Marvin has done nothing to earn 8 Million per.

[Diesel]

Okay let's say for arguments sake that we sign Marvin to the 1 year QO, he plays it out, and we decide to sign him next year. Do you think that we're all of the sudden going to magically be able to use that 8 million to bring in another FA? Sorry it doesn't work that way. Do you know why the good teams are always able to make trades for quality players? Because they have contracts that they can trade to bring in other players and they are always above the cap. If we let Marvin go then we're still up against the cap but now we have no money to bring in another player. That would be absolutely foolish.

First of all, if we sign Marvin to a 1 year QO, the important thing to do after that is actually watch him play. DOl, as your name suggests, you're just about doling out money with no rhyme or reason. If we see tht marvin really does fit, really has grown, and really does make us better, then we can talk extension. However, if we see that Marvin is better suited as a bench player then before Feb, we need to start to look and see what teams would take him. If we go into the 2010 FAcy period with Marvin, we have lots of options.... Mainly SNT.

However, if we just give him 8 mill a year for 5 years and let say he doesn't do anything. Let's say he gives us a 13/5.5 effort over 35 mpg and we can't point to one time in the year when he carried us. Or worse. What if he gets Injured yet again? What then? He could be Speedy all over again for us. The point is that the purpose of the QO is to give the team one more chance to take a good look at a player who may not be worth the money that they are asking for. I think this is the perfect fit for us in this situation.

[Diesel]

He disappears when his team needs him most (esp. after halftime) - go back and look at the games when he hit HUGE 4th quarter shots

You know a lot has been made about Marvin's Huge 4th quarter shots. However, the truth is that he has only hit 2 of those. One against the Celtics... Pierce came back and beat us with a reply. The other against the Wizards. In a game where we had neither Smoove nor Horf.

[NowYouKnow]

This thread is absurd.

Marvin Williams, prior to the Crawford trade, was the only player on this team besides Joe who wasn't one dimensional on offense. He's got a good mid range jumper and his 3 point improvement has been well noted on here and he's a very good on the ball defender, defending the hardest position on the floor to defend.

The sheer and utter stupidity of people who criticize Marvin for not being assertive enough on the offensive end amazes me. Like Dolfan pointed out, when has the coaching staff asked or expected Marvin to be anything other than the fourth option on the floor? Name me one player in the history of basketball who has taken things into their own hands, completely disregarding the system his team runs, and has been successful.

Joe has missed two games the last two seasons (that mattered, the last game of the '09 season doesn't count). Marvin scored 23 and 29 points in those two games and had 14 and 20 free throw attempts in those two games. That sounds pretty assertive to me. So what does that say? It says that it's the coaching staff's fault for not trying to take advantage of what its players do well and just running the Iso Joe into the ground. This isn't a new revelation.

the only legit point Diesel almost made was this: the only reason for concern is his prevalent injury history. If you think he's injury prone, then you have to be cautious. Otherwise, not signing him to a long term deal is a mistake, point blank period.

[ShooterMcGavin]

What did you quote?

Did you quote the whole thought or did you quote half of what I said and tried to make some form of Joke from a half quote?

I went back and was unable to find a coherent thought in that post, which is why I was unable to fully quote said thought.

You're being so Busch league. Where did you come from the ESPN boards? R U trying to make a name for yourself by using half quotes? IF that's the case, you need to go back to the kiddie pool and learn how to argue a point correctly. Nobody here has time to hold your hand while you figure out that there's a right way and a wrong way to quote somebody. You just don't stop midthought.

I argued my point very clearly. I pointed out that 8 million per is around the average salary for an NBA starter. Expecting extraordinary performance is hardly fair. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

[Diesel]

I know this isn't the thread to start discussing, but the cap dropping next year is highly debatable right now. I have to side with he player's union, it may be the case that it drops but there is no way in hell in drops 5% and unlikely it drops even 2.5%. So the cap drop is overestimated grossly because Stern wants to side with the owners for multiple reasons.

Don't overestimate the cost of overpaying either. While its true overpaying can be detrimental, I don't think Marvin is a gross overpaying like a Jerome James contract or a Brian Cardinal contract. Its also not impossible to move the contract if it becomes an albatross, we would just have to package a pick with it or another asset. Its bad, but I don't think its a franchise crippling move.

