TRAE OR DJ OR BOTH

[capstone21]

You need two way players … adding someone like Vessel from SA who can score and defend at SG.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

The problem is that Trae + Bogi or DJM + Bogi is better than Trae + DJM.  There is no problem with talent.  The problem is fit.  That is too expensive of a pairing to fit that poorly.  Better to start Bogi and trade one to upgrade the frontcourt.  

I know that the stats suggests that.. but a deeper look reveals more than meets the eye.   A bigger problem with that thinking is that Bogi is the worse defender on the team.   But back to the main problem here.

The main problem here is that our scoring is derived from the PG position.  Period.   When Trae is PG... scoring comes from the PG position.   When Murray is PG... scoring comes from the PG position.   Bogi is just better at SG than Murray because he's had 3 years of practice while playing with Trae.   Before you jump in... think about it.   When Murray was the PG... when there wasn't a scoring drought, Murray was expected to initiate all the scoring.  Most of the time, he found his midrange punch.  He played the role that Trae Plays when he's the PG.  That's all.   So people are all abuzz because Murray can put up comparable numbers to Trae...  That's because he was wearing Trae's shoes...  (there's something about the quality of the competition that goes here too, but that's another topic). 

Quin has not solved anything.   He has us playing faster and from time to time we will run the break... but the frontcourt is flawed and we still haven't inspired anybody else to be the offensive initiator.  JJ stays too hurt. 

[Diesel]

59 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Trae will never be flawless on offense...His decision making has always been questionable (note the turnovers) and will never be a good enough shooter.

I see it differently.   Make Trae less responsible on offense and he becomes more flawless.  We need a better frontline and we need to consider becoming a "running" team.  We have been buttoned down as a halfcourt team and we're too flawed for that. 

[NBASupes]

40 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I see it differently.   Make Trae less responsible on offense and he becomes more flawless.  We need a better frontline and we need to consider becoming a "running" team.  We have been buttoned down as a halfcourt team and we're too flawed for that. 

I disagree. We had our best success under Nate as a half court offense the year we finished 2nd in OffRtg. We scored from all three levels better than anyone. The issue was, we went through lulls like we do now but even worse, Nate offense is so predictable that every 4th quarter, everyone knew how to adjust and shut us down. 

I don't believe we can be an uptempo team. I believe are best in the half court but we gotta do better at the 5 spot. JC kinda helped CC till his finger got jacked. JJ while he's an open court menace. He leaves a lot to be desired in the half court if he's not on the ball or in live actions. JC was really good off the ball. He made life easier for Trae as well as CC. We kinda miss JC, pre jacked finger JC, I mean. 

I just don't believe Quin has the personnel and we did have the personnel a couple of years ago. But CC got old. Gallo got old and is gone. Delon gone. Lou got really old and is gone. Kevin gone. JC gone. We just lost a lot of talent and really didn't replace it outside of JJ. 

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I disagree. We had our best success under Nate as a half court offense the year we finished 2nd in OffRtg. We scored from all three levels better than anyone. The issue was, we went through lulls like we do now but even worse, Nate offense is so predictable that every 4th quarter, everyone knew how to adjust and shut us down. 

I don't believe we can be an uptempo team. I believe are best in the half court but we gotta do better at the 5 spot. JC kinda helped CC till his finger got jacked. JJ while he's an open court menace. He leaves a lot to be desired in the half court if he's not on the ball or in live actions. JC was really good off the ball. He made life easier for Trae as well as CC. We kinda miss JC, pre jacked finger JC, I mean. 

I just don't believe Quin has the personnel and we did have the personnel a couple of years ago. But CC got old. Gallo got old and is gone. Delon gone. Lou got really old and is gone. Kevin gone. JC gone. We just lost a lot of talent and really didn't replace it outside of JJ. 

