You guys are tragically funny.

[Atlantaholic]

Yeah I think it was teke who first warned me about this, its hilarious to me tho.

Don't worry, after we get our first 5 game winning streak of the season you'll see those 'We are better than..." threads start to popping up again. There is balance on this forum... just the extreme kind Lol.

[Buzzard]

That's fine. But the thing I was disputing is the idea that Crawford "showed up" last night. In my book, you don't show up unless you show up on both ends. It's something that ticks me off to no end - a lot of people judge whether a player "shows up" by how aggressive he is offensively, without regard to what happens for the other 50% of the game.

As for whether I expect it from Crawford...yes, I do. I know he does not lay it out there on defense, and I've come to expect that from him after watching him on WGN and the MSG Network (I've lived in Philly for 6 of the past 8 years and both are part of the digital cable package around here). But just because he never "showed up" on defense before doesn't mean that we should pat him on the back for continuing to do it. And that's what it seems like you're doing when you applaud someone for "showing up" when he is aggressive offensively even though he didn't give an effort on the other end of the floor. And that annoys the hell out of me. (This is all aside from the fact that he threw two of the worst passes I've seen in quite awhile and didn't set anyone up to score all night)

I've also come to expect these types of games from the Hawks every once in awhile, so I don't know about how dissonant last night was with expectations for the rest of the players...

In any case, you know what they say about people who assume. So don't do it.

That is showing up with Crawford. I can only assume you know nothing of his game if you expect better defense. He could not stay in front of small quick guards when he first came into the league, he sure as hell is not quicker now nine years later. What he gave was all he has. Expecting him to stay in front of guards as quick as Nelson without fouling is asking the impossible. He can't do it; and unless you accept that as a reality, you are going to be whining about his defensive effort for the next two years.

Him and Bibby on defense are pretty much equals. Accept it, deal with, but don't act like you did not expect it. Makes you look clueless or at the least very naive.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Buzzard

[niremetal]

That is showing up with Crawford. I can only assume you know nothing of his game if you expect better defense. He could not stay in front of small quick guards when he first came into the league, he sure as hell is not quicker now nine years later. What he gave was all he has. Expecting him to stay in front of guards as quick as Nelson without fouling is asking the impossible. He can't do it; and unless you accept that as a reality, you are going to be whining about his defensive effort for the next two years.

Him and Bibby on defense are pretty much equals. Accept it, deal with, but don't act like you did not expect it. Makes you look clueless or at the least very naive.

I'm sorry, but did you even read my post before you posted that response? I explicitly said I expected it. I just don't think that expecting a player to not give his all makes it ok to not give his all or means that we should overlook that aspect of his game when assessing that player's performance. Jamal Crawford doesn't give his all on defense. Everyone who watches him knows this, but that doesn't make it ok. How is that "acting like I did not expect it?"

It's starting to look like you have little-to-no interest in actually reading and responding to my posts, so if you're not going to do that, let me know so I won't bother responding to you anymore.

Edited October 25, 2009 by niremetal

[Buzzard]

I'm sorry, but did you even read my post before you posted that response? I explicitly said I expected it. I just don't think that expecting a player to not give his all makes it ok to not give his all or means that we should overlook that aspect of his game when assessing that player's performance. Jamal Crawford doesn't give his all on defense. Everyone who watches him knows this, but that doesn't make it ok. How is that "acting like I did not expect it?"

It's starting to look like you have little-to-no interest in actually reading and responding to my posts, so if you're not going to do that, let me know so I won't bother responding to you anymore.

I am saying he gives effort on both ends of the floor and has for all of his nine years. What I am also saying is he is not capable of playing better defense. You are asking Crawford do something he is not capable of and blaming this inabilty on a lack of effort which is BS.

If Crawford was a pg who everaged 12 ppg and 8 assist would you expect him to become a better scorer after nine years? And if he did not, would you blame it on his lack of effort?

Crawford is a high energy guy who does not quit. I have never heard of a team mate or coach questioning his effort on the court, just his decisions.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Buzzard

[niremetal]

I am saying he gives effort on both ends of the floor and has for all of his nine years. What I am also saying is he is not capable of playing better defense. You are asking Crawford do something he is not capable of and blaming this inabilty on a lack of effort which is BS.

If Crawford was a pg who everaged 12 ppg and 8 assist would you expect him to become a better scorer after nine years? And if he did not, would you blame it on his lack of effort?

Crawford is a high energy guy who does not quit. I have never heard of a team mate or coach questioning his effort on the court, just his decisions.

