How much criticism of BK/Woody is rooted in Racism

[TexasPete]

What an ignorant initial post! I have seen you bring this drivel to other boards and now you pollute this board with the same garbage. So, we cannot analyze and genuinely crititique people of color without having the racist tag slapped on us? The fact that we have the worst record in the NBA over BK and Woodys reign has nothing to do with the job they have done?

The initial post says a ton about the mentality of the person who wrote it. BTW, Woody and BK would not want people holding back and sugar coating because of their race. Why do we need to hold back honest criticism because someone is a man of color? My friends who are Black would be pissed if anyone ever held back or treated them with kid gloves because of their color...the initial post was made not by a man of color, but my a weak man who is crippled in his own mind. The post reveals far too much of a weak interior...leave that weak ass argument in your own head where it belongs.

[Plainview1981]

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You knew that BK had to pick an experienced coach...

Listen to the line:

"Hi, I want you to coach my team. I want you to know this coming in, I plan to trade away every good player that is there, go under the salary cap for 2 to 3 years, and build from the draft and the NBADL... and I can't afford to pay you much......"

How many experienced coaches would say "Yes, I want to build my legacy on a team filled with young players".

That's why we have Woody. I wish we could have kept Stotts, but something tells me that he and BK had run ins before BK became GM.

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Very understandable point... But this goes back further than Woody. Hiring Lon was a big mistake and it's been downhill since. i know the team was in rebuilding stages then also, but hiring a college coach for the pro game is simply idiotic because it's been proven that it doesn't work.

[Yeti]

That is just an easy out for BK and Woody, and an effort to shut people up. Don't give them that excuse. Neither are doing well and the evidence is on the court. Everyone in the organization is getting paid huge amounts of money and they are expected to produce a winning and entertaining team. If they can't do their job then they should be replaced - just like anyone else. I'm absolutely shocked they've lasted this long. It's not race. You don't hear anyone wishing for Babcock again. There is also no shortage of criticism for the owners - but we can't fire them. (And I think Zaza gets as much criticism as any player on the team.) - We are just all fed up and frustrated with years of poor performance.

And it doesn't help that BK and the owners don't do more PR work. When they don't give us anything to hope for then we give up, start looking to the draft, or demand new management and coaching. Seems like each year we start looking to the draft earlier and earlier. Not a good indicator.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I have often thought a lot of criticism of the Administration is rooted on racism. Some will now accuse me of pulling the "race card". But racism is very vailed and disguised. I have read many post concerning the failings of Woody and/or BK when the actual failings are the players themselves (in many cases).

So how much do you really think the hate is racism or what?

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LOL @ Swat.

And that's part of the reason why I make it a point to point out things that Woody and BK has done well here. Not necessarily because of a racial undertone, but because people think that Woody is completely clueless. But if they actually watched the games and see how things transpire, he proves on a nightly basis that he isn't clueless. He definitely doesn't do everything right, but he's far from a clueless coach.

But to answer your question directly . . no . . I don't think the criticizm is rooted in racism. But I do think that the vast majority of Hawksquawk doesn't want to give either of these guys ANY CREDIT WHATSOEVER when things go right. When you see something like that, it's easy to think that some racial undertones are behind that, becase we have seen that take place all throughout sports history.

But I think it's more rooted in hate and frustration from all of this losing, than in racism. If it were mainly racism, some of the posters that despise Woody, wouldn't recommend another black coack to take his place, like a Doc Rivers or a Paul Silas.

Here is the thing I hear most on this board:

Woody is an idiot . . BK is an idiot.

Yet, these same people will turn around and try to make a case about us being a playoff caliber team THIS YEAR if:

a) we had a legit PG and/or a legit C.

or

b) we had a better coach to coach these group of guys, without that legit PG and/or legit C.

So let me get this straight. If we had a good PG and C here, Woody wouldn't be an idiot, because we'd be a playoff caliber team, seeing that all we need is a PG and a C?

Or on the flip side . .

If we had a new coach, BK wouldn't be an idiot, because another coach would have these same group of guys, without the PG or C, actually winning games, thus, validating most of the player acquisitions that BK has made the past 3 years?

This is the great contradiction on Hawksquawk.

If Woody is an idiot, why would a couple of players make any difference? If the Hawks are over .500 with Chris Paul instead of Marvin Williams, how does that make Woody less of an idiot? And does that make BK less of an idiot as well? Wouldn't Woody make the same kinds of supposed substitution and coaching mental errors, even if he had better players here?

Or would the difference acually be that the PLAYERS that Woody would have to coach, would be much better, thus, making him LOOK like a better coach because the Hawks would be winning?

