Sasha Volkov Brings Up An Interesting Stat...

[Zone034life]

It doesn't matter that it was in Seattle. It's still the ONLY game in which he was able to take 20 shots and surprise surprise he performed quite well.

I'm not acting like JJ didn't play, I'm acting like the Hawks made a conscious effort to not force Marvin to be the 3rd-4th option and they actually looked to pass him the ball early in the shot clock instead of having JJ or Smoove dribble.

I wouldn't use that Seattle game as to much of a reference when it comes to Marvin. It actually proves that his passion and effort are not as they should be consistently throughout the season. I watched that game and didn't think "this is a great performance" but I did think "can he keep this up and play consistently with this passion and excitement on the floor?" The answer was no. I found it to be a big problem that the best performance of his season was the one game he played in front of family and friends. It should have been only one of his memorable moments this season. Instead there are two games that MW supporters always bring up. That seattle game and game 6.

To become a real threat in the NBA you must become CONSISTENT. One game does not show this in fact it shows that he needed emotional motivation to have a breakout performance. Being in the NBA should be enough motivation to have more than 10 three point attempts, become a threat with the ball in his hands not only without it and not dissapear on the floor.

Plain and Simple Marvin needs to step his game up CONSISTENTLY.

There is no more chillz so its no point to argue about him vs MW anymore. Its all on MW now. I'm from Missouri but hope i'm wrong about the kid.

[Joker]

It doesn't matter that it was in Seattle. It's still the ONLY game in which he was able to take 20 shots and surprise surprise he performed quite well.

I'm not acting like JJ didn't play, I'm acting like the Hawks made a conscious effort to not force Marvin to be the 3rd-4th option and they actually looked to pass him the ball early in the shot clock instead of having JJ or Smoove dribble.

I learn this awhile back and I don't know why I stopped that when it comes to Marvin, Diesel becomes more clueless then ever. He's not even a good hater. I know he doesn't like Marvin but some of comments he makes are half full. I'm done bashing Diesel for the time being for these reasons.

His intentions aren't bad, he just doesn't like Marvin and would like him traded so he wouldn't have to be reminded about CP3 or Deron again. Problem is we will forever be tied to passing up on those guys and will never be let down unless Marvin can live up to his potenial or come close to it. We all have the same common goal as fans and that's for the Hawks to with a title. The only way the Hawks can do that is if they put the right pieces together and use the salary cap wisely. We have talent, the Hawks management just have to figure what can we build around and what can we let go.

[Traceman]

I think what you fail to realize is this... If JJ (god forbid) goes down... Marvin goes down with him. PERIOD. The stats show it, when Marvin plays it's shown. Marvin lives off of the assists that JJ gives him and nothing else.

JChillz on the other hand could still score and would probably increase his scoring if JJ goes down.

That's the conversation.

IS JC a clutch FT shooter.. Not this season. However, I notice that you failed to mention that JC was almost 80% FG% in the clutch. Let's think about that. JC is hitting shots at an almost 80% clip!!! While Marvin is hitting FG at a 36% clip in the Clutch. Lord I hope Marvin got to the line 3 times as much as Chillz. Chillz just happens to be a 4th option so his points are really points that he creates for himself. At the rate their going, if Chillz were getting to the ball as much as Marvin, Chillz would be a 25 pt scorer in the clutch.

Where's Trace...

Trace, do the math...

Marvin shot 36% in the clutch... and he scored how many points? 19.8/48?

Chillz shot ~80% in the clutch... and he scored about 13.0/48.

Trace, if CHillz shot as many shots as Marvin were given, how many points would that translate to? Something like 35/48 right?

Sure D. And if Erick Dampier took as many shots as Marvin he would average over 30/48 too. Puh-leaze!

[Traceman]

Thank goodness he scores somehow because he isn't creating his own opportunities be they FGAs or FTAs. That's right. If he can't create a FGA for himself why do you think he's creating FTAs for himself. Someone ELSE is still setting him up. MW's only two offensive strategies are assisted mid-range jumpers and bumbling his way into people. That won't make you anymore than average.

