Marvin deserves to be flamed....

[Buzzard]

Again. PPG wise though, that only accounted for 1 ppg. ONLY 1 ppg. Marvin's PPG dropped. And you guys sit here and talk as if that's an overall improvement. That's not an overall improvement. That's a specific improvement that really had very little effect on us as a team. The bias comes because the TS% gives weight to FT% and in most of these cases, it diminishes the only thing that helps determine wins and losses... PPG.

I'll say it again. You can have your guy who scores 14 ppg and shoots 95% from the FT and 48.5% from the field. I'll take the guy who gets 25 ppg and shoots 46% from the field and 82% from the FT line. And then when we play,let's see who does more toward his team winning. Because at the end of the day, His TS% is not going to mean diddly.

So in other words, you take Marvin and I'll take Carmello and at the end of the day, let's see who wins more games.

Everyone here would like to have Carmello but he is not the player we traded for. His name is Crawford. So if this is truly what you want, why in the world are you lobbying for starting Crawford at SG over JJ? Career stats below.

Crawford FG%% 0.404 FT% 0.843 RPG 2.7 PPG 15.2

JJ FG% 0.441 FT% 0.789 RPG 4.2 PPG 17.2

Unlike you stated, YOU must really think FT% IS important because that is the ONLY category Crawford exceeds JJ at. Lord help us, the Dieselputer must be broke as it cannot read a simple box score.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Buzzard

[exodus]

Again. PPG wise though, that only accounted for 1 ppg. ONLY 1 ppg. Marvin's PPG dropped. And you guys sit here and talk as if that's an overall improvement. That's not an overall improvement. That's a specific improvement that really had very little effect on us as a team. The bias comes because the TS% gives weight to FT% and in most of these cases, it diminishes the only thing that helps determine wins and losses... PPG.

I'll say it again. You can have your guy who scores 14 ppg and shoots 95% from the FT and 48.5% from the field. I'll take the guy who gets 25 ppg and shoots 46% from the field and 82% from the FT line. And then when we play,let's see who does more toward his team winning. Because at the end of the day, His TS% is not going to mean diddly.

So in other words, you take Marvin and I'll take Carmello and at the end of the day, let's see who wins more games.

:lol6:

Of course a guy scoring 25 ppg is more valuable than a guy scoring 14. That is a 79% scoring disparity. Duh

I love how you make up a nonsensical comparison because all of your arguments have been completely punked. The issue isn't TS% vs PPG. It is TS% vs FG% and TS% is clearly superior.

You really should never make any post with numbers in it because you clearly don't understand them. The number of shots Zaza and Marvin take is not a sign of improvement or lack thereof. What matters is what they do with the shots they take and both made significant strides last year as scorers. Marvin also set a career high in rebounds and a career low in turnovers which speaks to his OVERALL improvement.

Edited October 13, 2009 by exodus

[EazyRoc]

Again. PPG wise though, that only accounted for 1 ppg. ONLY 1 ppg. Marvin's PPG dropped. And you guys sit here and talk as if that's an overall improvement. That's not an overall improvement. That's a specific improvement that really had very little effect on us as a team. The bias comes because the TS% gives weight to FT% and in most of these cases, it diminishes the only thing that helps determine wins and losses... PPG.

I'll say it again. You can have your guy who scores 14 ppg and shoots 95% from the FT and 48.5% from the field. I'll take the guy who gets 25 ppg and shoots 46% from the field and 82% from the FT line. And then when we play,let's see who does more toward his team winning. Because at the end of the day, His TS% is not going to mean diddly.

So in other words, you take Marvin and I'll take Carmello and at the end of the day, let's see who wins more games.

:lol6:

Bottom line is Marvin has improved every year and is getting significantly better. He's scoring more efficiently, rebounding better, getting more steals, and getting more blocks. He's also became a much improved and very solid man defender. I don't know how Carmelo came into the argument. Maybe you're trying to change the subject ?

[Buzzard]

:lol6:

Bottom line is Marvin has improved every year and is getting significantly better. He's scoring more efficiently, rebounding better, getting more steals, and getting more blocks. He's also became a much improved and very solid man defender. I don't know how Carmelo came into the argument. Maybe you're trying to change the subject ?

That or if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe the Dieselputer got the Cs' mixed up and thinks we traded for Carmello instead of Crawford?