With the Hawks basically proving that they can play .500 ball when they have most of their key guys in the lineup, the downfall of this season has STILL been squarely been placed on Woody and BK.

They're the sole reason for the 18 - 30 record this season in most people's eyes, even though it was CLEARLY evident that it was those rash of injuries in December, that completely knocked us off track.

I've asked many times on this board what would the Hawks record be if we had everyone healthy? And the vast majority of the time that question goes unanswered.

Why?

Because people do not want to admit that these two guys may actually have something here, even though we don't have all the pieces we should have here yet.

It's easier for Hawksquawk to say that we're a horrible team and a horrible franchise because of BK and Woody, than to admit that we could very well be a 24 - 24 ballclub, and the #8 seed in the East, if guys like Marvin, Smoove, Chill, Lue, and Speedy ALL didn't miss WEEKS at a time.

Every other team in the NBA, with the exception of Houston and the LA Lakers, have completely seen their seasons fall apart when one or more of their key guys have had to miss significant time. But for the Hawks, that excuse isn't even an option. It's all on the coaches and the front office.

To admit that we'd be a .500 team right now, is to admit that Woody and BK have this franchise right where they should be. And to admit that, would be a smack in the face to 80% of the posters on this board that despise everything about management and coaches. THAT'S why they'll NEVER give Woody or BK credit for anything.

Just look at it.

- Smoove gets all the credit for improving HIMSELF, instead of the coaches and the coaching staff putting him in position to really become an impact offensive player for us. Smoove has been characterized as a lazy ( at times ) and undisciplined player that shot way too many bad shots. Ever since Woody has moved him to the 4, he's become a player that provides energy on both ends of the court and a guy that takes what the defense gives him on offense. Even as late as 2 months ago, people like me, Diesel, and others on this board question if Smoove had any toughness. 2 months later, I don't even consider that to be an issue now.

- Chill gets all the credit for his own improvement, especially after seeing that he was Public Enemy #1 on this board back in November 2005, even though it was Woody who turned him into a 6th man type player, and has seen his game become rock solid ever since. And it was the move to have him play point guard in short stretches back in January, that helped stabilize this team.

- The move to start Lorenzen and bring ZaZa off the bench, while not better offensively, has helped us to become more stable defensively. And even from an offensive standpoint, it allows guys like Smoove and Marvin to look for their offense earlier in games, instead of deferring to JJ and ZaZa.

Those are just some of the positives to look at, to counteract all of the negatives that people post. Heck, I could post about 5 other things that Woody/BK have done to solidify things here. As of right now though, all people see is the 18 - 30 record.

I wonder if Bucks fans have turned on Terry Stotts with the way the Bucks have completely fallen off the face of the earth with the Michael Redd injury, even though THAT'S the reason why they've fallen off. Stotts is the same coach he was back in December, when the Bucks went 11 - 6 during that month, and had the #8 seed. Now, they're in the same position that we are.

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But as far as Woody goes, take last night's final play, for instance.

If you fault Woody for anything last night, fault him for having J-Rich in that game in that situation. Sure, you may need a shooter out there. But we're talking about a guy who has only been in the league 2 weeks, and you're asking him to potentially take a game winning shot or make a play to set up that shot, if the ball happens to get rotated to him.

But to fault Woody because the Nets denied JJ the ball, isn't telling all that needs to be told about that play.

The advantage of actually TAPING Hawks games, is that you can go back to the tape, and review that play over and over again, to acutally see what was going on.

In my opinion, that play wasn't going to JJ in the first place. It was always supposed to go to set up Lue, because he'd be the guy most likely not to get doubled and have to take a tough shot. And he's proven that he can hit big shots over the years.

When JJ popped up top to get the ball, he was doubled immeadiately. In fact, if you look at how JJ's body language was after he was doubled, it wasn't like he was making a big time attempt to get the ball anyway. Plus, he was struggling with his shot and he's not necessarily the best guy to beat a double team off the dribble.

The 2nd part of that play, saw J-Rich draw Carter to the corner. J-Rich wasn't supposed to be part of that play at all.

Part 3 of that play saw Marvin set an obstruction type screen ( it really wasn't a screen, more like Marvin just being in the way ), and Lue coming straight to Chill to get the ball.

Lue gets the ball, and immeadiately gets the ball back to Childress. By this time, Kidd is racing back away from JJ, to try to help on Chill.

Chill draws 3 people to him when he goes toward the baseline.

And who was WIDE OPEN AT THE 3 POINT LINE?

Tyronn Lue . . who was fully expecting the ball to come back to him. All Chill had to do is throw the ball back to Lue, and he has a wide open jumper, with all of the Nets scrambling toward Chill, to possibly win the game.