 

I don't disagree about the Nate offense... but the Nate offense was predictable and defendable.   It was more suited for the playoffs but it wasn't a challenge for playoff teams.  Uptempo is what we should be headed towards and some of our personnel will have to change.    There are two identities that we can seek:

1.  Half court team.  It requires better shooters and rebounders around Trae. 

2.  Uptempo team.  It requires better athletes  and better defenders. 

In each instance, our Frontcourt has to become better.   More physical and bigger.   The question is can we find shooters to be the halfcourt team.  Well, you can trade Dj for Delo... and be halfway there.   However, I don't see that making us better.   Moreover, a guy like JJ will die trying to find his place with the ball. 

I can easily see us moving forward with JJ and Vit and some bigs who can run and defend and us being a whole lot better and less predictable. 

 

[NBASupes]

51 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

I don't disagree about the Nate offense... but the Nate offense was predictable and defendable.   It was more suited for the playoffs but it wasn't a challenge for playoff teams.  Uptempo is what we should be headed towards and some of our personnel will have to change.    There are two identities that we can seek:

1.  Half court team.  It requires better shooters and rebounders around Trae. 

2.  Uptempo team.  It requires better athletes  and better defenders. 

In each instance, our Frontcourt has to become better.   More physical and bigger.   The question is can we find shooters to be the halfcourt team.  Well, you can trade Dj for Delo... and be halfway there.   However, I don't see that making us better.   Moreover, a guy like JJ will die trying to find his place with the ball. 

I can easily see us moving forward with JJ and Vit and some bigs who can run and defend and us being a whole lot better and less predictable. 

 

Trae is a poor floor general. It's always hard to play the PHX style when you aren't a good floor general. 

Trae is the ultimate playmaker who likes to have a pulse on everything. Uptempo ain't good for Trae 

[JTB]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

The problem is that Trae + Bogi or DJM + Bogi is better than Trae + DJM.  There is no problem with talent.  The problem is fit.  That is too expensive of a pairing to fit that poorly.  Better to start Bogi and trade one to upgrade the frontcourt.  

Serious question here.

our we really in cap hell because of these 3 ?

Something just don’t seem right when we are discussing getting better as a whole. Always seems like the hawks can’t keep talent to get better as if it’s abnormal these 3 guys are getting paid the salaries they have. If anything DJ took a pay cut for us. Are we doing anything with DJs humbling negotiation is my question 

 

most hawk fans should agree that  Trae , DJ, Bogi , or JJ shouldn’t be the talent we trade to get better unless an all star talent is coming back. 
 

just don’t understand why there isn’t more talk to trade Hunter, Capela, and pretty much anyone else before those 4 guys.

 

personally for me I have to stop looking at fit and look at availability just as much. Trae whom I would never trade unless forced pairs better with Bogi but I can’t trust that Bogi will stay healthy a full season again. So looking at the Trae/Murray tandem and I will say while not a perfect fit, at least they are not injury prone players normally .
 

regardless I just don’t want to get beat in any of  deal.

Edited April 22 by JTB

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, JTB said:

Serious question here.

our we really in cap hell because of these 3 ?

Something just don’t seem right when we are discussing getting better as a whole. Always seems like the hawks can’t keep talent to get better as if it’s abnormal these 3 guys are getting paid the salaries they have. If anything DJ took a pay cut for us. Are we doing anything with DJs humbling negotiation is my question 

 

most hawk fans should agree that  Trae , DJ, Bogi , or JJ shouldn’t be the talent we trade to get better unless an all star talent is coming back. 
 

just don’t understand why there isn’t more talk to trade Hunter, Capela, and pretty much anyone else before those 4 guys.

 

personally for me I have to stop looking at fit and look at availability just as much. Trae whom I would never trade unless forced pairs better with Bogi but I can’t trust that Bogi will stay healthy a full season again. So looking at the Trae/Murray tandem and I will say while not a perfect fit, at least they are not injury prone players normally .
 

regardless I just don’t want to get beat in any of  deal.

Hunter don't got a ton of trade value because of the contract and CC is a negative asset right now at this current salary. As I mentioned earlier, the new salary cap has squeezed the middle class and sadly, we gave those ext before the market curved 

Murray and OO are our best assets just due to their good contracts. 

