Woodson believes he deserves to return

[frosgrim]

The Woodson argument is tiresome, but let me reiterate the relevant points for getting new leadership:

1) Woodson's in-game management is awful- he has no idea about when to use players or how to use them.

2) He forgets about players- what happened to Law in the playoffs? Rondo killed Bibby, yet Law stays on the bench. You can't argue that Bibby stayed out for offense because Bibby was playing horribly on offense. Furthermore, the entire offensive plan was to give JJ the ball and see what happened. UNEXCUSABLE gaff.

3) Plays favorites with players- best way to loose a team is to play favorites with players

4) the 2 foul rule. Going against the grain works every so often, but the "logic" behind this choice is indefensible.

5) Player development- horrible. He has 1 player out all the draftees that is playing significantly better after being with Woodson. That player is Josh Smith, who by all accounts doesn't talk to Woodson; ergo Josh's improvements are independent of Woodson

6) Overplaying players or not managing minutes. The argument that Woodson didn't have a bench is tired and inaccurate. Boston, for example, has several 2nd round picks that play significant minutes for the team. Other teams fully utilize their benches throughout the season to keep players fresh. Woodson simply never gave guys a chance to play. Inexcusably, when guys got in the game they would get yanked even after making significant contributions. Even after a good game, they wouldn't be rewarded with more PT. This is another sure way to loose your team.

7) Woodson manages the game like every possession is the final possession of game 7 of the NBA championship. You can't do that in an 82 game season. Quarters and even games have to be managed with the future in mind, esp. in the down time from January through Feb when players are fatigued.

These arguments are independent of the record, but they are the reason for the win/loss record. They are also the reason that the Hawks got blown out in 4 consecutive road playoff games.

I will find it very difficult to watch the Hawks next year with Woodson on the sideline.

[Packfill]

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Even with Bibby we failed on several chances to really lock up the playoff spot against . We continued to play as inconsistently as ever and please don't overlook that despite going to 7 games we were basically embarrassed in 4 losses in Boston including a game seven we couldn't even make competitive. You can blame the players and youth etc. but at some point the coach has to be able to put them in a position to win.

Does anyone remember our march to the playoffs? Here is a refresher:

Apr 2 vs Toronto W 127-120 Johnson 28/Horford 12/Bibby 12

Apr 4 vs Philadelphia L 104-109 Johnson 32/Smith 8/Bibby 11

Apr 5 at Philadelphia W 92-85 Johnson 22/Horford 12/Johnson 6

Apr 8 at Indiana L 98-112 Johnson 30/Smith 13/Johnson 4

Apr 11 at New York W 116-104 Johnson 34/Horford 11/Johnson 6

Apr 12 vs Boston L 89-99 Johnson 21/Horford 11/Johnson 8

Apr 15 vs Orlando L 105-121 Williams 16/Horford 11/Horford 6

Apr 16 at Miami L 99-113

We locked up the playoff spot after the Boston loss, when Indy lost. Before that Boston loss, we'd won 11 out of 15 games. THAT was our "march" to the playoffs.

Here's what I find hilarious. After we did lock up the playoff spot, many people on this board were wanting Woody to basically play the scrubs as much as possible to either get them somewhat ready for the playoffs, or see what they could do with extended playing time. The final 2 games, in most people's eyes, didn't matter one bit.

And while we didn't completely shut it down as a team, Bibby and especially JJ did during those last 2 games.

Yet, people act like we played all out to win those final 2 games. So when we win 37 games, instead of 39 games, it looks worse. And because it looks worse, people truly want to believe that this team didn't improve much or that they faultered down the stretch.

Please.

The next step for the Hawks, is to become as close to a .500 team on the road as possible. We're not improved, but we won 25 home games, and 3 home playoff games against the possible EC represenative?

And the reason why the East is weak, is because the mediocre teams in the East can't beat the West teams on the road outside of Memphis and Seattle. And even those teams had some success against the mediocre East teams.

There is very little difference between the lower seeded East playoff teams: Atlanta, Philly, Washington, and Toronto.