But as Chill went to the baseline, he saw Vince Carter leave J-Rich to triple-team him, but leave J-Rich WIDE OPEN on the baseline, who was drifting to the other side of the court.

If you want to fault Woody, fault him for having a player ( J-Rich ) who didn't have the awarenes to be in the right spot to make that play. But after 1.5 seconds elasped on the clock ( 6 seconds actual on the game clock ), Chill had 2 WIDE OPEN people to get the ball to.

Or, he had the option to do like Smitty said . . . TAKE IT HARD TO THE HOLE and possibly draw a foul.

That's 3 options for "supposedly" our most intelligent player to choose from. And he chose to pass the ball to a rookie jumpshooter.

And because J-Rich is a "jumpshooter", his instinct is to keep drifting away from Chill, so that he'll have space to shoot his jumper if the ball came to him. NOT to stop outside the paint, so that he could receive a possible ponit blank pass from Chill, to possibly get a lay-up.

So when J-Rich gets the ball with 5 seconds still on the clock, all he's thinking about is . . "I got to get this shot off before the clock runs out and before they get too close to me."

5 seconds is an eternity in NBA basketball. But J-Rich shoots a 15 foot fadeaway jumper, instead of having the awareness to pass it to Marvin, who is WIDE OPEN at the free throw line. Marvin even claps for the ball to try to get J-Rich's attention that he's open

And I highlight that last sentence for a reason. In the New Jersey game, there was a situation in that game in which Speedy had received a pass from JJ after he was doubled. There was like 4 seconds on the shot clock. JJ claps 3 times at Speedy as he was catching the ball, and Speedy got the ball right back to JJ, who was wide open for a 21 footer that he drains.

It's little plays like that, that veteran players make. So when Marvin clapped for J-Rich to throw him the ball for an open shot, I immeadiately thought of that play in the Jersey game between JJ and Speedy.

But of course, J-Rich misses, and Childress was completely oblivious to the fact that there were still 2.5 seconds on the clock at the time where Vince grabbed the rebound.

So who's the blame for the non-execution on that play?

- Blame Woody for having a rookie in the game, instead of an experienced player.

- Blame Chill for making 3 bad decisions on that play . . 1) not seeing that Lue was open . . 2) not driving hard to the hole and putting the game in his own hands with either making the lay-up or drawing the foul . . 3) not having the awarenes to foul Carter, to possibly give the Hawks one last shot to tie the game after Carter's FTs.

- Blame J-Rich for losing the time of the game, and taking a rushed shot.

- Blame JJ for not DEMANDING that he have the ball, either in the huddle when the initial play was called or making a stronger effort to get the ball even after being doubled.

But the play call was a very good one, that should've gotten someone a wide open look.

[Swatguy]

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LOL @ Swat.

And that's part of the reason why I make it a point to point out things that Woody and BK has done well here. Not necessarily because of a racial undertone, but because people think that Woody is completely clueless. But if they actually watched the games and see how things transpire, he proves on a nightly basis that he isn't clueless. He definitely doesn't do everything right, but he's far from a clueless coach.

But to answer your question directly . . no . . I don't think the criticizm is rooted in racism. But I do think that the vast majority of Hawksquawk doesn't want to give either of these guys

ANY CREDIT WHATSOEVER

when things go right. When you see something like that, it's easy to think that some racial undertones are behind that, becase we have seen that take place all throughout sports history.

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Thank you, you read the question correctly and responded

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Here is the thing I hear most on this board:

Woody is an idiot . . BK is an idiot.

Yet, these same people will turn around and try to make a case about us being a

playoff caliber team THIS YEAR

if:

a) we had a legit PG and/or a legit C.

or

b) we had a better coach to coach these group of guys, without that legit PG and/or legit C.

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I believe Chillz made the right move, Richardson has a good shot and he was open. What you hope for is a good shot.

[Sothron]

I can't stand Twiddledum and Twiddledummer because they simply stink at their jobs. I could not care less if they were black or white. Hell they could even be Orthodox Christians like myself (see avatar) and I would want them fired for their incompetence.

[AHF]

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So how much do you really think the hate is racism or what?

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Almost none.

[Swatguy]

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I can't stand Twiddledum and Twiddledummer because they simply stink at their jobs. I could not care less if they were black or white. Hell they could even be Orthodox Christians like myself (see avatar) and I would want them fired for their incompetence.

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Kinda like a pound of flesh huh? Since you are a Christian shouldn't you pray for the coach and GM instead of call them out of their names (Twiddledum and Twiddledummer) wishing for them ill? If not why not?

Just wondering.

[Diesel]

So was it coaching or common sense, when Phil Jackson put the ball into the Hands of Toni Kukoc instead of Scottie Pippen many moons ago?