Worst part? When MW isn't busy creating for himself he's still turning the ball over at a higher clip. So MW either bumbles his way into an assisted foul, turns it over, or hits a necessarily assisted, (likely) mid-range (certainly not 3-pt.) jumper at a 37% clip. There is NO OTHER POSSIBILITY FOR MW! None. He is a pony. None of his tricks are good. And all of them rely upon the talent or good will of others to either set him up or bail him out. Why do people insist on defending this? A #2 pick with no sense of urgency, little production, and no passion.

W

I LOVE it! :laughing5: Keep holding on to this nonsense. Assisted FT attempts! Marvin must be a REALLY great guy. Why else would his teammates go out of their way to help him get to the foul line so much? The team must REALLY want Marv to be successful and they must have really disliked Chillz. They sure as sure as heck didn't assist Chillz with getting to the FT line.

[TroyMcClure]

Let me add this...

JC never had a clutch shot blocked. MW had 20% of his clutch shots blocked! OUCH!

W

He never had one blocked because he's too afraid to take a jumper unless there's a Wal-Mart of space. He's afraid to take jumpers because he is physically unable to shoot them with a defender even remotely near. That is far worse than Marvin being unable to drive without being fouled. Marvin can actually shoot a basketball. Not from the distance I would like, but stilll miles away from Childress.

And isn't Marvin deciding to shoot a j, knowing it can go in, a better "creation" of a basket than anything Childress does.

Seriously Walt, Marvin is far down the list of problems for this team. They start with ownership, coaching, PG and C. Then maybe Marvin.

Edited August 5, 2008 by TroyMcClure

[Admin]

I wouldn't use that Seattle game as to much of a reference when it comes to Marvin. It actually proves that his passion and effort are not as they should be consistently throughout the season. I watched that game and didn't think "this is a great performance" but I did think "can he keep this up and play consistently with this passion and excitement on the floor?" The answer was no. I found it to be a big problem that the best performance of his season was the one game he played in front of family and friends. It should have been only one of his memorable moments this season. Instead there are two games that MW supporters always bring up. That seattle game and game 6.

To become a real threat in the NBA you must become CONSISTENT. One game does not show this in fact it shows that he needed emotional motivation to have a breakout performance. Being in the NBA should be enough motivation to have more than 10 three point attempts, become a threat with the ball in his hands not only without it and not dissapear on the floor.

Plain and Simple Marvin needs to step his game up CONSISTENTLY.

There is no more chillz so its no point to argue about him vs MW anymore. Its all on MW now. I'm from Missouri but hope i'm wrong about the kid.

I disagree, people want to make it seem like the only reason that he had such a good game was because it was in front of his people, but the stats show that when Marvin gets up 15+ shots that he is a consistent 20+ ppg scorer and in that Seattle game he had exactly 20 shots, which was his season high, and he went for over 30. He was completely unstoppable that game so I'm not sure how you didn't see it as a great performance, unless your definition of a great performance is 40-50 points.

I'll say this, I sincerely hope that Josh Smith will be a Hawk next year, but if he's not I will look forward to see how much better Marvin is when he consistently gets 15-25 shots per game.

[Zone034life]

I disagree, people want to make it seem like the only reason that he had such a good game was because it was in front of his people, but the stats show that when Marvin gets up 15+ shots that he is a consistent 20+ ppg scorer and in that Seattle game he had exactly 20 shots, which was his season high, and he went for over 30. He was completely unstoppable that game so I'm not sure how you didn't see it as a great performance, unless your definition of a great performance is 40-50 points.

I'll say this, I sincerely hope that Josh Smith will be a Hawk next year, but if he's not I will look forward to see how much better Marvin is when he consistently gets 15-25 shots per game.

Marvins game last season did not warrant him getting 20 attempts per game. He is not aggressive enough nor polished enough offensively to be an option ahead of Smoove or JJ. Woody gave Marvin those attempts because he was at home in front of family and friends. It was was sort of like when Salim didn't get any playing time but in Portland Woody played him. Why? Because he wanted him to perform in his hometown.

Marvin doesn't yet have the handle or control of his game to push Woody's hand to give him more attempts. He is no Al Thortan or Rudy Gay offensively. I would trade him for one of those players yesterday.