Using that logic, there is also very little difference between the Hawks and lottery teams like Indiana, New Jersey, Charlotte, Chicago, etc.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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The difference between Washington and Atlanta is 6 games, and Washington did that with Gilbert Arenas playing in only 13 games. Imagine how big that gap is if Arenas plays in 80 games.

Sorry, but if the Hawks can't use the "what if's", then no other team can either. Hell, what if Bibby wasn't hobbled in those first 10 or so games? This fan base always tend to dog everything we do, but give other teams a pass when they underachieve or have problems.

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A lot of you want to reference that stretch of the season where Woodson had Bibby. Take my word for it, Bibby got here in time for our absolute weakest stretch on the schedule. From March 16 to the end of the season, we played ONE western conference team, and it was Memphis. We played the Knicks THREE times. Also we had two games against the Bulls, and games against Milwaukee, Indiana, and New Jersey.

So all of those other teams didn't have "weak" parts of their schedule to string together a bunch of wins? It just so happened that our "weak" games came at the end of the year.

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12 of our last 17 games were played against teams with a losing record. That's a pretty large percentage, guys. We were absolutely due for a winning streak. By the way, at that point in the season, there's not a lot of teams that have anything to play for. Playoff position had been determined for several teams, like Boston and Orlando, well before the end, and Miami and NY knew they were jockeying for lottery position.

LOL @ due for a winnng streak. Ish, record-wise, we were just as bad as most of the teams we played during that stretch. The entire East, outside of Miami, thought they could get that 8th spot, because of how bad we played out West in February. No one, outside of a few Hawk fans, even thought we could win 8 games down the stretch, forget 11.

Wasington, Indy, Jersey, Chicacgo ( twice ) , Philly ( twice ), and Orlando all were either trying to catch us, or hold their current playoff position.

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Two teams who had something to play for were New Jersey and Indiana. They were the two teams who were fighting with us for the last position in the Eastern conference playoffs. They weren't exactly good teams either. But we lost to both of those teams-they should have been big games for us, but we were almost NEVER in that game against the Pacers.

Those teams HAD to win those games, home games for them by the way. They were playing out of sheer desperation. And you see what happened after they beat us. They couldn't even beat lesser teams and try to keep pace.

But like i said, even if we'd won those 2 games, but still dropped the final 3, we're still only at 39 wins, and the same complaints would be taking place. But instead of criticizing the Hawks for losing road games vs Jersey and a red hot Indy team at the time, it would be looked at as "we were supposed to beat Indy and Jersey anyway."

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Please don't use the stretch run to defend Mike Woodson. Stick to the playoff wins-at least those were against a good team, even if Woodson was less responsible for those than the home crowd.

Northcyde, your 11 wins during our MARCH to the playoffs: NY Knicks (3 times), Washington, Orlando (a nice win), Milwaukee, Chicago, Memphis, Toronto, and Philly. That's TWO teams with winning records. A nice march over poor competition.

Those 11 wins represent the best stretch of basketball the Hawks had played in 9 years. Go look it up and see.

And actually, Washington, Orlando, Philly, and Toronto all had winning records at the time we played them. 4 playoff teams, mind you. We took care of business against the Knicks, as we should have. ( by the way, go check and see how many East teams swept the knicks )

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EDIT: The more I look at the last line of the post I quoted, the more funny it gets. There is little difference between the Hawks and Indiana, New Jersey, and Chicago. I mean, it's only four games between the Hawks and the Bulls, and 6 between the Hawks and Washington (who played most of the year without Arenas). Congratulations, I can say we're solidly one of the 11 best teams in the weak East. Status quo is unacceptable-we have to be a team that can play over .500 for a season.

Nobody wants the status-quo. Of course they need to be a .500 or better team next year. It's just that the majority of the fan base wants to believe it can't happen, even if woody is here. It's the pessimitic nature of this fan base that believes that we are more likely to take a step back, than take a step or two forward.

These young guys now know what it is like to be in the playoffs. That will be the #1 thing that drives them next year. Toronto, Orlando, Chicago, Washington, and Cleveland all had to go through their growing pains, before they started to turn things around. We're now in that young group of teams that is steadily improving and looks to have a bright future.

