Marvin = Capable of more

[Diesel]

Again you need to understand that "defined roles" and "plays" are 2 separate things. Plays cannot exist without defined roles but defined roles can certainly exist without plays. Do you think that it's just coincidence that the players start out in pretty much the same spot each and every time down the court?

Court spacing is not a true function or role.

For instance, Josh Smith starts off top of the key and Horf starts off High post.

The only obvious reason you would do that is to offer Joe or Bibby a pick. Well, Joe Johnson never takes a pick and Bibby might play pick and role with Horf. However, the problem is that we have nobody down low for rebounding on the offensive end. Now, if we were to talk Function, then we lack rebounding because of our spacing. Well, I contend that our spacing is that way simply because of the defensive purpose and not the offensive purpose. Let me explain.

In general, in basketball, the PG stays close to the top of the key so that he can run the offense and be first back on defense. Woody plays Smoove at the top of the key in order to run down any transition break away on a turnover. So Smoove being where he is is more for defense than offense being that Joe doesn't use picks. Bibby does linger around the three point line because he's old and he doesn't drive anymore. When you watch our offense, it's easy to see that aside from a few people, we're running out own thing out there. Every player is allowed to do whatever they feel comfortable doing as long as they can get in position to do their defensive job:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmp5GPBCMvA

Pause it at 2:29...

When you look at our setup... this is exactly what I'm talking about. Smoove at the 3, Zaza at the high post. Nobody inside. Smoove and Evans switch side like a UCLA 1:4 offensive switch. However, there's nothing going inside. We have no offensive scheme. Just a bunch of guys doing stuff.

[MaceCase]

I didn't change the argument. I showed you how those Jumpshooters were WORLDS better than Marvin. Period. I used a common standard (three point shooting) to prove my point.

If I show you that it's an insult for Marvin to be categorized with Ray Allen, Wally Z, Peja, and some of the best 3 pt shooters in the game... how is that changing the subject. These guys are assisted because as talented standstill three point shooters it's their JOB to hit the wide open shot. However, Marvin is not a talented 3 pt shooter. Until this season, Marvin was a laughingstock at the 3 pt line. So don't tell me that this is some Woody made Masterplan to have Marvin out on the 3 point line shooting threes. Woody would be a FOOL to gameplan a 10% 3 pt shooter to be his 3 pt specialist.

Fred Astaire this is getting funnier every moment. So Marvin ended the 2007-2008 as the best long 2 point jumpshooter in the NBA by percentage and was amongst the top 5 of everybody in attempts from that distance, being mentioned with such names as Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady. Don't believe me? http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=2797&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fplayers%2fhollinger%3fplayerId%3d2797

He was mentioned in league with other great midrange jumpshooters such as Rip Hamilton and Sam Cassel as well seeing as almost half of his shot attempts were long 2point jumpshots. So I don't know where he got the crazy idea to spend a whole summer extending his range out to 3 point land, hell I don't have any idea where he got the idea to have almost half of his shot attempts come from the midrange to begin with, it's not like he's known as some sort of jumpshooter or something. So here we have a 22 year old who was already amongst the best shooters in the league now extending his range out to 3point range and shooting a very respectable 35% in his first year taking that many attempts and what? We can't say he is a good 3point shooter now? He kinda was always a good shooter now he's a good 3point shooter, still no love? Luol Deng get's more love from you for hitting 8 3pointers last season but unsuprisingly you were lauding him for hitting 40%.

[Diesel]

Fred Astaire this is getting funnier every moment. So Marvin ended the 2007-2008 as the best long 2 point jumpshooter in the NBA by percentage and was amongst the top 5 of everybody in attempts from that distance, being mentioned with such names as Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady. Don't believe me? http://insider.espn.go.com

According to ESPN.... Marvin was our BU SF.

:laughing5:

[Admin]

When you look at our setup... this is exactly what I'm talking about. Smoove at the 3, Zaza at the high post. Nobody inside. Smoove and Evans switch side like a UCLA 1:4 offensive switch. However, there's nothing going inside. We have no offensive scheme. Just a bunch of guys doing stuff.

Uhh thank you for proving my point about us not having an offensive system I guess although I'm still not sure that you understand that Woodson has a place where he coaches our players to be at in our offense which is why they go to those places.

[exodus]

According to ESPN.... Marvin was our BU SF.

:laughing5:

Yet another subject change, Very impressive how Diesel can touch on so many topics other than the actual topic of the thread.

