Marvin has done nothing to earn 8 Million per.

[mrhonline]

It's obvious to me that these arguments have gone nowhere in the last four years, so why do we continue to have them?

If you enjoy them, by all means, keep arguing. For me, they ceased to be entertaining years ago. Neither side is willing to budge at this point.

[MaceCase]

Correction, Charlie V. just got 5 years 35 Million.

That accounts for his defense. PLUS he's much better than Marvin on Offense.

There went your argument.

Ariza just got 5 years 33 Million.

And he's 2 times better than Marvin on Defense.

Marvin has not earned 8 per year if these guys are only clocking 7.

Charlie V is not a complete player and is not better on offense unless you consider chucking from the 3 point line as a PF astronomical offense. They are paying 7 mill to a guy who has barely averaged above 25 minutes a game his entire career despite his "prolific" offense. (thats called a clue)

Ariza wanted 8 mil per year and the Lakers laughed him and his agent out of his own hometown that he won a championship with. Why? Is it because they know that just because he's on national TV all the time doesn't now mean all of a sudden he's twice the defender Marv is? Add in that he sucks on offense and you are only proving that the market HAS set Marvin's value.

You've got a younger player that plays both sides of the ball effectively. And yes he has improved every year, you go ahead and say his points, assists and rebound have decreased because those stats are convenient to you. You obviously ignore that his usage rate was also the lowest it's ever been since his rookie year yet he increased his efficiency regardless. Hmm

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=2797&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fplayers%2fhollinger%3fplayerId%3d2797

Go ahead. Take a look. You'll notice he increased his Rebound Rate, his TS%, decreased his TO Ratio, increased his Rebound per 40. His assist rate dropped but if you'll flash over to 82games

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL10.HTM

It's kind of hard having high assist totals when you recieve 40% of your touches with 10 seconds left on the shot clock.

But aye, you and your buddy Hotlanta can keep stroking each other whispering to each other that he's not Chris Paul but the rest of us will accept that he is an above average player deserving of a slightly above average annual salary.

[itsslomotionbaby]

And why is he only a 4th option? if he is so great, why is he only a 4th option on a team that only averages 98PPG? Because his game is clumsy and is mostly only good at scoring when nobody is paying him any attention. Marvin only averages .6 blocks per game. His shot blocking average isn't all that much better than Flip's. Even less better given the 12MPG gap between the two. Nobody ever said Josh was worth 10. But just because he got 10 doesn't mean you keep on overpaying players.

Is there any other team that is even after Marvin Williams?

i declare i reckon the saying is always true that you are only as good as your last shot and i believe that most of this negativaty about marvin came as a result of him being injured the last month of the season. but one reason for our lackluster appearance in the playoffs was marvin not being healthy. and let me refresh you about last season do we seem to remember our wanabe superstar(joe johnson) went nearly 2 1/2 months without a 20 pt. outburst.. just who carried the team, it was flip, bibby and who else lets scratch our head ah marvin williams. josh smith went off with 33 one time.

[unknownjdb]

When I heard the Lakers pulled their offer to Lamar Odom off the table I got to thinking - who would be better to have, Marvin or Lamar?

Well, I did some comparisons. They both came into the league at the same age and at this stage in their careers they look very similar stat-wise. Lamar had injury problems in his third and fourth year, but the numbers are pretty close. The stats that stood out to me first was Marvin's greater FG%, 3PG%, and FT%. The second thing that stood out was what Lamar did in his fifth season. Sure it was with a new ball club in a different conference but his numbers dramatically increased.

I believe that Marvin could quite possibly be a better player than Lamar Odom. Not necessarily right now, but it would be a mistake not to resign him at a decent price (i.e. >$8 million per). I would probably offer around the same to Marvin as the Lakers did to Lamar.

[Diesel]

Uhhh 13 and 5? Marvin averaged 14 and 6 last year. As the 4th option. Josh Smith averaged 15.5 and 7 as the 2nd/3rd option and yet I'm sure you think he's worth 10 million right? So what is it that makes him worth it, is it the extra 1.5 points, the extra rebound, or extra block that he averages? And all while playing a position that makes scoring, rebounding, and blocking shots easier. Yeah and Marvin's not worth 8 million. Your opinion on that is laughable.