There is always a choice.

If you have a well defined guy.. Good. Still, Frank could have choosen House to take the last shot, especially if Vince was doubled.

[AtLaS]

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I can't stand Twiddledum and Twiddledummer because they simply stink at their jobs. I could not care less if they were black or white. Hell they could even be Orthodox Christians like myself (see avatar) and I would want them fired for their incompetence.

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Kinda like a pound of flesh huh? Since you are a Christian shouldn't you pray for the coach and GM instead of call them out of their names (Twiddledum and Twiddledummer) wishing for them ill? If not why not?

Just wondering.

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Who wishes them ill? He is saying they aren't good at their jobs so he could careless what they are, they need to go..

[Diesel]

Remember, Lon was the runner up.

We originally wanted Izzo.

When Izzo turned us down, stupid Babcock pushed for the next available college coach he could find to "save face". He wanted to prove that his original thinking was right. He wanted to get away from the oldest coach in the game and get an image of a new younger coach who can "reach" the players...

YEAH..

[AtLaS]

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If you have a well defined guy.. Good. Still, Frank could have choosen House to take the last shot, especially if Vince was doubled.

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I'm sure he told Vince to kick it to House for the open J if he couldn't get open or was doubled.

Bottom line, what I'm saying is that in those situations someone HAS to get the ball, had Lue missed that shot we would all have been crying because JJ didn't get the ball. This is why I give most of the credit to the player in those situations.

Who gives Phil Jackson credit for all of MJ's game winners, or Kobe's game winners?? I mean there is credit to be given, but moreso to the player than the coach, unless it was a brilliantly designed play that worked to perfection or something.

[Diesel]

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had Lue missed that shot we would all have been crying because JJ didn't get the ball. This is why I give most of the credit to the player in those situations.

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Had Lue missed the Shot, you would not have blamed LUE.. You would have blamed WOODY for calling a Play for Lue to take the Shot instead of 37 point, hot hand JJ...

TELL THE TRUTH

However, Lue did hit the shot.. and you give Minimum credit to Woody...

Do you see the problem?

If Lue Misses all the blame goes to the coach.

If Lue Hits all the credit goes to Lue...

HMMM...

[jerrywest]

There is your litmus test.

[thesheedera]

I don't think the criticism is rooted in racism, but I'm certain that the tone that the criticism manifests itself in is in some cases saturated in racism.

Woodson's failure to win basketball games is monumental. White, black, whatever, he's gonna be criticised, and I personally think he deserves a decent protion of it. He deserves to be commended for the way he's handled his extremely difficult job with class and determination.

But my point is that his record is terrible, and that's the CAUSE of the criticism. When the criticism spills into hate, that's when the racism seems to come out, from certain whities among us.

Now BK is a different story. He has an attitude, he has a chip on his shoulder. Racists love to hate black guys with an attitude. I would be more easily convinced that he is criticised more due to his skin color than he would if he were white.

But honestly I think it stems to a different kind of prejudice. It is flat out trendy to hate the Hawks, and piling on our failures. These same two guys would be viewed very differently with the same track records but with a different franchise.

[jerrywest]

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I don't think the criticism is rooted in racism, but I'm certain that the tone that the criticism manifests itself in is in some cases saturated in racism.

Woodson's failure to win basketball games is monumental. White, black, whatever, he's gonna be criticised, and I personally think he deserves a decent protion of it. He deserves to be commended for the way he's handled his extremely difficult job with class and determination.

But my point is that his record is terrible, and that's the CAUSE of the criticism. When the criticism spills into hate, that's when the racism seems to come out, from certain whities among us.

Now BK is a different story. He has an attitude, he has a chip on his shoulder. Racists love to hate black guys with an attitude. I would be more easily convinced that he is criticised more due to his skin color than he would if he were white.

But honestly I think it stems to a different kind of prejudice. It is flat out trendy to hate the Hawks, and piling on our failures. These same two guys would be viewed very differently with the same track records but with a different franchise.

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Well said. You are on a roll today.

[gsuteke]

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There is your litmus test.

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now that you point it out there aren't any white guys on the team at all. speaking of Americans of course.

[jerrywest]

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There is your litmus test.

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now that you point it out there aren't any white guys on the team at all. speaking of Americans of course.

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Requesting for one is another litmus test.

[gsuteke]

enough of this reverse racism!

I want......... uh......... uh......... damn who is a good white American player?

let me think.......

LOL no wonder why Morrison went so high, he's priceless for the NBA's diversity program!

anyhow enough of this reverse racism!

[DrReality]

The question doesn't even deserve a reply. Let them go on a ten game winning streak, and most of this all disappears.