It's just that you gloom and doomers are afraid to really believe that, just like most of you thought that Boston would sweep us. It's that same mentality that had people doubting JJ or now believing that Marvin is a player in decline.

Fans need to start giving this team and the coaches credit on how they finished the year, instead of giving excuse after excuse of those factos that "should've" kept us down. If we keep this team together, and add 1 or 2 decent pieces to bring off the bench, this team should have little problem making the playoffs next year.

[AHF]

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Fans need to start giving this team and the coaches credit on how they finished the year, instead of giving excuse after excuse of those factos that "should've" kept us down. If we keep this team together, and add 1 or 2 decent pieces to bring off the bench, this team should have little problem making the playoffs next year.

I don't know if I count as a doom and gloomer but I thought that last year's team with its lack of injuries and significant talent should have had little problem making the playoffs. I think we should have little problem making the playoffs next year. The fact is, though, that we did have trouble making the playoffs and got in by the skin of our teeth -- coming into last season 37 wins was enough to have made the playoffs only once in a non-strike year since the 1995-96 season.

It is not about doom and gloom for me - it is the fact that I feel we underacheived last season.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I can't decisvely say that we were a better team with Bibby. Say what you will about AJ, he played really well for us when he was the starter. Bibby is a better player an does a lot of things that AJ can't, but our BEST stretch of the season was in December. We beat Utah at home during that stretch, and won games at Orlando and at Washington. We even played made a run at Dallas at the start of the fourth quarter to make it a close game before the Mavs ultimately pulled away. We also beat some easy teams in there as well, but we beat three teams that were actually pretty good, and two of those on the road.

But honestly, we probably are a better team with Bibby-when he's healthy. I think sometime around early April he must have aggravated that thumb injury because we much less effective than he was immediatelya fter we got him. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there. So why does Woodson deserve credit for the team playing a little better when we got a better player? That's not coaching, that's improving your talent level.

Because that's the excuse every other coach and great player in the league would use. Better players were the reason why Kobe was crying this time last year. Get him Fisher, Gasol, and young guys who have matured a little, and BAM . . they're playing for a championship.

Players were the reason why Larry Brown quit on the Knicks. It was the players that got a decent coach like Scott Skiles fired. Then they wonder why they didn't get any better as the season progressed. Players . . Hall of Fame caliber players . . saved Doc Rivers job, after the players he had last year stunk it up on the court.

I don't care how good of a coach you are in this league, you need players performing at a high level every night, in order to win games. It is the coach's responsibility to put them in the best possible position to win games, but the players have to ultimately execute on both ends of the floor.

The Miami Heat lost 26 out of 28 games at one point this year. Why? Because Wade was hobbled and not 100%, and Shaq was a fat tub of lard that got winded at the end of games and really started not to care at all. A Hall of Fame coach like Pat Riley couldn't win when he didn't have the players. His teams weren't even competitive some nights.

That's the excuse you actually give for Washington not being a better team than they were, because they were missing Arenas for most of the season. But a player being hobbled for the Hawks or Woody having inferior players, doesn't carry much weight with the fan base.

LOL @ AJ played well. AJ had like 6 - 8 games he played well in December. The rest of the time, he was virtually a non-factor, other than being a guy who could bring the ball up. He was solid defensively, but he was no more than a better passing and shooting version of Royal Ivey.

Defense was the reason why we won in December. We were stellar defensively back then.

[DeacKillsaDevil]

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STFU Woody and get out of ATL

That's because he does.

[thescout5]

True the Hawk's do need better players however with what Woody had to work with had FUNDAMENTALS been taught and exercised this team would have done alot better than 37 wins. I mean come on 4 yrs should be enough time to learn how to box out on the boards. I saw over and over again vs the Celtic's where a box out would have helped the Hawk's get a rebound instead Boston cleaned up on the Hawk's lack of fundamentals.

Way to much one on one play and not finding the open man.Accountability does Woody have any? This is why you pay the coach why hasn't he done it? People want to point the fact the Hawk's won the home games in the playoffs at the same time they got buried on the road vs the Celtic's.