When he assisted shooting % nonsense gets punk'd he switches to 3 pt shooting. When that gets punk'd he switches to Woody's offense. When that gets punk'd he switches to a mistake by some ESPN flunky who probably didnt watch a Hawks game all year.

[MaceCase]

According to ESPN.... Marvin was our BU SF.

:laughing5:

[Diesel]

Yet another subject change, Very impressive how Diesel can touch on so many topics other than the actual topic of the thread.

When he assisted shooting % nonsense gets punk'd he switches to 3 pt shooting. When that gets punk'd he switches to Woody's offense. When that gets punk'd he switches to a mistake by some ESPN flunky who probably didnt watch a Hawks game all year.

No, just goes to the validity of his source.

His source is putting Marvin the same breath with Kobe and Tmac.. but in the same breath... says that Marvin is a BU SF?

BTW... nothing has been punk'd here.

If anything, I see a failure of many of you to answer questions directly. Just as always Ex, you hang on the molehill and miss the mountain. You spend your time ignoring the mountain. Craw does too obviously. If I have to direct you guys with one sentence answers, I will.

Back to the mountain.

Is it true or not that Marvin goes to his spot and waits on somebody to pass him the ball?

[MaceCase]

My mistake Tap Dance Kid, I had no idea that the link just sent you to the insider frontpage. I had thought I had mentioned Hollinger in an earlier post as my source. Well let me just give you a little background on him.

John Hollinger (born May 17, 1971) is an influential figure in the field of APBRmetrics, the quantitative analysis of basketball

Now since I can't get a link to work I'll link you to Marvin's player profile page here.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2797

You can proceed to click on the link around there titled "Hollinger". If you are having problems doing that I'll just quote his review.......again. I will highlite key parts this time for easy digestion.

2007-08 season: Ask a friend to make a list of the game's top mid-range jump shooters, and see how long it takes for this guy's name to come up. No, he isn't famous for it yet like Richard Hamilton or Sam Cassell, but Williams was one of the league's elite mid-range shooters last year.

Actually, for a jump shooter his stat line was really deceiving. Only one small forward took fewer 3-pointers per field-goal attempt than Williams, and only seven had a higher rate of free-throw attempts per field-goal attempt. Based on those numbers you'd think he was a lumbering post player, but he's a jump shooter. Really, I swear. In fact, nearly half of his attempts were long 2-pointers, and only three players in all of basketball -- Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady and Travis Outlaw -- took more long 2s than Williams. He made a healthy 45.4 percent of them, the best mark of any player in the top 10 in attempts, and only Portland's Outlaw had a greater proportion of his attempts come from this distance. (See chart).

Most long 2-point attempts, 2007-08

Player Team FG FGA Pct. Pct. of total attempts

Tracy McGrady Hou 228 531 .429 .408

Kobe Bryant LAL 185 492 .376 .292

Travis Outlaw Por 191 460 .415 .478

Marvin Williams Atl 198 436 .454 .475

Kevin Durant OKC 180 434 .415 .318

Richard Jefferson NJ 174 425 .409 .320

Carmelo Anthony Den 190 422 .450 .287

Monta Ellis GS 117 403 .439 .329

Andre Iguodala Phi 167 403 .414 .319

LeBron James Cle 144 389 .370 .237

The mid-range shooting, as well as scrapping the 3s, helped improve his TS%, and add nearly two points to his 40-minute scoring rate. That, in turn, made him a decent starting NBA small forward in his third pro season.

I hope you found that helpful Alfonso.

[exodus]

No, just goes to the validity of his source.

His source is putting Marvin the same breath with Kobe and Tmac.. but in the same breath... says that Marvin is a BU SF?

BTW... nothing has been punk'd here.

If anything, I see a failure of many of you to answer questions directly. Just as always Ex, you hang on the molehill and miss the mountain. You spend your time ignoring the mountain. Craw does too obviously. If I have to direct you guys with one sentence answers, I will.

Back to the mountain.

Is it true or not that Marvin goes to his spot and waits on somebody to pass him the ball?

That is everyone's role except for the guy who brings the ball up. They can't walk up and take the ball from the pg and there sure isn't much movement without the ball in Woody's "offense".

What breath did hollinger say that Marvin was a backup? LOL more fiction from Diesel. They were just listing the depth chart from the end of the season when Marvin was either out with an injury or coming off the bench?