Edited October 13, 2009 by Buzzard

[AHF]

Again. PPG wise though, that only accounted for 1 ppg. ONLY 1 ppg. Marvin's PPG dropped. And you guys sit here and talk as if that's an overall improvement. That's not an overall improvement. That's a specific improvement that really had very little effect on us as a team. The bias comes because the TS% gives weight to FT% and in most of these cases, it diminishes the only thing that helps determine wins and losses... PPG.

I'll say it again. You can have your guy who scores 14 ppg and shoots 95% from the FT and 48.5% from the field. I'll take the guy who gets 25 ppg and shoots 46% from the field and 82% from the FT line. And then when we play,let's see who does more toward his team winning. Because at the end of the day, His TS% is not going to mean diddly.

So in other words, you take Marvin and I'll take Carmello and at the end of the day, let's see who wins more games.

So now you are arguing that Zaza wasn't a better scorer last year shooting .497 FG% compared to .437 FG% the year before? Give me a break, D. That is just ridiculous both from the numbers and from the "eye test" where Zaza was clearly dramatically improved over the prior season.

The Carmelo argument is also irrelevant and irrational. We are talking about FG% versus TS%. Now you are making it out like Carmelo's value as a total player has something to do with the debate on whether FG% or TS% is the better way of measuring scoring efficiency. PPG has nothing to do with this, although it does relate to player value (which is why volume scoring is rewarded in PER...the same PER that saw Marvin considerably improve in 2008-09 from 2007-08).

If I accept the Carmelo argument you must accept the following: You can take your 2001-02 Allen Iverson scoring 31.4 ppg on 40.8% FG% (48.9% TS%) and I'll take my 2001-02 Shaquille O'Neal scoring a mere 27.2 ppg on 57.9% FG% (59% TS%) and I'll whip you every time.

(As an aside, I know that comparison makes no sense to make but the Carmello/Marvin comparison is equally irrational and irrelevant).

* * * *

Bottomline: TS% is a much better indicator of scoring efficiency than FG%. Anyone who criticizes a decline in FG% for a player who significantly increased his TS% isn't diving deep enough into the numbers because if you are talking about scoring efficiency, TS% is always a better number.

[RedDawg#8]

(Wonders what Carmelo had to do with anything)

Jeez Diesel,

Yes, there are better SF's in the NBA than Marvin.

There are also better PG's than Bibby, better SG's than Joe, better PF's than Josh, and better Centers than Horford.

You continue to act like Marv is the only player who can improve on our team. BUT HE'S NOT.

Our team is good because of the sum of it's parts. Individually, we fall short in several matchup's against the top team's.

We would love to see him become an All-star, we also would love Bibby, Smoove, and Al to be all-star's too.

We underachieve as a TEAM, not because of Marvin Gaye Williams, the #2 pick of the 2005 NBA Draft. (What the hell has Andrew Bogut done in the league btw?)

Our ENTIRE STARTING 5 are 1st round draft picks and NONE of them are superstar's, not even JJ, so just let it go!!!!

Stop with your microscopic view of Marvin's game and see the bigger picture. for the sake of our sanity *exxageration*

[Diesel]

Everyone here would like to have Carmello but he is not the player we traded for. His name is Crawford. So if this is truly what you want, why in the world are you lobbying for starting Crawford at SG over JJ? Career stats below.

Crawford FG%% 0.404 FT% 0.843 RPG 2.7 PPG 15.2

JJ FG% 0.441 FT% 0.789 RPG 4.2 PPG 17.2

Unlike you stated, YOU must really think FT% IS important because that is the ONLY category Crawford exceeds JJ at. Lord help us, the Dieselputer must be broke as it cannot read a simple box score.

No, again you missed it. The main point of what I'm saying is that if it doesn't direrctly contribute to us winning, then it doesn't mean that much. TS% is a very specific measurement but it doesn't matter the things that directly effects our winning. I illustrated this using Carmello vs. Marvin Marvin's TS% is .569.. Mello's was .564. Does this mean that Marvin is better than Mello? Does this mean that Marvin is as good as Mello? I would suggest that it's meaningless as to proving how Marvin rates against Mello as a player and furthermore it's useless in proving if a player has improved his overall game. If there is no direct benefit to the team in a jump in TS% then what exactly does it mean?? Marvin contributed less PPG than he did the year before. IS that good for the team? NOOO.... It's just another stat that proves something insignificant.

[MaceCase]

This thread is filled with :cant believe: moments followed by :doh: moments.