I am expecting Marvin to take the QO, its probably around the price range he was expecting to have a starting salary at and taking to frees him up down the road. Only Sund overpaying him will avoid the QO in my opinion.

When have the owners not gotten their way?

From Dress Codes to the last CBA, the owners ALWAYS gets it's way. The cap will drop probably 7 Million dollars. But like you said, that's debateable. I'm just nothing that the "memo" has gone out to expect a cap drop and to act accordingly.

Second.

8 Million dollars. IF he turns out to have a bad back and cannot play to the leveel he was at at the beginning of this season... 8 Million for the next 5 is extremely hard to eat. We ate Speedy's 5.5. We ate Hendu's 6.5 We at Crawford's 3.3. We ate Koncaks 2.5. How difficult were those? Imagine 8?

Did Eddy Curry even ask for 8?

[AHF]

Smith, Bibby, Murry, and Joe get to the line more than Marvin... IN THE REAL WORLD

* * * * * * *

If you didn't notice, I was using per 36 mpg stats... because mpg matters. That takes care of Flip. I just miswrote when I put in Bibby.

Can you clarify this post for me because I don't follow it.

Per 36:

Josh Smith 12.6 FGA, 5.3 FTA

Marvin Williams 10.7 FGA, 4.7 FTA

Flip Murray 14.5 FGA, 4.2 FTA

Joe Johnson 16.2 FGA, 4.2 FTA

(I deleted Bibby's 2.2 FTA/36 from the list because that was a typo in the original post)

That list looks like Marvin is 2nd in FTA/36. I can't imagine how you are arguing that Flip and Joe got to the line better in the real world than Marvin based on per 36 mpg stats.

Edited July 16, 2009 by AHF

[jy23]

This thread is absurd.

Marvin Williams, prior to the Crawford trade, was the only player on this team besides Joe who wasn't one dimensional on offense. He's got a good mid range jumper and his 3 point improvement has been well noted on here and he's a very good on the ball defender, defending the hardest position on the floor to defend.

The sheer and utter stupidity of people who criticize Marvin for not being assertive enough on the offensive end amazes me. Like Dolfan pointed out, when has the coaching staff asked or expected Marvin to be anything other than the fourth option on the floor? Name me one player in the history of basketball who has taken things into their own hands, completely disregarding the system his team runs, and has been successful.

Joe has missed two games the last two seasons (that mattered, the last game of the '09 season doesn't count). Marvin scored 23 and 29 points in those two games and had 14 and 20 free throw attempts in those two games. That sounds pretty assertive to me. So what does that say? It says that it's the coaching staff's fault for not trying to take advantage of what its players do well and just running the Iso Joe into the ground. This isn't a new revelation.

the only legit point Diesel almost made was this: the only reason for concern is his prevalent injury history. If you think he's injury prone, then you have to be cautious. Otherwise, not signing him to a long term deal is a mistake, point blank period.

AGREED!!!! Marvin is our only starter besides joe that isn't one dimensional, if we got rid of marvin we would def be nothing but iso joe all day everyday. Hopefully woody opens the flooor up a lil more, its a long shot but hey......it could happen, and if he does we're losing the only other player on the floor who can somewhat create with the ball. I don't want to hear about most of his shots being assisted because the way our offense is ran thats the ONLY way he will get shots. Joe and bibby completely dominate the ball and marv gets it in positions where he has no choice but to put it up. Open up the offense and I think we'll see a better marvin, at least on offense.

[thefloydian]

Salary for Starting Small Forwards Currently Under Contract in the NBA(from shamsports.com):

I labeled the players who are still on their rookie contracts and noted if I didn't know who the starter was or if they had one.