Speaking of ignoring the mountain we are on page 7 and you still haven't addressed the actual topic of the thread, the fact that Marvin stepped up his scoring when one or more of Bibby/JJ/Smith are out or ineffective.

And how exactly did Deng become such an accomplished 3 pt shooter by making only 8 three pointers this season.

Edited July 30, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

That is everyone's role except for the guy who brings the ball up. They can't walk up and take the ball from the pg and there sure isn't much movement without the ball in Woody's "offense".

What breath did hollinger say that Marvin was a backup? LOL more fiction from Diesel. They were just listing the depth chart from the end of the season when Marvin was either out with an injury or coming off the bench?

Speaking of ignoring the mountain we are on page 7 and you still haven't addressed the actual topic of the thread, the fact that Marvin stepped up his scoring when one or more of Bibby/JJ/Smith are out or ineffective.

And how exactly did Deng become such an accomplished 3 pt shooter by making only 8 three pointers this season.

First question... Did you follow the link or are you looking at molehills again. I didn't say Hollinger.

Second...I asked does Marvin go to his spot and wait? That is not saying that he plays his role in the offense. That's saying that he goes and waits on somebody to feed him a shot? The difference is you can go to your place in the offensive scheme and do what you're supposed to do... weather that be set the pick/roll etc... or you can just go find your favorite spot on the court and wait for another player to find you while you're wide open. Now... When JJ played Sf and Flip played SG, we didn't see JJ going to his favorite spot and waiting like Marvin does. Therefore, what Marvin is doing is NOT a part of the offensive scheme... IF our players were bound by an offensive scheme, then Joe would be doing the same thing. Sorta like Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman in the triangle. They did the same thing.

[exodus]

First question... Did you follow the link or are you looking at molehills again. I didn't say Hollinger.

Yes you did.

His source is putting Marvin the same breath with Kobe and Tmac.. but in the same breath... says that Marvin is a BU SF?

His source was Hollinger. So where did Hollinger say Marvin was a backup?

Now... When JJ played Sf and Flip played SG, we didn't see JJ going to his favorite spot and waiting like Marvin does.

What does JJ do when he isn't bringing it up? He waits for whoever is bringing it up to pass him the ball which happens nearly every time.

Speaking of ignoring the mountain we are on page 7 and you still haven't addressed the actual topic of the thread, the fact that Marvin stepped up his scoring when one or more of Bibby/JJ/Smith are out or ineffective.

And how exactly did Deng become such an accomplished 3 pt shooter by making only 8 three pointers this season.

*CRICKETS*

[Diesel]

Let me start a wild Marvin thread for once.

To me, the most valid point anywhere in the other thread is that Marvin exists as a 3rd or 4th option in the offense, whereas a guy like Deng is at least one spot up in the pecking order on his team. I submit that Marvin plays his role well, and has shown he can step up when others are down.

To wit, I gathered Marvin's stats for each game in which at least one of JJ, MB, or JS were out or were held to 5 points or less. That gave me 24 games to work with, a pretty decent sample. Marvin's scoring average in those 24 games = 16.5ppg! Or, basically the same as Deng.

I bet some of his other numbers are better as well, but I'll let anyone else who has time take a shot at that.

[set of games I used: November 9,11,12,14,15,18,19,22,26,28,29; December 10; January 25,26,28; February 4,6,7,11,23,25,27; March 4; April 14]

Let's address...

First. Let's get the baseline and play over vs. Under.

Marvin's season average = 13.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.3 apg I will also include Game Score created to show performance in a single game (40 = outstanding; 10 = average)

November 9. Smoove out...

Marvin = 14, 7, 0... GameScore = 8.3 Not impressive.

November 11. Smoove out...

Marvin = 13, 4, 1 Gamescore = 10 Not impressive.

November 12. Smoove out...

Marvin = 14, 4, 1 Gamescore = 10. Not impressive.

Novemeber 14. Smoove out...

Marvin = 21, 4, 1. Gamescore = 13. Impressive in loss to the Nets.

Novemeber 15. Smoove out...

Marvin =14, 6, 0. Gamescore = 10. Not impressive against nets.

Novermber 18. Smoove out...

Marvin = 14, 4, 2. Gamescore = 8. Not impressive against Pacer. FG% = Mighty low 36%.

November 19 Smoove out....

Marvin = 21, 14, 4. Gamescore = 23. Great game. Looked really strong. However, nobody stopped Caron Butler either.