The bottom line is that over the previous 5 years, when Josh Smith has stepped out on the floor, he has made a difference. Weather it was being our transition defense (how many times has he stopped a man on the way to the dunk) or weather it is his improving offense (who showed up in the playoffs?). Marvin has not been anything. You guys blubber over Marvin shooting 35% from 3 like a mother blubbering over her baby saying something that sounds like mama. The impact that Marvin makes on the court is NOT SEEN. Especially in the 2nd half of games. He is Mr. Invisible in the 4th. All that Marvin has going for him is a whole lot of excuses from the Hawks fans who are still waiting on some age activated talent to kick in.

Here's the fact of the matter.

Among Sfs in the East... 3pt%...

Marvin is 11th out of 14th.

BTW... Mo Evans is 5th out of 14th.

Marvin is not even the best three point shooting Sf on this team.

Marvin vs. Mo....

Mo = 22 minutes. = 98 three pointers Made.

Marvin = 34 minutes = 55 three pointers Made.

Marvin's improvement is just a Joke. He's not even close to being as effective as his BU who plays far less minutes.

[Diesel]

It's obvious to me that these arguments have gone nowhere in the last four years, so why do we continue to have them?

If you enjoy them, by all means, keep arguing. For me, they ceased to be entertaining years ago. Neither side is willing to budge at this point.

If you haven't noticed, this is a crucial time for the franchise. We're talking about handing a guy who has not earned 8 million per an 8 million per salary for the next 5. On top of that, he's had an injury that you can consider serious and chronic.

MrH, many of us want to see the Hawk do more than teams of the past have done. The reason we argue so vehemently is that we've been down this road before. The road of overpaying a guy who may never live up to his potential. Those have been franchise killing contracts. Where do I start: Koncak. Chrissy Crawford. Kenny Norman. Blair Rasmussen. Alan Henderson. Speedy Claxton. All of these guys were signed to big contracts and you can see how these big contracts stopped us from being competitive when we needed to be. Weather it was being competitive in the FA market or on the court, it has had an adverse effect on our team. Right now, we're in the same position with Marvin. The reason I asked the question is because if Marvin hasn't earned the 8 Million, it is a mistake to pay him over the next 5 in hopes that he will somehow be able to earn it. Especially in his condition.

[Diesel]

Charlie V is not a complete player and is not better on offense unless you consider chucking from the 3 point line as a PF astronomical offense. They are paying 7 mill to a guy who has barely averaged above 25 minutes a game his entire career despite his "prolific" offense. (thats called a clue)

If Charlie were a complete player, he'd be making Granger Money. Moreover, Marvin is definitely not complete. The difference is that Charlie has shown that he can lead a team and has the desire to be "THE GUY". That is a thought that is 100% foriegn to Marvin. Marvin is just another Sf role player who gets minutes like he's a star. He doesn't impact the game at all and if not for our real impact players, Marvin would never get an open look.

Ariza wanted 8 mil per year and the Lakers laughed him and his agent out of his own hometown that he won a championship with. Why? Is it because they know that just because he's on national TV all the time doesn't now mean all of a sudden he's twice the defender Marv is? Add in that he sucks on offense and you are only proving that the market HAS set Marvin's value.

What does that have to do with Marvin. Ariza is still 2 times the defender. Ariza stepped up in the playoffs. What did Marvin do in the playoffs? Ask Lebron for his autograph?

You've got a younger player that plays both sides of the ball effectively. And yes he has improved every year, you go ahead and say his points, assists and rebound have decreased because those stats are convenient to you.

I'm laughing. Points, assists, and Rebounds are the league's standards not just mine. Everybody in the League knows what it means to be a 20/10 guy. If ever you get into a discussion about how good a player is in the league, you won't be talking about 3 point % s that fall below 40%. Your discussion will deal with Points, Rebounds, and Assists and FTA. The fact that Marvin's Points, Rebounds, and FTAs all fell means that his impact decreased. That's NOT improving.