[Final_quest]

@JTB

During the ECF run we had multiple guys on rookie contracts as starters and in the rotation.  
The best teams leverage ring chasers and rookie contracts.  They are top heavy apart from that with their salary.  
We are top heavy with redundant talent, Trae and Murray.  We’ve got only one rookie contract in the rotation, and no real ring chaser level talent that gets paid close to vet min salary.  The guys getting paid are questionable fits.  
People act like signing one more guy to an MLE deal fixes everything.  There are bigger issues that are much more complex.  

We need to trade a piece or two. Get another couple key contributor from the draft.  Then sign that MLE guy that so many people hyper focus on.  

[benhillboy]

15 hours ago, NBASupes said:

@benhillboy

 

That guy gets it.  Limited minutes (because Spo likes to play Rozier over him for some outlandish reason smh) but still lead the entire reigning East champs  roster in on/off:

 

He does everything Trae doesn’t, Trae does everything he doesn’t.  No gross overlapping of strengths and weaknesses like with DJ.  Sh*t was obvious when Nate finally got some brains and played them together.  I’ve always envisioned Grayson Allen fitting excellently next to Trae as well. 

Edited April 22 by benhillboy

[benhillboy]

I thought DJ could play off the ball some but he revealed to me pretty early that he couldn’t/ wouldn’t.  More Derozan rubbed off on him when it should’ve been White.

In two seasons have we ever seen DJ set a solid screen and cut through the lane dragging a defender?  Nope.

Edited April 22 by benhillboy

[Hawkmoor]

 

 

https://sportsnaut.com/trae-young-poor-rep-difficulty-of-hawks-trade/#:~:text=NBA-,NBA insider details Trae Young's poor rep around league%2C why,or move Dejounte Murray instead&text=If the Atlanta Hawks plan,value than the homegrown star.

NBA insider details Trae Young’s poor rep around league, why Hawks will have to ‘settle’ for far less or move Dejounte Murray instead

The three-time All-Star would seem like an easy player to move because of his elite talent as an offensive player. However, during a conversation with Sportsnaut this week, NBC Sports Senior Writer Kurt Helin revealed the poor opinion talent evaluators around the NBA have about Young heading into his seventh season in the league.

 

“They are going to try hard to trade Trae Young. That’s going to happen,” Helin claimed. “But from people I’ve talked to around the league these calls often go something like this, ‘Trae Young, yea, what would that [trade] look like? By the way, is Dejounte available?’ People in the league just like Dejounte’s game better.

“Where Trae Young doesn’t defend, demands the ball; he scores a lot of points, gets a lot of assists, will bring your offense up — he’s an All-Star [and] borderline All-NBA offensive player — but there’s a sense that you can’t really build a true winner around him,” he added. “You could with Dejounte. They’ve got to move one of them, it obviously doesn’t work. But it’s going to be interesting to see what they might ultimately have to settle for to move Trae.”

There have been rumblings for months that Young’s value around the league has fallen greatly from a peak when he led the team to the Eastern Conference Finals in 2021. It also probably explains why the Hawks reportedly had a high asking price for Murray before the deadline because they were aware he had more value around the game.

 

 

 

Edited April 22 by Hawkmoor

[NBASupes]

44 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

 

 

https://sportsnaut.com/trae-young-poor-rep-difficulty-of-hawks-trade/#:~:text=NBA-,NBA insider details Trae Young's poor rep around league%2C why,or move Dejounte Murray instead&text=If the Atlanta Hawks plan,value than the homegrown star.

NBA insider details Trae Young’s poor rep around league, why Hawks will have to ‘settle’ for far less or move Dejounte Murray instead

The three-time All-Star would seem like an easy player to move because of his elite talent as an offensive player. However, during a conversation with Sportsnaut this week, NBC Sports Senior Writer Kurt Helin revealed the poor opinion talent evaluators around the NBA have about Young heading into his seventh season in the league.

 

“They are going to try hard to trade Trae Young. That’s going to happen,” Helin claimed. “But from people I’ve talked to around the league these calls often go something like this, ‘Trae Young, yea, what would that [trade] look like? By the way, is Dejounte available?’