Novemeber 22. Smoove out

Marvin = 11, 7, 3. Gamescore = 10. Not impressive.

November 26. Smoove out

Marvin = 18, 5, 2. Gamescore = 17. Good game vs. Bucks.

November 28. Smoove out.

Marvin = 10, 7, 4. Gamescore = 11. Not impressive.

November 29. Smoove out

Marvin = 14, 4, 4. Gamescore = 11. About average.

So let's summarize here. With Smoove out. What exactly did Marvin do? He had 3 impressive games out of 12. Those were against the Bucks, the Wizards, and the Nets. Everything else falls along his average.

In fact.

His average over the period of Smoove's absence was:

14.9 ppg, 6 rpg, 3.6 apg.

Compared to his baseline of he increased his scoring by 1 point. He decreased his rebounding. He increase his assists by 2. Is that what you call "STEPPING UP".

It looks like remaining the same so far.

[exodus]

Let's address...

First. Let's get the baseline and play over vs. Under.

Marvin's season average = 13.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.3 apg I will also include Game Score created to show performance in a single game (40 = outstanding; 10 = average)

November 9. Smoove out...

Marvin = 14, 7, 0... GameScore = 8.3 Not impressive.

November 11. Smoove out...

Marvin = 13, 4, 1 Gamescore = 10 Not impressive.

November 12. Smoove out...

Marvin = 14, 4, 1 Gamescore = 10. Not impressive.

Novemeber 14. Smoove out...

Marvin = 21, 4, 1. Gamescore = 13. Impressive in loss to the Nets.

Novemeber 15. Smoove out...

Marvin =14, 6, 0. Gamescore = 10. Not impressive against nets.

Novermber 18. Smoove out...

Marvin = 14, 4, 2. Gamescore = 8. Not impressive against Pacer. FG% = Mighty low 36%.

November 19 Smoove out....

Marvin = 21, 14, 4. Gamescore = 23. Great game. Looked really strong. However, nobody stopped Caron Butler either.

Novemeber 22. Smoove out

Marvin = 11, 7, 3. Gamescore = 10. Not impressive.

November 26. Smoove out

Marvin = 18, 5, 2. Gamescore = 17. Good game vs. Bucks.

November 28. Smoove out.

Marvin = 10, 7, 4. Gamescore = 11. Not impressive.

November 29. Smoove out

Marvin = 14, 4, 4. Gamescore = 11. About average.

So let's summarize here. With Smoove out. What exactly did Marvin do? He had 3 impressive games out of 12. Those were against the Bucks, the Wizards, and the Nets. Everything else falls along his average.

Smith missed 13 games but you only listed 11. Why is that Agendaman?

Edited July 30, 2009 by exodus

[DrReality]

Maybe is Joe did less iso some of the other guys could do more.

[Diesel]

Smith missed 13 games but you only listed 11. Why is that Agendaman?

No, I'm going in the order that txting gave. So I just followed exactly what he said. If you were smart, you would notice that I haven't covered the whole season yet (duh), just those first set of games that Smoove missed (following txtings numbers).

Looking for more molehills I see!

Obviously, you have nothing real to add but insults and pictures so why don't you take this corniness elsewhere until you have a basketball related point??

Edited July 30, 2009 by Diesel

[Diesel]

Let me start a wild Marvin thread for once.

To me, the most valid point anywhere in the other thread is that Marvin exists as a 3rd or 4th option in the offense, whereas a guy like Deng is at least one spot up in the pecking order on his team. I submit that Marvin plays his role well, and has shown he can step up when others are down.

To wit, I gathered Marvin's stats for each game in which at least one of JJ, MB, or JS were out or were held to 5 points or less. That gave me 24 games to work with, a pretty decent sample. Marvin's scoring average in those 24 games = 16.5ppg! Or, basically the same as Deng.

I bet some of his other numbers are better as well, but I'll let anyone else who has time take a shot at that.

[set of games I used: November 9,11,12,14,15,18,19,22,26,28,29; December 10; January 25,26,28; February 4,6,7,11,23,25,27; March 4; April 14]

I have gone through the numbers in red... which represents Smoove's first set of missed games. However, I have just looked over some of the dates and I have to question these:

March 4...

In this game, all of our starters played. All started and Flip scored in double digits. What exactly was the purpose for adding this one?

April 14...

We had clinched the playoffs spot. Last game of the season and no starter played more than 20 minutes. What was the purpose of adding this one?