[Diesel]

i declare i reckon the saying is always true that you are only as good as your last shot and i believe that most of this negativaty about marvin came as a result of him being injured the last month of the season. but one reason for our lackluster appearance in the playoffs was marvin not being healthy. and let me refresh you about last season do we seem to remember our wanabe superstar(joe johnson) went nearly 2 1/2 months without a 20 pt. outburst.. just who carried the team, it was flip, bibby and who else lets scratch our head ah marvin williams. josh smith went off with 33 one time.

Here's a thought...

Has Marvin EVER Carried this team?

I mean, I see your attack on Joe, but Joe has carried this team more times than I can remember. However, I only remember one game where Marvin carried this team in the last 4 years. It was 2 years ago, the last time we played in Seattle. In front of his mama.. he carried the team. After that, NOTHING.

[exodus]

Who had the highest TS% among all the non-centers on the team? Who got to the foul line more often per shot attempt than anyone on the team?

That's right it's Marvin.

Marvin's Points, Rebounds, and FTAs all fell means that his impact decreased. That's NOT improving.

Marvin's rebounding was easily the best it has ever been this past season. In fact he only got .9 fewer rebounds than Smith.

Of course Marvin's free throw attempts were down since he played far fewer games and took fewer shots per game when he was playing. Duh

That world inside Diesels head must be a very interesting place but it has no resemblence to reality.

[ShooterMcGavin]

Here's a thought...

Has Marvin EVER Carried this team?

Here's an even simpler thought:

Do you need to "carry a team" to earn around the average salary for an NBA starter?

Is Marvin at least as good as an average NBA starter? At 23 years old, no less?

[exodus]

Here's a thought...

Has Marvin EVER Carried this team?

I mean, I see your attack on Joe, but Joe has carried this team more times than I can remember. However, I only remember one game where Marvin carried this team in the last 4 years. It was 2 years ago, the last time we played in Seattle. In front of his mama.. he carried the team. After that, NOTHING.

I guess you missed the game in Denver this season. You also must not have seen the games JJ missed. You may want to try to watch more games

so you can at least have a clue what you are talking about.

[Diesel]

Who had the highest TS% among all the non-centers on the team? Who got to the foul line more often per shot attempt than anyone on the team?

That's right it's Marvin.

None of those stats mean anything if it doesn't translate to points. Give me a very unefficient player who can score 20 points over Marvin's efficient 14. Give me a guy who wants the ball in his hands when the game is on the line as oppose to marvin's "Let the other guy do it" attitude. In talking about IMPACT, Marvin doesn't make one.

Here's an even simpler thought:

Do you need to "carry a team" to earn around the average salary for an NBA starter?

Is Marvin at least as good as an average NBA starter? At 23 years old, no less?

Average Sf starter salary is not 8 million per. when you don't do good things. Get the comps. Compare what is done on the court to salary. You're suggesting overpaying Marvin.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Diesel

[mrhonline]

None of those stats mean anything if it doesn't translate to points. Give me a very unefficient player who can score 20 points over Marvin's efficient 14.

This just amplifies my point.

If this is truly how you feel, then common ground many of us will never find with you. We all need to agree to disagree and move on.

[MaceCase]

If Charlie were a complete player, he'd be making Granger Money. Moreover, Marvin is definitely not complete. The difference is that Charlie has shown that he can lead a team and has the desire to be "THE GUY". That is a thought that is 100% foriegn to Marvin. Marvin is just another Sf role player who gets minutes like he's a star. He doesn't impact the game at all and if not for our real impact players, Marvin would never get an open look.

Charlie V was the "Guy" so much they wouldn't even let him stay on the floor for extended minutes (or extend him a QO for that matter) as he leaves his second team in his short NBA career.

What does that have to do with Marvin. Ariza is still 2 times the defender. Ariza stepped up in the playoffs. What did Marvin do in the playoffs? Ask Lebron for his autograph?

Ariza's defense was so valued during the playoffs (where Marvin was hurt) that the team didn't bring him back.

