The Most Important Offseason in Recent Hawks History

[REHawksFan]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

That could have been true, the malcontent part is massively false

Yeah....there's a MASSIVE difference between wanting to be traded and being a malcontent.  Massive difference. 

[AHF]

One thing that is not helpful to getting good value in a trade is publicly admitting that your best players aren't working together.  Just food for thought for Landry as he thinks about how to get teams to give good value in return.  You at least need the other team thinking your players are great.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 minutes ago, Afro said:

Not sure if serious or not? I'm not arguing against the actual reality of that statement, but there was definitely "DJ wants out" floating all through the media at the deadline. 

Our own @Mikey  suggested he asked for a trade.

[Afro]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

That could have been true, the malcontent part is massively false

It doesn't really matter for what we're talking about? I'm not sure what your point is lol. 

All the reports of "DJ WANTS OUT" around the deadline also screwed up the compensation. That's the point. 

[Afro]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Our own @Mikey  suggested he asked for a trade.

And there was the instagram/twitter/whatever DMs where he was NOT happy. 

I'm not saying any of it was real. All I said was it didn't help anything and Landry did absolutely nothing to tone down that narrative. 

 

Y'all got me over here wondering if Im the only one that remembered that happened lol

Edited April 18 by Afro

[KB21]

When is the last time you saw two NBA teams make a trade where both teams got better?  Our issue is that every trade proposal we had was one where the other team approached the trade like we were rebuilding.  

[REHawksFan]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

One thing that is not helpful to getting good value in a trade is publicly admitting that your best players aren't working together.  Just food for thought for Landry as he thinks about how to get teams to give good value in return.  You at least need the other team thinking your players are great.

I agree with you in principle, but it sure seems like that ship has sailed.  Everyone around the league knows it doesn't work.  They have eyes just like the rest of us.  I think the best we can all hope for is that the Hawks FO can convince teams that there are multiple teams interested in them and maybe that they are crazy enough to run it back if they don't get offers they like, although I'm not sure anyone would believe them.  

[JayBirdHawk]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

When is the last time you saw two NBA teams make a trade where both teams got better?  Our issue is that every trade proposal we had was one where the other team approached the trade like we were rebuilding.  

Kings and Pacers.

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Now that we have officially ended the season, it is time for Landry to roll up his sleeves because we have major decisions to be made this offseason that will likely set our path for the next 5 years.  

Key Decisions:

(1) Tear down, WLOC, or retool?

1. Tear down is the easiest for me to assess as a terrible and unlikely idea.  If we went this direction, we would be trading players to get picks to rebuild.  I don't think this even works theoretically unless you can get our picks back from SA so this probably involves a trade with SA centered around Trae and/or DJM.  I think this is highly unlikely but would clearly put us on a very different path.
2. WLOC is a very possible path (distressingly likely is another way I might put it).  It involves essentially bringing the band back next year and hoping for development and additions through the draft and FA.  This is the default path so even if we want to retool or want to tear down, if we can't make the deals needed to move onto those paths we will end up in WLOC by default.  WLOC means dealing with serious payroll challenges and basically praying for an injury prone group to have an unprecedented run of good health and perform for a full season the way we did when fully healthy this year.  Granted we were better when fully healthy but even then we weren't great.  This path for me would not offer a lot of optimism.  I would be hoping for Kobe, Gueye, and our 2024 picks to come on ala JJ and that Quin's system would elevate the team over time.  
3. Retool is the path I really want to see.  For me this starts with dealing either Trae or DJM for better fitting talent because I don't think they work together and both should have strong trade value.  Obviously DJM didn't command a worthwhile return at the deadline but I think his second half play should enhance his value as well as teams recognizing how nice his contract looks compared to someone like FVV so I don't rule out the possibility of getting a worthwhile return for either of them.  I do accept that it is much more likely that we won't get back someone with more talent given the lengths to which our front office has undermined our negotiating position with dump deals in recent years (the refusal to trade DJM for a pick and role player dump package is a good thing in this regard). 
   1. I will note that retooling goes beyond just Trae / DJM.  We need to pick a lane at center.  CC's performance is declining over time and OO has not stepped up yet.  I also question whether the team can truly go with Quin-ball while CC is our starting center (and it speaks volumes that Quin didn't start OO this year).  While both remain very useful pieces, I don't think rolling it back at the center spot makes a ton of sense.  At a minimum, adding a developmental big who could step into that mix in the next couple years is needed.  
   2. Given that we don't control our pick for the next 3 years, getting a retool right is essential.  We swing and miss big on a deal and then expect to do what we all want to do. 
   3. I think retooling also makes a ton of sense since we don't have those picks.  If we screw up the the retool, it will slide into a rebuild as our picks come back.  But the way to actually become contenders is to get it right.