Boston - Pierce: $19,795,712

Charlotte - Not sure who their starting SF is. Wallace: $9,500,000, Diaw: $9,000,000, Bell: $5,250,000

Chicago - Deng: $10,365,000

Cleveland - Lebron: $15,779,912

Dallas - Howard: $10,890,000

Denver: Anthony: $15,779,912

Detroit: Prince: $10,324,380

Golden State - Jackson: $7,650,000

Houston - Battier: $6,864,200

Indiana - Granger: $9,930,500

Clippers - Thornton: $1,900,200 (Rookie Deal)

Lakers - Artest: Not listed. I think it's around the MLE. Whatever it is it's below his market value because he wants a ring. They offered Odom 9 mil/year.

Memphis - Gay: $3,280,997 (Rookie Deal), Q-Rich is making $8,700,000

Miami - Beasley: $4,638,600 (Rookie Deal)

Milwaukee - I don't know who their starter is or if they have one. Bruce Bowen has $4,100,000 non-guaranteed.

Minnesota - Same as above. Corey Brewer is making $2,916,120 on a rookie deal.

New Jersey - Yi? : $3,194,400 (Rookie Deal)

New Orleans: Peja: $13,392,000

New York - Chandler?: $1,255,440 (Rookie Deal)

Oklahoma - Durant: $4,796,880 (Rookie Deal)

Orlando - Lewis: $18,010,791

Philadelphia - Young?: $2,105,400 (Rookie Deal)

Phoenix - None currently unless Richardson counts. I don't think he does, but his salary is $13,333,332 if anyone cares.

Portland - Outlaw?: $3,600,000 (I think this is a rookie deal but maybe not. Is he even the starter?)

Sacramento - Nocioni?: $7,500,000

San Antonio - Jefferson: $14,200,000

Toronto - Turkoglu: Around $10,000,000

Utah - Kirilenko: $16,452,000

Washington - Butler: $10,030,970

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this stuff or tell me things I didn't know.

Edited July 17, 2009 by thefloydian

[MaceCase]

Salary for Starting Small Forwards Currently Under Contract in the NBA(from shamsports.com):

I labeled the players who are still on their rookie contracts and noted if I didn't know who the starter was or if they had one.

Boston - Pierce: $19,795,712

Charlotte - Not sure who their starting SF is. Wallace: $9,500,000, Diaw: $9,000,000, Bell: $5,250,000

Chicago - Deng: $10,365,000

Cleveland - Lebron: $15,779,912

Dallas - Howard: $10,890,000

Denver: Anthony: $15,779,912

Detroit: Prince: $10,324,380

Golden State - Jackson: $7,650,000

Houston - Battier: $6,864,200

Indiana - Granger: $9,930,500

Clippers - Thornton: $1,900,200 (Rookie Deal)

Lakers - Artest: Not listed. I think it's around the MLE. Whatever it is it's below his market value because he wants a ring. They offered Odom 9 mil/year.

Memphis - Gay: $3,280,997 (Rookie Deal), Q-Rich is making $8,700,000

Miami - Beasley: $4,638,600 (Rookie Deal)

Milwaukee - I don't know who their starter is or if they have one. Bruce Bowen has $4,100,000 non-guaranteed.

Minnesota - Same as above. Corey Brewer is making $2,916,120 on a rookie deal.

New Jersey - Yi? : $3,194,400 (Rookie Deal)

New Orleans: Peja: $13,392,000

New York - Chandler?: $1,255,440 (Rookie Deal)

Oklahoma - Durant: $4,796,880 (Rookie Deal)

Orlando - Lewis: $18,010,791

Philadelphia - Young?: $2,105,400 (Rookie Deal)

Phoenix - None currently unless Richardson counts. I don't think he does, but his salary is $13,333,332 if anyone cares.

Portland - Outlaw?: $3,600,000 (I think this is a rookie deal but maybe not. Is he even the starter?)

Sacramento - Nocioni?: $7,500,000

San Antonio - Jefferson: $14,200,000

Toronto - Turkoglu: Around $10,000,000

Utah - Kirilenko: $16,452,000

Washington - Butler: $10,030,970

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this stuff or tell me things I didn't know.

With out getting into specifics on the math but the rough average of all those starting SFs salaries would be 8 million..........

[thefloydian]

With out getting into specifics on the math but the rough average of all those starting SFs salaries would be 8 million..........

Pretty much everyone who isn't playing on a rookie deal either makes over 8 mil or isn't as good as Marvin.