Woody needs to be gone I know players like JJ don't want that but getting a real coach will make a huge difference and more talent. Players don't want to change systems all the time but for the Hawk's own good it would be wise to get some one else that will teach

1.discipline

2.fundamentals

Way to many times Woodson let the inmates control the asylum. Players did what they wanted without penalty, that shows a lack of leadership right there.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Fans need to start giving this team and the coaches credit on how they finished the year, instead of giving excuse after excuse of those factos that "should've" kept us down. If we keep this team together, and add 1 or 2 decent pieces to bring off the bench, this team should have little problem making the playoffs next year.

I don't know if I count as a doom and gloomer but I thought that last year's team with its lack of injuries and significant talent should have had little problem making the playoffs. I think we should have little problem making the playoffs next year. The fact is, though, that we did have trouble making the playoffs and got in by the skin of our teeth -- coming into last season 37 wins was enough to have made the playoffs only once in a non-strike year since the 1995-96 season.

It is not about doom and gloom for me - it is the fact that I feel we underacheived last season.

If we underachieved, it was only by 3 - 5 games. It wasn't like we had a 48-win team here. I thought at the most we could win 45 games, but 41 games was more realistic. When a team plays .500 ball, they are usually schizophrenic, especially on the road. And that's exactly what the Hawks were. Add that to the fact that our supposed "deep" bench was horrible, and you have a recipe for a 37 win season.

It's just hard to believe that after the year Smith, Horford, and JJ ( in the 2nd half of the season ) had, plus the fact that we won 3 playoff games, after not even being in the playoffs for 9 years, that people are still pessimistic about this team. If Bibby or Acie can give us any kind of stability at the point next year, we should be more than OK.

The West is stronger than the East, and will be next year. So don't be surprised if another 37 win team gets that #8 seed. Just hope that we're in the 40 - 45 win area, so that we can get a #6 or higher seed. That will at least give us a shot to get to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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True the Hawk's do need better players however with what Woody had to work with had FUNDAMENTALS been taught and exercised this team would have done alot better than 37 wins. I mean come on 4 yrs should be enough time to learn how to box out on the boards. I saw over and over again vs the Celtic's where a box out would have helped the Hawk's get a rebound instead Boston cleaned up on the Hawk's lack of fundamentals.

Way to much one on one play and not finding the open man.Accountability does Woody have any? This is why you pay the coach why hasn't he done it? People want to point the fact the Hawk's won the home games in the playoffs at the same time they got buried on the road vs the Celtic's.

Woody needs to be gone I know players like JJ don't want that but getting a real coach will make a huge difference and more talent. Players don't want to change systems all the time but for the Hawk's own good it would be wise to get some one else that will teach

1.discipline

2.fundamentals

Way to many times Woodson let the inmates control the asylum. Players did what they wanted without penalty, that shows a lack of leadership right there.

Who do you penalize, without hurting the team overall? People don't want Smoove to stop shooting jumpers, so they say Woody should've benched him.

So you bench him, and you're forced to either play Marvin at the 4 with Horford at the 5 . . or ZaZa at the 5 and Horford at the 4. Either way, you hurt the team more than you help it, because the defense falls off significantly when Smith is out of the game.

In the end, it's up to Smith himself to play smarter, not Woody make him play smarter by teaching him lessons on the bench. Larry Brown tried to "run the asylum" in NY. But his players still did what they wanted, instead of totally listening to the coach.

And players don't come to the NBA to learn fundamentals. NBA players should already have basic fundamentals down pat. Rebounding is all about desire, which is why Horford is already a top rebounder in the league. So is defense. When you want to be a great shooter, all you do is shoot in the offseason.

The structure of the offense definitely is on Woody. But players also have to execute. Can't have one without the other, and expect to be successful most of the time.

As for the Celtics, the Celtics were supposed to bury us at home too. But they didn't.

The fan base gives the Hawks little credit for those home playoff wins, the further we get away from them. By August, it'll be like we didn't even make the playoffs last year, and that 37 wins is all we did last year.

[TheTrueSiete]

What I haven't been able to get over all year is this "assumption" that the West is sooooo much better than the East.... I don't believe that... I believe that any team can beat any team throughout the season.... How else do you explain the Hawks beating Utah, LA, Phoenix, Dallas, etc. throughout the season... And isn't the best team in the NBA (by record) the Celtics? And the Celtics have been taken to a game 7 not once but twice, so far? The Lakers swept Denver and handled San Antonio in 5... Where's the parity over there? If the West was so great, then why isn't every series going 7?