[Peoriabird]

Stop with your microscopic view of Marvin's game and see the bigger picture. for the sake of our sanity *exxageration*

I think that it is time to start a Marvin Hate forum because the same issues continue to be discussed regarding Marvin Williams year after year despite improvement in the Hawks as a team and Marvin as a player. These kinds of threads are a poor representation of this board's support for the team and any outsider or team member for that matter might end up with the wrong impression of Hawks fans here if this kind of stuff continues to dominate Home court. I vote to have this stuff moved.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Peoriabird

[Diesel]

If I accept the Carmelo argument you must accept the following: You can take your 2001-02 Allen Iverson scoring 31.4 ppg on 40.8% FG% (48.9% TS%) and I'll take my 2001-02 Shaquille O'Neal scoring a mere 27.2 ppg on 57.9% FG% (59% TS%) and I'll whip you every time.

(As an aside, I know that comparison makes no sense to make but the Carmello/Marvin comparison is equally irrational and irrelevant).

* * * *

Bottomline: TS% is a much better indicator of scoring efficiency than FG%. Anyone who criticizes a decline in FG% for a player who significantly increased his TS% isn't diving deep enough into the numbers because if you are talking about scoring efficiency, TS% is always a better number.

HaHa. So you need ~17% FG more to whip me every time???

:thumbsupsmileyanim:

That tangent leads to an interesting question...

If you trade AI and Deke to LAL and Fisher and Shaq to Philly the year that both teams made it to the finals, who wins?

How's your TS% doing then?

[Diesel]

I think that it is time to start a Marvin Hate forum because the same issues continue to be discussed regarding Marvin Williams year after year despite improvement in the Hawks as a team and Marvin as a player. These kinds of threads are a poor representation of this board's support for the team and any outsider or team member for that matter might end up with the wrong impression of Hawks fans here if this kind of stuff continues to dominate Home court. I vote to have this stuff moved.

Wow, you are a pilliar of Logic. " I don't want fans of the team to be put off by a negative Marvin thread, so let's make a Negative Marvin Forum"?

:help wanted3:

Bottom line, the reason why these topics get coverage is because there's a lot of truth to it. It's just a shame that anybody who mentions anything about Marvin gets jumped on by the Marvin protection force. Even this thread. Marvin's very own words.. Not taken out of context... not misquoted.. He said that he doesn't want to change anything he's doing.... although it's obvious that he's not an aggressive player. Still, it has been diluted by the MPF to a discussion on FG% vs. TS%.... That's what normally happens here when the name Marvin is whispered and it's not a buttkiss post.

[RedDawg#8]

its not the Marvin protective force, it's the rational, shed light on the fact's force.

its not too late to sign up either

[Peoriabird]

Wow, you are a pilliar of Logic. " I don't want fans of the team to be put off by a negative Marvin thread, so let's make a Negative Marvin Forum"?

:help wanted3:

Bottom line, the reason why these topics get coverage is because there's a lot of truth to it. It's just a shame that anybody who mentions anything about Marvin gets jumped on by the Marvin protection force. Even this thread. Marvin's very own words.. Not taken out of context... not misquoted.. He said that he doesn't want to change anything he's doing.... although it's obvious that he's not an aggressive player. Still, it has been diluted by the MPF to a discussion on FG% vs. TS%.... That's what normally happens here when the name Marvin is whispered and it's not a buttkiss post.

It could be named Hate forum but these kinds of thread aren't created for any other players on the team except Marvin Williams thus Marvin Hate Forum.

[Diesel]

Bottom line, the reason why these topics get coverage is because there's a lot of truth to it. It's just a shame that anybody who mentions anything about Marvin gets jumped on by the Marvin protection force. Even this thread. Marvin's very own words.. Not taken out of context... not misquoted.. He said that he doesn't want to change anything he's doing.... although it's obvious that he's not an aggressive player. Still, it has been diluted by the MPF to a discussion on FG% vs. TS%.... That's what normally happens here when the name Marvin is whispered and it's not a buttkiss post.

Isn't it funny. We demand change out of every player on the team.

1. We expect Josh to stop shooting from outside. We expect him to drive to the basket more.

2. We expect Joe not to hog the ball as much and to work in the flow of the offense.

3. We expect Bibby to play better defense and to be a better offensive leader.

4. We expect Horf to develop a low post offensive game and to have better footwork.

5. Jamal hasn't been a Hawk, but we expect him to play harder on defense and to take smarter shots.

However, when it comes to Marvin.

If somebody whispers:

He should be more aggressive..... Expect to be lynched by the Marvin protection Force. Expect them to cite the 2005 draft (as if it matters). Expect them to defend his lackadaisical attitude on the court as if it's no big deal. Expect them to say that he's improved and show you foreign stats that focuses on one minute portion of the game. Expect them to ignore anything that comes out of Marvin's mouth that suggests that he's not going tochange what he does... Even though he says.. He's not going to change what he does.