I don't get excited about one great performance but CONSISTENCY is what impresses me. One game out of 82 does not. The Hawks could have used him at the end of the season but he wasn't on his game.

[Guest Walter]

I LOVE it! :laughing5: Keep holding on to this nonsense. Assisted FT attempts! Marvin must be a REALLY great guy. Why else would his teammates go out of their way to help him get to the foul line so much? The team must REALLY want Marv to be successful and they must have really disliked Chillz. They sure as sure as heck didn't assist Chillz with getting to the FT line.

Traceman, do you really think that MW created his own foul opportunities when NOT ONCE did he create his own FG opportunities? Get real. If MW can't create a SINGLE SOLITARY FGA himself in the clutch, don't think he was out there creating FT after FT attempt by himself. Makes no sense. Marvin is captain hand-out regardless of how you want to spin it. Either he gets a hand-out for FGA or FTA, the ref bails him out, or he hands it off to the op.

W

[Guest Walter]

He never had one blocked because he's too afraid to take a jumper unless there's a Wal-Mart of space. He's afraid to take jumpers because he is physically unable to shoot them with a defender even remotely near. That is far worse than Marvin being unable to drive without being fouled. Marvin can actually shoot a basketball. Not from the distance I would like, but stilll miles away from Childress.

And isn't Marvin deciding to shoot a j, knowing it can go in, a better "creation" of a basket than anything Childress does.

Seriously Walt, Marvin is far down the list of problems for this team. They start with ownership, coaching, PG and C. Then maybe Marvin.

20% of your shots blocked is embarassing. Come off it.

I think MW's lack of desire and failure to improve and expand his game is a significant problem and since we can't will ourselves a center, PG, or superstar (my believed greatest need for the Hawks) he's the one problem that could be fixable. OK, really MW is broken and not fixable. Never was, but we all would hope so since that WAS our big hope.

W

[exodus]

Traceman, do you really think that MW created his own foul opportunities when NOT ONCE did he create his own FG opportunities? Get real. If MW can't create a SINGLE SOLITARY FGA himself in the clutch, don't think he was out there creating FT after FT attempt by himself. Makes no sense. Marvin is captain hand-out regardless of how you want to spin it. Either he gets a hand-out for FGA or FTA, the ref bails him out, or he hands it off to the op.

W

I have yet to hear you explain how it is even possible to assist someone at getting to the foul line.

If someone passes the ball to Marvin do they send out some kind of telepathic signal to the opposing team forcing them to foul Marvin? Could one of the Hawks actually be one of the X-Men, able to control people's minds?

If that were the case i would think that the Hawks would have won more than 37 games.

[Guest]

This thread is too long and boring for me to continue to read through but I will say this. Clutch stats are a very small sample size. It is 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter and overtime when neither team is ahead by more than 5 points. That is 10% of a game if it qualifies as Clutch, but many times a game does not qualify for Clutch. We are probably looking at 5-7% of available statistics.

[Admin]

Marvins game last season did not warrant him getting 20 attempts per game. He is not aggressive enough nor polished enough offensively to be an option ahead of Smoove or JJ. Woody gave Marvin those attempts because he was at home in front of family and friends. It was was sort of like when Salim didn't get any playing time but in Portland Woody played him. Why? Because he wanted him to perform in his hometown.

Marvin doesn't yet have the handle or control of his game to push Woody's hand to give him more attempts. He is no Al Thortan or Rudy Gay offensively. I would trade him for one of those players yesterday.

I don't get excited about one great performance but CONSISTENCY is what impresses me. One game out of 82 does not. The Hawks could have used him at the end of the season but he wasn't on his game.

What warrants getting more shots then? The stats clearly show that when Marvin gets enough shots he produces because he shoots a high percentage and gets to the line almost as much as anyone, which also helps by getting the other team in foul trouble. How are you defining being polished enough offensively? Because to me being polished partly means not turning the ball over and his TO's are half (1.59) of what Smooves (3.02) are, so why should Smoove get touches ahead of Marvin when Smoove shoots a lower percentage and turns it over more?