This whole "the West is better" crap has got to be Media driven... Damn, Stephen A Smith... Look what you did!

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[thefloydian]

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What I haven't been able to get over all year is this "assumption" that the West is sooooo much better than the East.... I don't believe that... I believe that any team can beat any team throughout the season.... How else do you explain the Hawks beating Utah, LA, Phoenix, Dallas, etc. throughout the season... And isn't the best team in the NBA (by record) the Celtics? And the Celtics have been taken to a game 7 not once but twice, so far? The Lakers swept Denver and handled San Antonio in 5... Where's the parity over there? If the West was so great, then why isn't every series going 7?

This whole "the West is better" crap has got to be Media driven... Damn, Stephen A Smith... Look what you did!

7

No, the West is obviously the better conference. The top teams aren't that far apart, but the West is much deeper.

[exodus]

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It's just hard to believe that after the year Smith, Horford, and JJ ( in the 2nd half of the season ) had, plus the fact that we won 3 playoff games, after not even being in the playoffs for 9 years, that people are still pessimistic about this team.

If

Bibby or Acie can give us any kind of stability at the point next year,

we should be more than OK

.

So you think that people should be happy about being more than OK, depending on the pgs?

The goal isn't to be OK or more than OK. The goal is to be a title contender and the hawks are a looooong way from that. Right now they project to be a .500 team in a weak conference.

[Cwell]

the fact that so many people think Bibby will be healthy ever is laughable.He'd be hurt by the 3rd game.

[mattlanta]

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The team has earned more wins each year he has been coach, and made the playoffs for the first time in nearly a decade under him...........

Maybe he does deserve one more year.

lol with a bunch of top 10 picks getting older it's so hard to imporove on 13,26 and 30 wins.RRRRRRIGHT,the guy is trash and needs to be raplaced.

It's not completely Woodson's fault that he couldn't get Chris Paul when he wanted to. I mean... BK has some part of that blame to share.

[Admin]

It is NOT an NBA Head Coach's job to teach fundamentals or discipline. It's his job to teach them how to play in an NBA offense and defend against one. If a player cannot do something as simple as not turn the ball over then the problems are far beyond coaching. If you'll notice not one of our experienced players has a problem with fundamentals or discipline. Acie Law, Al Horford, Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, Mike Bibby ... none of them. Then you look at the kids who didn't get taught those things in high school or college and see how long it takes them to learn at this level. VERY FEW high school (or freshman) to NBA players become fundamentally sound and disciplined in their first few years. It took Josh Smith until his 4th year before he really started demonstrating a grasp of the fundamentals and some sort of discipline.

No, it's not a lack of leadership, it's called Woodson had no choice but to play his best players because his bench is flat out awful and he was trying to get us into the playoffs and save his job. He doesn't have the luxury of a great career record or solid subs to use when his young players are screwing up. If you'll notice EVERY TIME one of them does screw something up he is in their ear as they come back to the bench. It would be once thing if he didn't say anything to them but it's clearly obvious that he repeatedly says something to them but it seems to go in one ear and out the other with many of our low iq and younger players.

[Cwell]

yeah Knight was horrible but the players that he picked are still talented and is good enough to be a top seed in the East,atleast more than the 8th seed.Both are the worst at their jobs but Woodson hurt us alot more than Knight did and I hate Knight.Had we gotten Paul he would have been riding the bench,if we had gotten Deron Williams he would have been riding the bench.If we had gotten Stuckey he would have been riding the bench.We got Acie Law AND HE WAS RIDING THE BENCH!WOODSON IS THE WORST COACH I'VE EVER SEEN,HE CAN'T EVEN DO BASIC COACHING THINGS.

[AHF]

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It's just hard to believe that after the year Smith, Horford, and JJ ( in the 2nd half of the season ) had, plus the fact that we won 3 playoff games, after not even being in the playoffs for 9 years, that people are still pessimistic about this team. If Bibby or Acie can give us any kind of stability at the point next year, we should be more than OK.