Now Let me ask those who are not afraid to tell the truth..

If Smoove was interviewed and was asked if he would stop shooting the three ball.. And Smoove said... No, I've been working on my shot and I will probably attempt more threes than I did last year...

How many of you would want Smoove traded??

Unfortunately on Hawksquawk... You can't mention Marvin's lack of aggressiveness as a hinderance to the team. No.. Marvin's ppg drops and Hawksquawk says... He has improved every year?????

That's the truth!

[AHF]

No, again you missed it. The main point of what I'm saying is that if it doesn't direrctly contribute to us winning, then it doesn't mean that much. TS% is a very specific measurement but it doesn't matter the things that directly effects our winning. I illustrated this using Carmello vs. Marvin Marvin's TS% is .569.. Mello's was .564. Does this mean that Marvin is better than Mello? Does this mean that Marvin is as good as Mello? I would suggest that it's meaningless as to proving how Marvin rates against Mello as a player and furthermore it's useless in proving if a player has improved his overall game. If there is no direct benefit to the team in a jump in TS% then what exactly does it mean?? Marvin contributed less PPG than he did the year before. IS that good for the team? NOOO.... It's just another stat that proves something insignificant.

What Marvin did last year correlates strongly to winning more. He increased both his PER and win shares last year and both of those statistical models are based off formulas designed to correlate with wins.

He improved overall last season.

[coachx]

We all know Marvin's over all FG% dropped b/c he shot so many more 3 point FGs.

Diesel, why did you not point out Marvin's 2 pt FG% in 07-08 compared to 08-09 ?

07-08 = .465 on 2 point FG %

08-09 = .492 on 2 point FG %

His 3 pt FG percentage also improved:

07-08 = .10 on 3pt FG %

08-09 = .354 on 3pt FG%

[exodus]

No, again you missed it. The main point of what I'm saying is that if it doesn't direrctly contribute to us winning, then it doesn't mean that much. TS% is a very specific measurement but it doesn't matter the things that directly effects our winning.

So TS% doesn't contribute to winning but FG% does?

:question:

[MaceCase]

Now Let me ask those who are not afraid to tell the truth..

If Smoove was interviewed and was asked if he would stop shooting the three ball.. And Smoove said... No, I've been working on my shot and I will probably attempt more threes than I did last year...

How many of you would want Smoove traded??

Unfortunately on Hawksquawk... You can't mention Marvin's lack of aggressiveness as a hinderance to the team. No.. Marvin's ppg drops and Hawksquawk says... He has improved every year?????

That's the truth!

If Marvin sucked as much as Smoove's jumpshooting at not being "aggressive" then we would be on him just as much. Funny how one wants to decry math and statistics and say that we chose to focus on one statistic (which isn't true we've whooped you on a hundred stats) while they harp on one statistic as proof of them being right :rolleyes:

[Diesel]

What Marvin did last year correlates strongly to winning more. He increased both his PER and win shares last year and both of those statistical models are based off formulas designed to correlate with wins.

He improved overall last season.

So does the fact that you're using PER means that TS% is useless in determining his effect for the team??

Back to PER. Marvin's PER went from 14.5 to 16. The league average is 15. So what exactly does this mean. HE went from slightly under average to a little over average. However, more specifically, it means that his three pointers improved. Great. However, how does that help the team?

Bottom line:

He contributed 14.8 ppg in 2007-2008.. and he contributed 13.9 ppg in 2008-2009.

He contributed 5.7 rpg in 2007-2008 and he contributed 6.3 rpg in 2008-2009.

He contributed 1.7 apg in 2007-2008 and he contributed 1.3 apg in 2008-2009.

So overall, did he improve.. I have to say Not really. Not as far as the team is concerned.

You guys want to talk about improvement and ignore team contribution.

[Peoriabird]

We all know Marvin's over all FG% dropped b/c he shot so many more 3 point FGs.

Diesel, why did you not point out Marvin's 2 pt FG% in 07-08 compared to 08-09 ?

07-08 = .465 on 2 point FG %

08-09 = .492 on 2 point FG %

His 3 pt FG percentage also improved:

07-08 = .10 on 3pt FG %

08-09 = .354 on 3pt FG%

My name is Diesel! FG% doesn't matter, TS% doesn't matter, the only stat that matters is points per game unless Marvin improves his scoring average next year. Then I'll move to Assist per game to show that Marvin shouldn't be a starter!!