while he hasn't elevated his game he fits reasonably well in his spot.  He is a subpar passer, disrupter and rebounder but a solid to good positional defender and shooter.  He is our only wing defender on the entire team.  Key piece for the current team but not someone with much synergy with the rest of the roster.  (I'm hoping if he stays and we retool that we'll have more defense that can make a bigger impact in tandem.)

Bey is a good but not great piece offensively and a wreck on defense.  He has synergy with a lot of the roster and is a nice impact when deployed correctly but can't really stretch his game to fill in for Hunter when he is out which has led to some ugly minutes as well.  

JJ has it going on.  Again, injuries are a risk with him but other than needing to continue to learn in his first real role this season I've got nothing bad to say.

CC is too limited.  He remains a solid defender in many matchups and a good rebounder but is sometimes too limited to do much positive and his inability to much other than dunk the ball (most of the time) ends up with a great shooting efficiency number but no way to optimize him other than rim running and point blank shots.  

OO is too small in some matchups, struggles with rebounding at times, is limited as a scorer and playmaker, and is too often good but not the great defender that we've seen in flashes.  Valuable piece but maybe best used as a utility big off the bench until he takes the next step.

Bruno has his moments but doesn't have the trust of the coaches so while I like how is willing to set a pick and put a body on a man he isn't even getting 2 minutes per game this year.  Not worth mentioning but I did for North's sake.

The rest of the team is either too raw right now to help on the floor or just hot garbage that you'd prefer not be on the team.

 

Overall, I think that is a flawed roster.  Moreover, its ceiling isn't ultimately high enough.  A true contender needs two or more guys capable of hall of fame level performances or at least multiple All-Stars banding together behind the star.  Trae is the only guy we have like that and he isn't consistent enough to do it on his own.  We don't need to get rid of every piece.  But we do need to shake things up.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

You can make the case for both.  I do think we are flawed, though.  Offensively Trae and DM are both good players and can be productive together but I don't think either makes the other better which is a problem.  I think they are too small on the defensive side of the ball.

Bogi would be an amazing fit with Trae if he was a better defender.  There is offensive synergy there.

Our frontcourt has pieces that are decent but don't mix together well.  We are ultimately too small there and not impactful enough.

Hunter is too often hurt (about half of this season he has either missed or been playing at less than 100% due to injury) and while he hasn't elevated his game he fits reasonably well in his spot.  He is a subpar passer, disrupter and rebounder but a solid to good positional defender and shooter.  He is our only wing defender on the entire team.  Key piece for the current team but not someone with much synergy with the rest of the roster.  (I'm hoping if he stays and we retool that we'll have more defense that can make a bigger impact in tandem.)

Bey is a good but not great piece offensively and a wreck on defense.  He has synergy with a lot of the roster and is a nice impact when deployed correctly but can't really stretch his game to fill in for Hunter when he is out which has led to some ugly minutes as well.  

JJ has it going on.  Again, injuries are a risk with him but other than needing to continue to learn in his first real role this season I've got nothing bad to say.

CC is too limited.  He remains a solid defender in many matchups and a good rebounder but is sometimes too limited to do much positive and his inability to much other than dunk the ball (most of the time) ends up with a great shooting efficiency number but no way to optimize him other than rim running and point blank shots.  

OO is too small in some matchups, struggles with rebounding at times, is limited as a scorer and playmaker, and is too often good but not the great defender that we've seen in flashes.  Valuable piece but maybe best used as a utility big off the bench until he takes the next step.

Bruno has his moments but doesn't have the trust of the coaches so while I like how is willing to set a pick and put a body on a man he isn't even getting 2 minutes per game this year.  Not worth mentioning but I did for North's sake.

The rest of the team is either too raw right now to help on the floor or just hot garbage that you'd prefer not be on the team.