The West is stronger than the East, and will be next year. So don't be surprised if another 37 win team gets that #8 seed. Just hope that we're in the 40 - 45 win area, so that we can get a #6 or higher seed. That will at least give us a shot to get to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

I am very upbeat on these guys - especially Smith, Horford and JJ. What I fear is that bringing Woodson back will hurt our chances next season and set back our longterm development.

I agree with you that getting the #6 seed would be a big improvement on our chances of advancing compared to the #8 seed. If we could have matched up against Orlando this year I think we could have advanced.

[exodus]

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Had we gotten Paul he would have been riding the bench,if we had gotten Deron Williams he would have been riding the bench.

omg

[CHORO44]

You never want change for the sake of change but in reality I feel Woodson has done a pretty poor job of player management. I don't want to rehash the season but after watching the Boston playoff series he really did utilize Bibby way too much. I mean Law should have gotten a ton more minutes just for his defense alone. Bibby was not shooting well and we already had Woodson's famous "Give the ball to Joe and stand around" offense implemented 75% of the time.

Now I will say the young guys were not mentally sharp for Game 7 and won't put that on Woodson entireley but really he needs to have these guys ready to play. Limping into the playoffs and not winning clinching games says a lot to me.

I know Marvin is a sore subject and I screamed at him way more than not during the playoffs but I can't help but feel the physical tools are there and he just needs a new coach to push him to the next level.

[Cwell]

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It is NOT an NBA Head Coach's job to teach fundamentals or discipline. It's his job to teach them how to play in an NBA offense and defend against one. If a player cannot do something as simple as not turn the ball over then the problems are far beyond coaching. If you'll notice not one of our experienced players has a problem with fundamentals or discipline. Acie Law, Al Horford, Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, Mike Bibby ... none of them. Then you look at the kids who didn't get taught those things in high school or college and see how long it takes them to learn at this level. VERY FEW high school (or freshman) to NBA players become fundamentally sound and disciplined in their first few years. It took Josh Smith until his 4th year before he really started demonstrating a grasp of the fundamentals and some sort of discipline.

No, it's not a lack of leadership, it's called Woodson had no choice but to play his best players because his bench is flat out awful and he was trying to get us into the playoffs and save his job. He doesn't have the luxury of a great career record or solid subs to use when his young players are screwing up. If you'll notice EVERY TIME one of them does screw something up he is in their ear as they come back to the bench. It would be once thing if he didn't say anything to them but it's clearly obvious that he repeatedly says something to them but it seems to go in one ear and out the other with many of our low iq and younger players.

Then why does Joe hold the ball forever when he sees a double coming?why does Bibby throw one armed heave hail marry passes across the court?why does Josh Childress run down the court on defense before he sees whether a rebound is secured or not?Al Horford turned the ball over every time he touched it at first.I'm pretty sure Acie Law didn't become captain clutch and the top PG in the nation his senior year by running up the court giving it to his SG and running into a corner and standing there the whole possession.I bet Marvin didn't luck into the #2 pick by just jogging into the opposite corner and standing there the whole possession at UNC.I bet Joe wasn't tops in the league in 3 pt. percentage his last year in PHX by having everybody watch him go one on one.Bibby sure is diciplined running up the court and heaving up a 3 pt. shot while he's cold.Talk to Pistons fans about Rodney Stuckey during the regular season.He couldn't run the offense,he couldn't make a jumpshot etc.Same thing with Acie,we all know playing with the pistons is a better situation but your teammates don't cause u to make the plays he did in the playoffs and he continued to get minutes.Acie looked to turn it on the the playoffs too,hitting mid range jumpers and getting to the basket and setting up his teammates.Flip Saunders answer to that is to give the young guy more minutes.Woodson doesn't even give Aciethe same amount of minutes total from games 3-7 that Acie got in game 2,alone.He was no liability at all,BUT BIBBY WAS,but Acie can hit a J in Cassell face and hoit Marvin with a great pass for an open look (that Marvin of course misses) and Woodson pulls him and goes back to Mike 1 for 100 from the field Bibby.

Woodson's a J-O-K-E