I'm laughing. Points, assists, and Rebounds are the league's standards not just mine. Everybody in the League knows what it means to be a 20/10 guy. If ever you get into a discussion about how good a player is in the league, you won't be talking about 3 point % s that fall below 40%. Your discussion will deal with Points, Rebounds, and Assists and FTA. The fact that Marvin's Points, Rebounds, and FTAs all fell means that his impact decreased. That's NOT improving.

Yea any idiot reading basic boxscores will also tell you Zach Randolph is just as good a player as Dwight Howard because they both average 20 and 10. But oh yea scoring and rebounding more with less possesions thats not an indication of anything. I guess a guy scoring 20 points on 20 shots is just as good as a guy scoring 20 points on 10 shots because in Retardville they are both 20 point scorers. That may work on people that don't know basketball, oh wait.........Nuff' said.

[Diesel]

This just amplifies my point.

If this is truly how you feel, then common ground many of us will never find with you. We all need to agree to disagree and move on.

There's some hyperboyle there... However, None of these great stats that people call out for Marvin mean anything in the final equation. You tell me he has a high TS% and a better 3pt FG%. However, his ppg and fta per game are down from last year.

So now, you've just describe a guy who rarely shoots and is sitting on the 3 point line waiting for somebody to pass him the ball.

Marvin is the most needy plyer we have. He cannot create for himself.

77% of his Jumpers and 78% of his dunks were assisted...according to 82 games.

That says that unless somebody gets him the ball in his spot, he doesn't score. That's 72% of his scoring!?!

So again. Wide open Marvin. Waiting from a pass from Joe or Bibby.

Here's the worst part.

Mo Evans shot a better percent than Marvin from outside and he does the same exact thing.

The point is that Mo could easily do what Marvin does... for 1.5 Million.

[EazyRoc]

This just amplifies my point.

If this is truly how you feel, then common ground many of us will never find with you. We all need to agree to disagree and move on.

The 8 million dollar question is why people waste the precious energy in their fingers trying to prove to Diesel that Marvin is a good player. It's obvious by his misguided and inane statements that there is no bringing him back from the dark side.

Edited July 15, 2009 by EazyRoc

[exodus]

None of those stats mean anything if it doesn't translate to points. Give me a very unefficient player who can score 20 points over Marvin's efficient 14. Give me a guy who wants the ball in his hands when the game is on the line as oppose to marvin's "Let the other guy do it" attitude. In talking about IMPACT, Marvin doesn't make one.

That is a pretty strange argument coming from Childress' biggest fan. When did Childress ever average 14 ppg? When did he EVER take over a game?

Marvin was the one who dropped 31 in Denver when Smith and Bibby were out. Marvin is the first Hawk since Steve Smith to get to the line 20 times a game. Childress could never do anything like that.

I see Agendaman is back in full force. So have you got a new costume that matches the Hawks new colors?

[thefloydian]

Marvin is the most needy plyer we have. He cannot create for himself.

Wrong.

[exodus]

There's some hyperboyle there... However, None of these great stats that people call out for Marvin mean anything in the final equation. You tell me he has a high TS% and a better 3pt FG%. However, his ppg and fta per game are down from last year.

So now, you've just describe a guy who rarely shoots and is sitting on the 3 point line waiting for somebody to pass him the ball.

Marvin is the most needy plyer we have. He cannot create for himself.

77% of his Jumpers and 78% of his dunks were assisted...according to 82 games.

That says that unless somebody gets him the ball in his spot, he doesn't score. That's 72% of his scoring!?!

So again. Wide open Marvin. Waiting from a pass from Joe or Bibby.

Here's the worst part.

Mo Evans shot a better percent than Marvin from outside and he does the same exact thing.

The point is that Mo could easily do what Marvin does... for 1.5 Million.

Yet again you ignore the reality that Marvin got to the foul line more often per shot attempt than anyone on the team. Your "leave it alone and maybe it will go away"

strategy isn't working with regards to the facts.

[jy23]

Solo over Marv? Is this a joke? :doh:

It has 2 be! Thats just ridiculous!