 

Overall, I think that is a flawed roster.  Moreover, its ceiling isn't ultimately high enough.  A true contender needs two or more guys capable of hall of fame level performances or at least multiple All-Stars banding together behind the star.  Trae is the only guy we have like that and he isn't consistent enough to do it on his own.  We don't need to get rid of every piece.  But we do need to shake things up.

As you have described it...  This is how I interpret:

Trae = Keep.  He's who we should build around. 

DJ = Keep until you have to trade.   He's good but not great and synergy is more than about 2 players.  I have seen two smaller guards work but the frontcourt has to be strong.   I think a better defensive front court would make DJ better on defense.   He's a gambler. 

Bogi = Keep unless you have a good trade.   Points off the bench and synergy is never a bad thing. 

Dre = Move on.  You can't count on somebody who is often injured.  Ask Toronto about Marcus Camby. 

Bey = Move on .  We got one guy off the bench who is a wreck.  Don't need two. 

JJ = Keep.  

CC= Keep until you have to trade. You said he was "too" limited but we don't expect him to be Embiid.  Raise your hands if you want your center to be a Playmaker?  Raise your hands if you want him to be able to step out and hit a three pointer?  You guys would send Dikembe Mutombo in his prime away if that's how you feel. 

OO = Move on.   Not even the Jack of all trades.   OO has value.  Is on a value contract.   In the summer, I would test the waters with him because he's not a starting Center and he's not a starting PF. 

Bruno = Play the man.   He doesn't make enough to trade.  So he has no trade value.   His only value is if he can get some court time and prove himself.   Should have done so with Houston but he did not. 

There's a little interplay with Bogi and Bey.  i.e. if a good deal does come along for Bogi... then Trade Bogi and keep Bey. 

 

[macdaddy]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

To your point though.

Did Nate have enough talent?

The only difference from this year to last is we traded JC  for memories and we didn't resign AHoli and JHoli.  We didn't consider any of those guys overwhelming talent.   AND  Nate played half of his last season without Bogi. 

It's hard to see basically the same team from last year on the floor and when talks of evaluation of Quin comes up everybody yells... not enough talent.   So we fired the guy that got us to the ECF because he couldn't win with  NOT ENOUGH TALENT and we're giving the guy behind him a pass?

People talk about player development. ....   AJ hasn't seen the court for meaningful minutes since Nate's been gone. 

People talk about sideline demeanor....   Quin has yet to go Bobby Knight on any official.   I saw Taylor whatshisname in Memphis go Smoove off on a ref... I thought he was going to lay into the ref... and Immediately I had respect for that coach.  Quin is up and down the sideline all game but he needs to go Smoove off on a ref and stop letting his players do it. 

People talk about Xs and Os...  Nate couldn't draw up a sideline play to save his soul.  Quin has him beat there.   But Quin's rigid 8 man rotation sucks.   I know he is using maximized talent but it sucks. And his substitution pattern sucks too. It's too rigid just like Nates.  Quin does have a little more creativity.. but a lot more advanced thinking.  If the advanced thinking offense/defense paid off more.. then there would be no comment but coming out of the half, it feels like every other coach makes the best adjustments.  It's like the ghost of Doc Rivers is coaching the Hawks. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I do believe Nate had to go.  However, I haven't seen a lot from Quin that says that he's head and shoulders above Nate. 

 

First point

Nate had JC last year.  This year we missed JC, or any competent PF, and JJ.  Having no real PF able to play is a killer problem when your other 2 bigs can only score on putbacks.

AJ has made it clear that the problem isn't with Quin.  AJ wasn't mentally ready to go this year.  You can't put that on Quin

You haven't seen Quin go crazy on refs?  I thought you watch all the games.   I've seen it.  I've also seen him talking to refs all game long and more importantly talking to the players all game long.  when did you ever see Nate talk to a player that was coming off the floor?

Yeah Nate could have done better with more talent.  No question.  That doesn't mean he was a good solution.  2 years ago he took the same team that went to the ECF to the 9th seed.  We blamed injuries and covid.  but in the time he was here he didn't generate confidence that he would be the guy we needed long term.