TRAE OR DJ OR BOTH

[Spud2nique]

I’d like to find fair deals for DJ, Cap and Hunter, that would be the dream for me. Being able to ship out those 3 for 1-5 quality players and just reTOOL around Trae, JJ and OO. BUT, if OO nets a positive return, he is on the table as well.

 

I’d like to find fair deals for DJ, Cap and Hunter, that would be the dream for me. Being able to ship out those 3 for 1-5 quality players and just reTOOL around Trae, JJ and OO. BUT, if OO nets a positive return, he is on the table as well.

 

[JeffS17]

6 hours ago, macdaddy said:

he last three years and several we could have as easily acquired as the team that ultimately did.

You're missing his point though -- we literally could not easily acquire them because we screwed up our extensions devaluing our players.

 

3 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Quickley?  You don't think they would rather have Murray.  He was already on the block when this trade went down.   Murray + Bey/AJ or heck maybe even Hunter but not sure it would be necessary + a 2nd.   That beats Quickley+RJ doesn't it.  

OGs agent is the Knicks presidents son.  He was never going to go anywhere else because he would have been a one year rental.  If we had conversations with him/his agent and OG would have been willing to extend in Atlanta, we would have seen more noise about us getting into the mix.

12 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I’d like to find fair deals for DJ, Cap and Hunter, that would be the dream for me. Being able to ship out those 3 for 1-5 quality players and just reTOOL around Trae, JJ and OO. BUT, if OO nets a positive return, he is on the table as well.

 

I’d like to find fair deals for DJ, Cap and Hunter, that would be the dream for me. Being able to ship out those 3 for 1-5 quality players and just reTOOL around Trae, JJ and OO. BUT, if OO nets a positive return, he is on the table as well.

 

Tbh I want an unfair deal for Capela lol fair deal is going to be getting some unplayable bench guys in return

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

A trade involving Murray isn't the key for us to improve, because we're still keeping the same guys that we grossly overpaid for.  Some of those guys have declined, while others haven't improved.

• Capela - declined
• Bogi - stagnant
• Hunter - slightly improved offensively, stagnant overall

That's the core players that should've been involved in deals that bought us back better fitting pieces, while keep our top level guys intact.  But now, we're talking about switching out one of our top 2 guys, but keeping the "Mediocre 3" in place for another season?

Murray, at minimum, is a borderline All-Star talent.   If you trade him for a better defensive option at the 2, you're still asking Trae to do a hell of a lot on offense.  If you trade him for role players + picks, that's a signal to Trae that we're not about winning, and you may lose him too.

When talking about winning teams in the playoffs, you need

• at least 2 All-Star caliber players who can get you a bucket.  Preferably with one of those All-Stars playing at MVP level
• a 3rd guy who can get you a bucket or knock down critical shot
• a frontline who can defend at a high level
• random role players who can make key offensive or defensive plays in the middle of game.

I agree with a lot of what you say.  The reason I think Murray is the key trade is because he has the highest value.  But trading Murray and keeping the other guys is not what I had in mind.

Bogi is tradeable, but I think they might want to keep him as one of the top bench gunners in the league.  If they do trade him, it will be for a similar useful role player that could start if needed.  

Hunter and Capela can be moved but only in a JC type of transaction.  But I agree we can’t start both of them next year.  I see at least one gone, most likely Capela.  

Murray ideally gets us a borderline all star, like Ingram.  Just have to see if another option besides Ingram emerges.  I do think the fit is not there with Murray and Trae. 

You make a good point I’ve been thinking about.  We can’t win with Trae and a cast of role players.  

[Spud2nique]

I’d like to find fair deals for DJ, Cap and Hunter, that would be the dream for me. Being able to ship out those 3 for 1-5 quality players and just reTOOL around Trae, JJ and OO. BUT, if OO nets a positive return, he is on the table as well.

Uhhhh my broke  

Edited May 10 by Spud2nique

[AHF]

15 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Hunter and Capela can be moved but only in a JC type of transaction.  But I agree we can’t start both of them next year.  I see at least one gone, most likely Capela.  

Hunter I think can get a much better return than JC given the desperation for 3&D wings around the league.

Capela I think could also get more value than JC did as long as we are actually willing to take back salary in return.

[macdaddy]

16 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

You're missing his point though -- we literally could not easily acquire them because we screwed up our extensions devaluing our players.

Maybe i'm missing the point but maybe not.  As i pointed out we could have easily acquired OG, i understand that maybe he was refusing to come here, but there was no cap/financial reason we couldn't have done that deal.  

Spurs traded White for one first and a pick swap.  This was before we acquired DJ.  We very easily could have done that deal.  

[mountainjim]

Every time I see White play I think - damn, why did we not trade for him?  Some here were calling for it, I recall.

Every time until last night, anyways. 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

15 hours ago, Final_quest said:

You make a good point I’ve been thinking about.  We can’t win with Trae and a cast of role players.  