Edited July 17, 2009 by thefloydian

[Plainview1981]

This thread is absurd.

Marvin Williams, prior to the Crawford trade, was the only player on this team besides Joe who wasn't one dimensional on offense. He's got a good mid range jumper and his 3 point improvement has been well noted on here and he's a very good on the ball defender, defending the hardest position on the floor to defend.

The sheer and utter stupidity of people who criticize Marvin for not being assertive enough on the offensive end amazes me. Like Dolfan pointed out, when has the coaching staff asked or expected Marvin to be anything other than the fourth option on the floor? Name me one player in the history of basketball who has taken things into their own hands, completely disregarding the system his team runs, and has been successful.

Joe has missed two games the last two seasons (that mattered, the last game of the '09 season doesn't count). Marvin scored 23 and 29 points in those two games and had 14 and 20 free throw attempts in those two games. That sounds pretty assertive to me. So what does that say? It says that it's the coaching staff's fault for not trying to take advantage of what its players do well and just running the Iso Joe into the ground. This isn't a new revelation.

the only legit point Diesel almost made was this: the only reason for concern is his prevalent injury history. If you think he's injury prone, then you have to be cautious. Otherwise, not signing him to a long term deal is a mistake, point blank period.

He shot 5-15 in one of those two games against Minnesota I think it was. Awesome.

I guess people will find out when this team is capped out and can't climb any higher than 4th or 5th seed. Gotta learn the hard way I guess.

It's funny... Marvin is worth so much... yet, the team had a higher winning percentage without him... Didn't suffer with him out of the line up. Teams aren't tripping over themselves to offer Marvin an offer sheet. I knoe I know..... Other teams are just afraid a capped out team with poor ownership will match. Wait... Didn't Portland throw a contract at Milsap anyway?

It doesn't seem many outside of this board see Marvin as a big piece with value. Nobody outside of this board even seems to have faith in Marvin. Why isn't he rising up on the option chart? Why has he been the 4th or 5th option every year of his career and STILL will be in year 5? If Marvin has the talent to get it done, how come he's not moving up the ladder? ESP when the teams second league scorer is an erratic jump shooter?

What year does the great Marvin Williams produce these numbers that people here think he is capable of?

Edited July 17, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[Diesel]

Pretty much everyone who isn't playing on a rookie deal either makes over 8 mil or isn't as good as Marvin.

Ask yourself these few questions:

1. Where does Marvin fall in terms of his ability (not potential)?

2. Is the player that you're comparing him to OVERPAID?

Obviously, Marvin is no Lebron or Anthony or Pierce.

Marvin may fall somewhere around Prince, Jackson, and Battier in terms of ability. That being the case and Prince being overpaid, yet better than Marvin, I say Marvin is about 7 million dollar player. Just give him the 1 year QO and let's evaluate him after that.

[Diesel]

Can you clarify this post for me because I don't follow it.

Per 36:

Josh Smith 12.6 FGA, 5.3 FTA

Marvin Williams 10.7 FGA, 4.7 FTA

Flip Murray 14.5 FGA, 4.2 FTA

Joe Johnson 16.2 FGA, 4.2 FTA

(I deleted Bibby's 2.2 FTA/36 from the list because that was a typo in the original post)

That list looks like Marvin is 2nd in FTA/36. I can't imagine how you are arguing that Flip and Joe got to the line better in the real world than Marvin based on per 36 mpg stats.

The truth is I made an error. I just didn't see Marvin being aggressive in games this past year. I think with his newfound 35% shooting from outside, he's more content to just sit outside and shoot threes.

[thefloydian]

The truth is I made an error. I just didn't see Marvin being aggressive in games this past year. I think with his newfound 35% shooting from outside, he's more content to just sit outside and shoot threes.

You said the average was less than 8 mil. Now there are these qualifications. Not surprising. By that same logic we could argue that some of those guys are underpaid.