Feb 27,

Bibby played with flulike symptoms.

Atlanta G Mike Bibby (flulike symptoms) and Smith (family matter) missed the Hawks' last game, a 110-109 loss at Denver. Bibby said he has hardly eaten in the last three days because of the illness. He started, but played only 19 minutes and was 0-for-7 from the field

I think when it comes down to it, Marvin may have "stepped up in 5-6 of the 24 games that you mentioned. The rest of the time, he's at his same average or below. I have shown with the games of November and Dec that he only tipped his average by 1 point, -0.3 rebs, and 2 assists on the strength of three big games against the nets, bucks, and wizards. That in itself kinda kills this theory. Maybe you should go with Marvin steps up when Joe is out or against his favorite teams the nuggets and the knicks?

[exodus]

No, I'm going in the order that txting gave. So I just followed exactly what he said. If you were smart, you would notice that I haven't covered the whole season yet (duh), just those first set of games that Smoove missed (following txtings numbers).

Looking for more molehills I see!

Obviously, you have nothing real to add but insults and pictures so why don't you take this corniness elsewhere until you have a basketball related point??

On Nov 21 against the Bobcats Marvin had 22/10. Funny but in your own post you mention twelve games " He had 3 impressive games out of 12." but you only list 11.And you just happened to skip the denver game where Marvin dropped 31. Then you have the nerve to say this..

So let's summarize here. With Smoove out. What exactly did Marvin do?

Marvin scored 53 pts in the 2 games you left out. Time to revise your stats Agendaman.

Edited July 30, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

On Nov 21 against the Bobcats Marvin had 22/10. Funny but in your own post you mention twelve games " He had 3 impressive games out of 12." but you only list 11.And you just happened to skip the denver game where Marvin dropped 31. Then you have the nerve to say this..

Marvin scored 53 pts in the 2 games you left out. Time to revise your stats Agendaman.

Once again...

If you go to the original post in this thread. I am following the dates that txting gave. IF you have a problem, deal with him. I'm beginning to think that you can't read? I see you're still going after the molehills. BTW. You mean the Denver game in FEB?

Edited July 30, 2009 by Diesel

[exodus]

Once again...

If you go to the original post in this thread. I am following the dates that txting gave. IF you have a problem, deal with him. I'm beginning to think that you can't read? I see you're still going after the molehills. BTW. You mean the Denver game in FEB?

Then why did you say this?

He had 3 impressive games out of 12."

When you only list 11 games?

And why did you say this

With Smoove out. What exactly did Marvin do?

when you didn't even include all the games Smith was out? The whole point of the thread was that Marvin stepped up his scoring when one of Smith/Bibby/JJ was out or ineffective. For some reason you decided to focus solely on Smith. Let's see if you know how to use a calculator.

What did Marvin average in ALL of the games Smith missed?

*waits for inevitable change of subject*

[Diesel]

Then why did you say this?

When you only list 11 games?

And why did you say this

when you didn't even include all the games Smith was out? The whole point of the thread was that Marvin stepped up his scoring when one of Smith/Bibby/JJ was out or ineffective. For some reason you decided to focus solely on Smith. Let's see if you know how to use a calculator.

What did Marvin average in ALL of the games Smith missed?

This is Such a molehill.

First off, I just finished the first block of games on txtings list. If you noted how I place them, I mentioned who was out. That's how I got the games that Smoove missed, not that I mentioned all the games all season, hell I didn't finish the season, but the big block of games missed at the beginning of TXTing list were there because those were the games that Smoove missed. I was going to do all of the games that txting has placed, but I stopped because I grew tired. However I did raise some questions about games that txting picked. CRICKETS ON THAT. Moreover, after I compiled the numbers, I noted how the averages were pretty much the same as Marvin's season averages. So the point is during this time where SMoove was out (notice I made no mention of a Smoove effect, just mention the games Smoove missed because Many people reading would remember he missed 12 games early in the season... most people except you) I found that these numbers didn't show a STEPPING UP as TXTing has declared. These numbers were just added in to give TXTing's point more substance. As were the other dates that I questioned above. So what it really comes down to as I summarized earlier is that there are about 6 games out of the 24 used where Marvin did step up. The other 18 mentioned are games where he played at or below his season average. To me, that's not stepping up when somebody goes out.

To you, it's a reason to throw Marvin a party. You do celebrate molehills.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Diesel