The fact that we almost did once, was incredible.  But like I said, vets like Gallo and Lou Will came up huge in some of those playoff games.  And they were the right type of vets with the right type of skill sets, to help us in those situations.

Trading DJ for lesser role players and picks, means that Trae will either get doubled at the end of games and have to give the ball up to whomever is open, or he may feel that he must take all the shots down the stretch every single time.  Some of you may like the first option.  But we need a mix of both.   

Who is the 2nd scoring option if we trade DJ?  A lot of people want JJ to be that guy, but he may not ready to be that guy.  Hell, he may NEVER be that guy.

And as big of a Trae fan I am, I can also fully admit that DJ is a better closer than Trae . . . IF . . . he can get to his spot in the midrange. And Trae has willingly let DJ close out games, when he has the advantage.

Without Trae here, it'll be DJ that gets doubled, and someone else would have to make critical shots.  Bogi can do it, but he's either red hot or ice cold.  Hunter tends not to be clutch in the closing minutes of games, although I think he hit a clutch shot this year ( Boston game? )

I don't think people are serious about building a winner here, if we also don't have a 2nd option player who can completely ball out more times than not.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The fact that we almost did once, was incredible.  But like I said, vets like Gallo and Lou Will came up huge in some of those playoff games.  And they were the right type of vets with the right type of skill sets, to help us in those situations.

Trading DJ for lesser role players and picks, means that Trae will either get doubled at the end of games and have to give the ball up to whomever is open, or he may feel that he must take all the shots down the stretch every single time.  Some of you may like the first option.  But we need a mix of both.   

Who is the 2nd scoring option if we trade DJ?  A lot of people want JJ to be that guy, but he may not ready to be that guy.  Hell, he may NEVER be that guy.

And as big of a Trae fan I am, I can also fully admit that DJ is a better closer than Trae . . . IF . . . he can get to his spot in the midrange. And Trae has willingly let DJ close out games, when he has the advantage.

Without Trae here, it'll be DJ that gets doubled, and someone else would have to make critical shots.  Bogi can do it, but he's either red hot or ice cold.  Hunter tends not to be clutch in the closing minutes of games, although I think he hit a clutch shot this year ( Boston game? )

I don't think people are serious about building a winner here, if we also don't have a 2nd option player who can completely ball out more times than not.

JJ definitely ain't that guy. He not a half court offensive scorer at all. He's an open court stud who can do a nice job on cuts and PnR finishing. 

[NBASupes]

Right now, we likely have Trae, Bogi, BI, and JJ. Draft Edey and that fixes most of our troubles. Sure, defense will take some time but we should focus on a world class offense that can score 3 levels like we did when we bad Kevin with Bogi and one that can score easy buckets which we have never had in Atlanta. Only St. Louis with Pettit

[macdaddy]

14 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I don't think people are serious about building a winner here, if we also don't have a 2nd option player who can completely ball out more times than not.

That seems like an argument for Ingram.  DJ can do that but unless we make him a very expensive 6th man then we know that Trae/DJ isn't an effective backcourt.  I wish Middleton wasn't on the decline.  

[JeffS17]

35 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

but there was no cap/financial reason we couldn't have done that deal.  

Yes, and we can go and trade Capela/Hunter for Nikola Jokic too, since there's no cap or financial reason that deal can't be done. 

OR, we can just sign and trade for OG this offseason since he will be an unrestricted free agent, if he wants to be in Atlanta.  OG is still on the table if we're just talking about what is possible.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, JeffS17 said:

Yes, and we can go and trade Capela/Hunter for Nikola Jokic too, since there's no cap or financial reason that deal can't be done. 

OR, we can just sign and trade for OG this offseason since he will be an unrestricted free agent, if he wants to be in Atlanta.  OG is still on the table if we're just talking about what is possible.

Obviously, the odds of retaining a free agent are much better than getting him to force a sign and trade.  If we wanted to go for him, now would not make sense unless NY isn't willing to pay him.  As you point out, him not wanting to play in Atlanta could have been the reason we didn't trade for him in the first place which would also be why he isn't on the table now in any practical sense.

[macdaddy]

11 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Yes, and we can go and trade Capela/Hunter for Nikola Jokic too, since there's no cap or financial reason that deal can't be done. 

OR, we can just sign and trade for OG this offseason since he will be an unrestricted free agent, if he wants to be in Atlanta.  OG is still on the table if we're just talking about what is possible.

I'm addressing the often thrown out argument that there was no way we could have acquired these players because of our contract mismanagement.   These were guys who were moved to our rivals that we could have easily worked deals for despite our supposed financial constraints.  These are real deals that would have been equal or better than what the teams actually got for these players.  

 

[Final_quest]

13 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm addressing the often thrown out argument that there was no way we could have acquired these players because of our contract mismanagement.   These were guys who were moved to our rivals that we could have easily worked deals for despite our supposed financial constraints.  These are real deals that would have been equal or better than what the teams actually got for these players.  

 

I’m not saying there’s no way to acquire players, but we’re a lot more limited.  To the best of my knowledge we didn’t hear a rumor that OG for Murray was on the table.  At the time Murray was looking pretty inefficient, could be Toronto had no interest in him.