I realize that Marvin has a lot to work on but there is no disputing that when Marvin does get the touches that he performs. It's just a shame that he doesn't get more touches in the offense and speaking of that, I know others have commented on this, but if you haven't noticed then start paying attention to how Smoove intentionally ignores Marvin in the offense quite often. If, instead of jacking up a 3 or taking a bad shot Smoove would pass to an open Marvin a little more often it would make us a lot more efficient.

[Traceman]

I have yet to hear you explain how it is even possible to assist someone at getting to the foul line.

If someone passes the ball to Marvin do they send out some kind of telepathic signal to the opposing team forcing them to foul Marvin? Could one of the Hawks actually be one of the X-Men, able to control people's minds?

If that were the case i would think that the Hawks would have won more than 37 games.

He CAN'T explain it. It is ridiculous and he knows it.

[Zone034life]

What warrants getting more shots then? The stats clearly show that when Marvin gets enough shots he produces because he shoots a high percentage and gets to the line more than anyone, which also helps by getting the other team in foul trouble. How are you defining being polished enough offensively? Because to me being polished partly means not turning the ball over and his TO's are half (1.59) of what Smooves (3.02) are, so why should Smoove get touches ahead of Marvin when Smoove shoots a lower percentage and turns it over more?

I realize that Marvin has a lot to work on but there is no disputing that when Marvin does get the touches that he performs. It's just a shame that he doesn't get more touches in the offense and speaking of that, I know others have commented on this, but if you haven't noticed then start paying attention to how Smoove intentionally ignores Marvin in the offense quite often. If, instead of jacking up a 3 or taking a bad shot Smoove would pass to an open Marvin a little more often it would make us a lot more efficient.

So you are proposing Smoove is hating on Marvin? Thats a stretch. The fact is that Marvin isn't aggressive enough on the floor. If Marvin wants more shots he needs to assert himself on the floor just as Smoove has. Smoove takes more risks so he has more TO's. Marvin can't make it to the basket and convert, in traffic like Smoove can. Marvins only hope is that the ref calls a foul many times. He is much more efficient when there is a clear lane to the basket than when someone is defending him.

When Marvin drives to the basket I want to ask the defender, " why did you foul him?" Thats because Marvin is out of control and uncoordinated when he drives and won't hit the shot if not fouled. If you haven't, watch Gay in Memphis or Thortan in LA. These young players are more advanced with the ball in there hands than Marvin. Then maybe you can see what Marvin is lacking more.

If Marvin doesn't want more shot attempts then how can you justify him getting more? If a number two picks wants a bigger role in the offense I think he could get it. Marvins mentality is just as it was at UNC. Let someone else be the leader and I will play off of them. Its just how he is. If he wanted more shots he could easily have a man to man with Woody. Then Woody in turn would tell him his game doesn't suggest that he does right now.

[Traceman]

Traceman, do you really think that MW created his own foul opportunities when NOT ONCE did he create his own FG opportunities? Get real. If MW can't create a SINGLE SOLITARY FGA himself in the clutch, don't think he was out there creating FT after FT attempt by himself. Makes no sense. Marvin is captain hand-out regardless of how you want to spin it. Either he gets a hand-out for FGA or FTA, the ref bails him out, or he hands it off to the op.

W

What makes no sense is your ridiculous argument. As Ex said, please expalin how you assist someone getting to the foul line.

I don't THINK Marv created his own FT opportunities, I KNOW he did because I SAW him do it on NUMEROUS occasions. He caught the ball on the wing, put the ball on the floor and drove to the hoop PLENTY of times during clutch time. More often than not, his drives would result in him getting fouled. Just because he didn't score the FG in ADDITION to getting fouled doesn't mean that he didn't create the FT opportunities that he got.

Second, he DID create plenty of FG OPPORTUNITIES, that is why he shot so many FTs. He was fouled IN THE ACT OF SHOOTING. Hopefully, when he gets stronger, he will convert the FGs IN ADDITION to getting fouled.

[Admin]

So you are proposing Smoove is hating on Marvin? Thats a stretch.

If Marvin doesn't want more shot attempts then how can you justify him getting more?

Then Woody in turn would tell him his game doesn't suggest that he does right now.