Edited July 17, 2009 by thefloydian

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And of those players listed, these guys can also effectively play the 4:

- LeBron ( CLE )

- Lewis ( ORL )

- Anthony ( DEN )

- G. Wallace ( CHA )

- Diaw ( CHA )

- Kirilenko ( UTH )

- Odom ( LAL )

- Artest ( HOU/LAL )

- Marion ( TOR/DAL )

- Beasley ( MIA )

and Marvin ( ATL )

And the biggest skewing of the truth being told on this board, is about the team supposedly playing better without Marvin. The Hawks at one point last year were 22 - 11. During that time, it was a relatively healthy starting group that were winning games for us.

When the Hawks started to play below .500 basketball, it was NOT because of Marvin's play. January and Feburary saw us play a ton of road games that we didn't win, the Hawks achille's heel of course.

If memory serves me correct, that was the time in which JJ really started to play erratic, Horford wasn't 100%, and Smoove started having MAJOR problems from the FT line.

But other than his 3 point percantage coming back to earth, Marvin's numbers stayed consistent across the board.

Even in his worst month of basketball ( Feburary ), in which he shot 41% FG, he still managed to average more ppg that month ( 15 ppg ), than in any month of the season. We even lost 2 games in that month in which Marvin had damn good games.

The win streak in March coincided with all of those consecutive home games we had in a row, just like it did in December. People like to cite those games as proof that we don't need Marvin. I contend that if Marvin played during that stretch, and was healthy, we'd still win the majority of those home games. But even during that stretch, we were sill having problems winning on the road.

The playoffs pretty much proved that we need Marvin. As great as Flip was from Jan - March, he started to dramatically tail off in April, and flat out disappeared in the Playoffs ( which is probably the reason why he is no longer here ). Zaza had a few good games and one great game, but was outmatched most of the playoffs. Evans, while a decent player, shouldn't be starting on the Hawks.

And the fact that we still don't have a center good enough to cause a move of Horford to PF and Smith to SF, means that we still need length at our wing positions to compensate for the lack of center.

Marvin, right now, is a decent and reliable starter in the NBA. With a guy like Bargnani getting 10 million a year, Marvin is worth 7 - 8 million per year easily. Decent, but not star guys, usually get paid that money.

The true point not being talked about in this thread, is that the people that don't want to give Marvin 8 million, would probably be just as vocal if we were giving him 7 million.

The truth is that they simply wouldn't approve of any number given to Marvin, because they want him gone . . . period.

[thefloydian]

With a guy like Bargnani getting 10 million a year, Marvin is worth 7 - 8 million per year easily. Decent, but not star guys, usually get paid that money.

Forgot about that. Thanks.

[exodus]

, I say Marvin is about 7 million dollar player. Just give him the 1 year QO and let's evaluate him after that.

So that extra $1 million/yr is what is what makes the deal a cap killer? OK

[MaceCase]

He shot 5-15 in one of those two games against Minnesota I think it was. Awesome.

I guess people will find out when this team is capped out and can't climb any higher than 4th or 5th seed. Gotta learn the hard way I guess.

It's funny... Marvin is worth so much... yet, the team had a higher winning percentage without him... Didn't suffer with him out of the line up. Teams aren't tripping over themselves to offer Marvin an offer sheet. I knoe I know..... Other teams are just afraid a capped out team with poor ownership will match. Wait... Didn't Portland throw a contract at Milsap anyway?

It doesn't seem many outside of this board see Marvin as a big piece with value. Nobody outside of this board even seems to have faith in Marvin. Why isn't he rising up on the option chart? Why has he been the 4th or 5th option every year of his career and STILL will be in year 5? If Marvin has the talent to get it done, how come he's not moving up the ladder? ESP when the teams second league scorer is an erratic jump shooter?

What year does the great Marvin Williams produce these numbers that people here think he is capable of?

Yea Portland just threw a 4 year deal at an average of 8 million per year (starts at 10 million) at a PF that averaged 13ppg and 8rpg last year on a division rival that happens to be already over the luxury tax and in a small market.....and they still matched. It's not boding well for that particular argument.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

@ Hotlanta . . . Marvin was 6 - 13 FG and 11 - 14 FT in that Minnesota game.

Plus he grabbed 10 rebounds.

[NineOhTheRino]

So that extra $1 million/yr is what is what makes the deal a cap killer? OK

funny how $5 million dollars is chump change when it's not your money.