It feels to me like all roads lead to a tear down if Landry doesn't get things right the next few years and especially this offseason.  WLOC sounds like a diminishing returns strategy to me which will lead to frustration from our best players and increase the likelihood they will leave while SA owns us.  A failed retool seems like it leads the same direction.  But a well executed retool could propel us into the best shape we've been in for as long as I can remember with the best case scenarios resembling the 60 win Hawks of Bud's peak but with more roster stability.

Landry is going to chart this course and I feel like it is going to be hugely significant to the state of the Hawks for the next 5 years and maybe longer.  This is an inflection point for the franchise.  Fingers are crossed over here.

 

I think Landry would already be without a job on most teams.  His trades have have set a precedent in the league.  It has  led the league to think we will accept bad contracts and 2nd rounders for good players. 

I must admit  that I was disappointed with Quin Snyder's coaching.  When we signed him I was thrilled.  However, his inflexibility in his rotations is just like Nate.  He takes the hot man out strictly for rotation reasons.  You have got to go with the players who are playing well. I had also thought he would be a better defensive coach that he has turned out to be.  However, we have locked him into a long term contract at $8 million a year, so I don't see our cheapie owners paying his salary along with another coach.  

I don't see how we can get out of this mess after Landry gave away so many picks to get Murray, but wasn't astute enough to recognize we didn't need 2 point guards on the floor at the same time.

I know that I will get trashed for saying this, but I believe Murray is more team oriented, and we seem to win more games when plays at the point, rather than Trae.  I have softened my dislike for Trae, because I realize he is a phenomenal passer.  I just think his high salary keeps us from adding more quality players.  I really don't believe there are any superstars out there who would willingly come to the Hawks, because our ownership has fostered a reputation of caring more about putting people in the seats, and buying jerseys, shoes and trinkets in the team store.  That seems to be paramount with Ressler, and wins are a secondary (or perhaps lower) consideration in his mind.  He says repeatedly that he will pay the luxury tax to get a championship, but has never taken any steps to make it happen. 

I was relieved when we didn't trade away even more of our future to get Siakim, and face the distinct possibility that all the players we traded would have been for nothing, as he would not re-sign with us.

I am hopeful that our shortcomings will turn around, but it is hard to see any changes coming in the near future.

 

 

[Afro]

12 minutes ago, KB21 said:

When is the last time you saw two NBA teams make a trade where both teams got better?  Our issue is that every trade proposal we had was one where the other team approached the trade like we were rebuilding.  

Landry has done nothing to dispel that and in my eyes, his post deadline comments only hurt our standing even further. 

He seems way too honest for his own good. 

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I agree with you in principle, but it sure seems like that ship has sailed.  Everyone around the league knows it doesn't work.  They have eyes just like the rest of us.  I think the best we can all hope for is that the Hawks FO can convince teams that there are multiple teams interested in them and maybe that they are crazy enough to run it back if they don't get offers they like, although I'm not sure anyone would believe them.  

Name the last time you saw a good GM make a public statement like this.  I don't think I've seen it three times in my life.  It is obviously a terrible idea and signals that you probably don't know how deals get made and how leverage works.  It is the same reason that teams plant rumors in the press all the time about players they want, during the draft, etc.  Everyone in the league has eyes but what is said in the press actually influences how deals come together, when players gets drafted, etc.  It doesn't affect every GM every time but there is an obvious reasons teams keep doing this.  It is why we see rumors of DJM and Trae wanting out of Atlanta, etc.  True or not, those rumors hurt our leverage.  And our GM doing this was a self-inflicted wound and actually hurts more than a random stupid rumor because our GM of all people is on camera saying it.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, Watchman said:

I just think his high salary keeps us from adding more quality players. 

I disagree, we are not limited by Trae's salary.  We are limited by the owner's perceived hard salary cap. 

Look at the other teams still currently playing - more that 1 max player, but they continually add quality talented players. We barrel scrape.

[Afro]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Name the last time you saw a good GM make a public statement like this.  I don't think I've seen it three times in my life.  It is obviously a terrible idea and signals that you probably don't know how deals get made and how leverage works.  It is the same reason that teams plant rumors in the press all the time about players they want, during the draft, etc.  Everyone in the league has eyes but what is said in the press actually influences how deals come together, when players gets drafted, etc.  It doesn't affect every GM every time but there is an obvious reasons teams keep doing this.  It is why we see rumors of DJM and Trae wanting out of Atlanta, etc.  True or not, those rumors hurt our leverage.  And our GM doing this was a self-inflicted wound and actually hurts more than a random stupid rumor because our GM of all people is on camera saying it.