I suggest you pay attention to the games and you will see a trend of Smoove looking at an open Marvin and not passing him the ball. I am not the only person here who has seen it on many occasions.

Where do you get that BS about Marvin not wanting more shots? You act like Marvin is Boris Diaw or something and passes up open shots when in fact Marvin is fearless about taking open shots. Just because he has trouble finishing in traffic that doesn't mean anything about him wanting or not wanting shots.

Talk about reaching ... wow.

[Zone034life]

Where do you get that BS about Marvin not wanting more shots? You act like Marvin is Boris Diaw or something and passes up open shots when in fact Marvin is fearless about taking open shots.

Why would he not take open shots when thats his biggest strength? MW taking mid range jumpers is a given. You call waiting on JJ or Smoove to penetrate and shooting a wide open J fearless? You have low standards when it comes to your definition of the word fearless then. Marvin isn't Diaw but they both have the mentality of a role player and not of an aggressive player who wants anything more.

It seems you,Dolfan, wants Marvin to have more FG attempts than Marvin himself. And saying Smoove doesn't pass MW the ball is just an excuse for the kid. He needs to step up and be a man on the floor because his youthful grace period is over.

[Admin]

Why would he not take open shots when thats his biggest strength? MW taking mid range jumpers is a given. You call waiting on JJ or Smoove to penetrate and shooting a wide open J fearless? You have low standards when it comes to your definition of the word fearless then. Marvin isn't Diaw but they both have the mentality of a role player and not of an aggressive player who wants anything more.

It seems you,Dolfan, wants Marvin to have more FG attempts than Marvin himself. And saying Smoove doesn't pass MW the ball is just an excuse for the kid. He needs to step up and be a man on the floor because his youthful grace period is over.

When does he not take open jump shots? I have rarely, if ever, seen Marvin pass up an open jumper. Yes, the FACT that Marvin doesn't pass up open jumpers ala Diaw shows that he is fearless about taking them, rather than being worried about missing? My point was that Smoove will intentionally NOT pass to a wide open Marvin and many here have seen it.

Just the fact that you compared Marvin to Diaw ends any credibility that you had in this discussion. Hate on Marvin all you want but no unbiased person would ever say that Marvin only wants to be a role player.

Feel free to continue arguing about this but I've said my peace and made my point.

[Swish]

I know this is kind of an echo-but how the freak do you assist a free throw???????

If Walter knows the answer to that...he could solve most of our problems.

[tmac13]

When does he not take open jump shots? I have rarely, if ever, seen Marvin pass up an open jumper. Yes, the FACT that Marvin doesn't pass up open jumpers ala Diaw shows that he is fearless about taking them, rather than being worried about missing? My point was that Smoove will intentionally NOT pass to a wide open Marvin and many here have seen it.

Just the fact that you compared Marvin to Diaw ends any credibility that you had in this discussion. Hate on Marvin all you want but no unbiased person would ever say that Marvin only wants to be a role player.

Feel free to continue arguing about this but I've said my peace and made my point.

This thread is crazy. You take a tiny sample size and then try to use it to bash some players and praise others.

Here are facts. Smoove averages 17 a game taking 14 shots per game.

Marvin averages 15 a game taking 11.5 shots a game. Smoove shots a great percentage inside 15 feet and is practically awful outside of 15 feet. Marvin is much more consistant but doesn't taqke the threes and doesn't drive the ball as much as Smoove.. It is obvious to me if you reversed the shot attempts Marvin would outscore Smoove by 3 or 4 points a game.

Smoove is aggressive to the point of being boneheaded at times. He is a better rebounder simply by virtue of the fact he plays near the basket on the defensive end.. Smoove is a supreme shotblocker but is a turnover machine. Marvin takes much better care of the ball than Smoove. Here is where I blame Woody. Why can't he read these same stats and eliminate Smooves long distance shooting and give Marvin 2 more medium range shots per game? The Hawks would be a better offensive team if Woody would simply lay down the law. "Smoove..Take a 3 and you are benched" " Smoove..If you look at a wide open Marvin and shot a wild jumper yo are benched." It should be that simple.