There have been rumblings for months that Young’s value around the league has fallen greatly from a peak when he led the team to the Eastern Conference Finals in 2021. It also probably explains why the Hawks reportedly had a high asking price for Murray before the deadline because they were aware he had more value around the game.

 

 

 

 

The Hawks trying to trade Trae over Murray is false.

His trade value has falling is true. It has significantly falling across the league. 

Quote

People in the league just like Dejounte’s game better.

 

“Where Trae Young doesn’t defend, demands the ball; he scores a lot of points, gets a lot of assists, will bring your offense up — he’s an All-Star [and] borderline All-NBA offensive player — but there’s a sense that you can’t really build a true winner around him,” he added. “You could with Dejounte. They’ve got to move one of them, it obviously doesn’t work. But it’s going to be interesting to see what they might ultimately have to settle for to move Trae.”

I can't say I disagree. Murray is better and he's a smooth fit at PG for teams like NO, PHX, ORL, etc. You gotta build around Trae and that's not easy to do. We know. That said, Trae is the one that can carry a franchise. Not Murray which shouldn't be his role anyway. 

Edited April 22 by NBASupes

[macdaddy]

All these 'insider rumors' are just so obviously made up.  If Trae was truly on the market there  would be double digits of teams falling all over themselves to get him. 

It's funny they say 'you can't build a winning team around Trae' when it's already been done and 'you can build a winner around DJ' when so far it  hasn't been done in his career even under Pop.  A team with Derozan, White, and Murray went 33-39

 

Back to the topic though.  Murray is being seriously overrated right now and Trae underrated which is a great time to trade Murray.   

[bird_dirt]

29 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The Hawks trying to trade Trae over Murray is false.

His trade value has falling is true. It has significantly falling across the league. 

I can't say I disagree. Murray is better and he's a smooth fit at PG for teams like NO, PHX, ORL, etc. You gotta build around Trae and that's not easy to do. We know. That said, Trae is the one that can carry a franchise. Not Murray which shouldn't be his role anyway. 

Hopefully he goes to NO, a WC team with better assets than PHX. ORL would never give up the ransom that would make it worth trading him there for us to play against all the time. 

[AHF]

I guess the positive is that in crapping on Trae the media is pumping DJM.  After a trade deadline where they implied we'd be lucky to get a bench player and a 2029 first round pick, now they are putting out a message that he should draw a ton of value with everyone salivating over him.  At least the media is working to inflate his value with this (even though that is secondary to just dumping on Trae).

[macdaddy]

It's crazy to me that there is this much consideration over trading Trae.  Dude is the second best passer in the league and top 3 PG easily.  

Folks are too hung up on not being as good as other guys.  None of that matters.  Look at NY.  They put pieces on that team and if they were healthy they'd be in the conference finals most likely.  All around an undersized PG.  After we beat them they went to work and acquired talent. 

 

 

[JeffS17]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

It's crazy to me that there is this much consideration over trading Trae.

You know all the talk Landry has done about having "Hawks DNA"?  To me, this is the front office saying Trae does not have "Hawks DNA".  I've talked ad nauseum about Trae's attitude issues, his issues dealing with refs, and his general disconnectedness from the team -- I would wager that is why, if these reports are true, we are shopping him to see what we could get back.

[REHawksFan]

13 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Look at NY.  They put pieces on that team and if they were healthy they'd be in the conference finals most likely.  All around an undersized PG.  After we beat them they went to work and acquired talent. 

Trae's too small.  Trae's too slow. Trae's too weak. Trae's too blah blah blah.  Not a mention about Brunson from the eggsperts.  Brunson is what, 0.5" taller and has a wingspan that is 1.0" longer?  Give me a break.  If the Hawks put the right guys around Trae they can absolutely win a title with him.  

[REHawksFan]

9 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I've talked ad nauseum about Trae's attitude issues, his issues dealing with refs, and his general disconnectedness from the team

Aside from the complaining to the refs (which literally every star in the NBA does), all of the rest are 100% your opinion based on nothing.  Give me a break.  Unless you are with the team, there's is ZERO chance you know anything about Trae's attitude or his connectedness to the team.