"We absolutely think Trae and DJ pair well together. The rest of our roster might need some retooling to maximize the pairing to its full extent, but that is work we are certainly willing to do and look forward to continuing our efforts to build a championship roster this offseason"

 

How damn hard is that? 

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, Afro said:

"We absolutely think Trae and DJ pair well together. The rest of our roster might need some retooling to maximize the pairing to its full extent, but that is work we are certainly willing to do and look forward to continuing our efforts to build a championship roster this offseason"

 

How damn hard is that? 

Or simply:  It's a work in progress under Quin's new scheme and both guys and Quin are committed to get it to work.

Like you said - NOT HARD.   No matter what the data, the pundits, the talking heads, the squawk says....he DOES NOT GET TO SAY IT!

[REHawksFan]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

Name the last time you saw a good GM make a public statement like this.  I don't think I've seen it three times in my life.  It is obviously a terrible idea and signals that you probably don't know how deals get made and how leverage works.  It is the same reason that teams plant rumors in the press all the time about players they want, during the draft, etc.  Everyone in the league has eyes but what is said in the press actually influences how deals come together, when players gets drafted, etc.  It doesn't affect every GM every time but there is an obvious reasons teams keep doing this.  It is why we see rumors of DJM and Trae wanting out of Atlanta, etc.  True or not, those rumors hurt our leverage.  And our GM doing this was a self-inflicted wound and actually hurts more than a random stupid rumor because our GM of all people is on camera saying it.

Like I said, I don't disagree with you (unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying).  I'm just saying I don't think Landry coming out and claiming that the two guys can work together will fool anyone.  At least not to the point where it would outweigh a bidding war with multiple teams.  

[RedDawg#8]

Sports talk radio was discussing the idea that it might be best to trade BOTH of Trae and DJ and just start a rebuild centered around JJ moving forward.

I do not hate this. I also think it may make sense to keep DJ since his contract is such a value deal.

Either way, we need to revisit this entire situation. We are too guard heavy and dependent on making tough outside shots. We need to get rid of ball dominant players who aren’t effective driving the basketball or posting up.

Our best basketball came when our role players got the most minutes. We need more of that. Guys who can star in their role. 

[theheroatl]

2 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Sports talk radio was discussing the idea that it might be best to trade BOTH of Trae and DJ and just start a rebuild centered around JJ moving forward.

I do not hate this. I also think it may make sense to keep DJ since his contract is such a value deal.

Either way, we need to revisit this entire situation. We are too guard heavy and dependent on making tough outside shots. We need to get rid of ball dominant players who aren’t effective driving the basketball or posting up.

Our best basketball came when our role players got the most minutes. We need more of that. Guys who can star in their role. 

JJ is not a superstar to build around...... yet.

99.9% of sports talk radio personalities are ridiculously biased towards hot takes and don't take in consideration actual statistics.

IMO, you need to start swapping the other pieces besides JJ, Trae, and DJM before you talk about rebuilding.

 

Capela, Bogi, Bey, Dre, OO... they all suck and need to go

[AHF]

16 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Like I said, I don't disagree with you (unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying).  I'm just saying I don't think Landry coming out and claiming that the two guys can work together will fool anyone.  At least not to the point where it would outweigh a bidding war with multiple teams.  

My issue is that it actively undermines us in negotiations.  He might not fool anyone but he could at least convince someone else that we are unreasonably attached to our player.  Toronto obviously had to move Siakam but their GM never hinted that there was any performance issue with him.  They just held out until they got a good offer and kept insisting they would happily keep him.

[Afro]

Just now, theheroatl said:

JJ is not a superstar to build around...... yet.

99.9% of sports talk radio personalities are ridiculously biased towards hot takes and don't take in consideration actual statistics.

IMO, you need to start swapping the other pieces besides JJ, Trae, and DJM before you talk about rebuilding.

 

Capela, Bogi, Bey, Dre, OO... they all suck and need to go

Yeah the only way this makes any sense is if you get a star in return. 

JJ is great, but he is not close to being "the" guy. 

[theheroatl]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

My issue is that it actively undermines us in negotiations.  He might not fool anyone but he could at least convince someone else that we are unreasonably attached to our player.  Toronto obviously had to move Siakam but their GM never hinted that there was any performance issue with him.  They just held out until they got a good offer and kept insisting they would happily keep him.

Landry showed his severe lack of experience with that presser.

It was appalling to see him talk like that.

I think it really took my opinion of him from good (DJM resigning) to bad.