I think the entire league wishes they traded for Derrick White.  But we can also fantasize about dream scenarios of drafting major contributors with late first round picks and 2nd rounders.    

I will say easy is the wrong word to use when talking about options to amend our roster after we spent on guys like JC, Clint, and Hunter who all had long contracts.  Then we used the draft capital on Murray.  Nothing has been easy after that.  Possible to make some very impactful moves, but not easy.  
 
Our FO definitely missed on opportunities.  JC for Markannen and picks! They are on the clock to right the ship.  

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The fact that we almost did once, was incredible.  But like I said, vets like Gallo and Lou Will came up huge in some of those playoff games.  And they were the right type of vets with the right type of skill sets.

Said on Brad Rowland’s pod by Glen Willis, Hawks went from 2nd on spot up efficiency in 2020-2021 to 29th in 2021-2022.  They had the offense humming and that probably boosted the defense quite a bit.  You make your shots and set your defense.  

Remember when Nate brought in his offensive scheme after the ECF?  Oops.  

Trae had healthy Clint for PnR, and could kick out to Bogi, Gallo, and Huerter.  Three volume shooters.  JC was 38% or more as well.  

I still believe Trae can turn this around with the right guys.  

[AHF]

45 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I think the entire league wishes they traded for Derrick White.  But we can also fantasize about dream scenarios of drafting major contributors with late first round picks and 2nd rounders.    

Since we had multiple posters advocating that we make a move for White at the time, I'd say this is less analogous to a 2nd rounder breaking out where all 30 teams failed to see his upside when they were picking in the first round and maybe more akin to a poster saying "I said we needed to draft Haliburton at 6!" when at the time of the draft they were saying we needed to draft Haliburton.  If someone is advocating for the move and the move doesn't cost that much, it isn't unfair to look back on our lack of interest as a mistake than if White had truly come out of nowhere.

[theheroatl]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Right now, we likely have Trae, Bogi, BI, and JJ. Draft Edey and that fixes most of our troubles. Sure, defense will take some time but we should focus on a world class offense that can score 3 levels like we did when we bad Kevin with Bogi and one that can score easy buckets which we have never had in Atlanta. Only St. Louis with Pettit

If we are smart we do the complete opposite of this, except keep Trae.

 

We need Trae, JJ, Risacher, Kobe Bufkin… and a butt load of defenders

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Since we had multiple posters advocating that we make a move for White at the time, I'd say this is less analogous to a 2nd rounder breaking out where all 30 teams failed to see his upside when they were picking in the first round and maybe more akin to a poster saying "I said we needed to draft Haliburton at 6!" when at the time of the draft they were saying we needed to draft Haliburton.  If someone is advocating for the move and the move doesn't cost that much, it isn't unfair to look back on our lack of interest as a mistake than if White had truly come out of nowhere.

Again my analogy is every draft is perfect if you get the benefit of hindsight.  That Derrick White trade was a top 10 trade of the past five years.  Every GM is a genius if they get to look back and make all the right moves.  

Still none of that has anything to do with the notion that it's easy to reset your roster after you've spent up to the luxury line and you're a .500 team.  Saying we should have traded for Derrick White two years ago somehow means any team can easily get out of that situation?  It's not even related to the problem. 

Similarly many said we should have not signed Collins or Hunter, but I'm talking about how to make a shift after we did sign those players and trade for Murray.  If we traded for White instead of Murray, we're in a completely different situation.  

[AHF]

34 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Again my analogy is every draft is perfect if you get the benefit of hindsight.  That Derrick White trade was a top 10 trade of the past five years.  Every GM is a genius if they get to look back and make all the right moves. 

The analogy doesn't apply to people like @JayBirdHawk because they were advocating the Hawks acquire White before Boston did.  That is is the opposite of hindsight.

Quote

 Still none of that has anything to do with the notion that it's easy to reset your roster after you've spent up to the luxury line and you're a .500 team.  Saying we should have traded for Derrick White two years ago somehow means any team can easily get out of that situation?  It's not even related to the problem. 

Yeah, not sure why you are connecting those other than to point out that our failure to make that move combined with the overpays we did with out own free agents put us in the position where we have fewer draft assets, a roster with some ill fitting pieces, and an undesirable payroll situation with players like CC, JC, Hunter, etc.

Quote

Similarly many said we should have not signed Collins or Hunter, but I'm talking about how to make a shift after we did sign those players and trade for Murray.  If we traded for White instead of Murray, we're in a completely different situation.  

Right.  I think the conversation about where we go from here has nothing to do with JC or White.  Those are looking back to see how we got into our current situation.  Where we go from here has to do with conversations like should we want to trade for Ingram given his game and pending contract situation (and if so what is the right price); who should we take in the draft and how should that pick affect the rest of the roster; under what conditions should we resign Bey; should we trade CC, Hunter, Bogi, DJM, Trae, etc. and what should such a trade look like, etc.