Uh...I've heard that plenty of times. True, not from a teammate or coach (although see below) - but I've also never heard a teammate or coach praise his effort on D. And to be blunt, you're the first person I've ever heard say that Crawford gives 100% effort on D. I guess we can agree to disagree on that point, but to me, Jamal shows excellent quickness, speed, and ability to change direction on offense, but not on defense. That indicates a lack of effort. And I'm far, far, far from the only one who thinks so:

Draftexpress:

Defense: Has the lateral quickness and length to a factor, but tends to shy away from taking advantage of his tools when he’s not motivated. Comes up with a few steals by virtue of his incredibly quick hands and superb wingspan. Doesn’t make hustle plays, but shows some anticipation and timing. Won’t show a lot of effort playing defense on the ball. Tends to avoid getting in a low stance, allowing slower players to beat him into the lane. Will go under some screens and has a hard time fighting to get through solid picks on the perimeter. Gets a hand up when his man looks to score, but doesn’t get in position to effectively use his length. Usually opts to sag off his man, allowing him to accumulate some mid-to-long rebounds over the course of a game. Isn’t a great weakside defender either. Doesn’t leave his man, which is a good thing, but closes out very high and will sometimes take himself out of the play. Often winds up having to guard taller players, making it hard for him to be effective. Was much more effective defensively when he was coming off the bench and was playing with a sense of urgency.

Sports Illustrated (from an NBA scout):

It's going to help Johnson to have another potential 20-point guy playing with him. But that scoring may be offset by the fact that Crawford has been one of the worst defenders in the league at his position. With his height and length and athletic ability, you have to question why he isn't a better defender.

Hoopshype also says he "doesn't play much D." And this is from when he arrived in Golden State. Gee, whaddya know - a coach noticed that he doesn't play much defense too:

“I’ve told him, ‘Nobody probably ever told you how important it is that you play defense. This is something that has to be a part of you as a point guard in the NBA. You have to give more effort playing defensively.’ So a lot of this stuff is new being reinforced to him. . . . We’re looking at it from ground zero.”

You can also go chat with all the Knicks fans who watched him on a nightly basis for 5 years and ask if they think he gives his best effort on D; heck, you can just go check their message boards. And you can go ask Golden State fans or check their message boards to see if they thought Smart's off-the-court work with Crawford led to him giving more defensive effort on the floor last season.

But I guess you're right and all of us are full of "BS."

Edited October 25, 2009 by niremetal

[mrhonline]

We won't ever compete with Orl unless we get someone that can compete with Dwight.

This is what I'm afraid of. It does seem inevitable...

[DJlaysitup]

Now I'm one of those who loves to hate Crawful but he did show some determination on defense.....then he let Ryan Anderson take him off the dribble from the 3 point line to the paint and pretty much said forget it from that point on.

Craw is just a human being...blessed with some things...who plays basketball. He ain't no Earvin "Magic" Johnson or no Larry Bird....he's just a tall guy who can shoot (sometimes).

[uga2006]

For once I agree with you. Too many meltdowns on this board over nothing. It's a long season and the last pre-season game isn't the most motivating thing in the world. Most players are just ready to get it over and get the season started.

[jerrywest]

Its interesting that Diesel starts a thread calling other people "Tragically funny".

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Uh...I've heard that plenty of times. True, not from a teammate or coach (although see below) - but I've also never heard a teammate or coach praise his effort on D. And to be blunt, you're the first person I've ever heard say that Crawford gives 100% effort on D. I guess we can agree to disagree on that point, but to me, Jamal shows excellent quickness, speed, and ability to change direction on offense, but not on defense. That indicates a lack of effort. And I'm far, far, far from the only one who thinks so:

You can also go chat with all the Knicks fans who watched him on a nightly basis for 5 years and ask if they think he gives his best effort on D; heck, you can just go check their message boards. And you can go ask Golden State fans or check their message boards to see if they thought Smart's off-the-court work with Crawford led to him giving more defensive effort on the floor last season.

But I guess you're right and all of us are full of "BS."

What Buzz is saying though, is that the effort Jamal played with Friday night . . is typical Jamal Crawford defense. His awareness is terrible, almost as bad as Tyronn Lue's, but not quite as bad as Bibby's.

That's why I say that if Jamal plays well here ( on both ends of the floor ), people shouldn't say another word about Woody not developing players. Because expecting Jamal to be an adequate defender, is like expecting Collins to be a 15 ppg scorer. And if he becomes that, it's gonna be all because of Woody.

[NineOhTheRino]

Until the Hawks get more athletic players that can guard Howard, Carter or James you can pencil us in for losing in the 2nd round for the next 5 years.

Edited October 26, 2009 by NineOhTheRino

[LordOfNYork]

...reality hit hawks fans friday night

[buckeye242424]

Until the Hawks get more athletic players that can guard Howard, Carter or James you can pencil us in for losing in the 2nd round for the next 5 years.

Huh? I'm in an argument whether or not Jason Collins can guard D. Howard on another thread. Collins?? Seriously... Kinda funny to me that's the first person you mentioned over the likes of LeBron.

[BusBoyIsBack]

This is why I avoid these boards in the off-season and sometimes after losses. Too much doom and gloom

Edited October 27, 2009 by BusBoyIsBack

[Diesel]

I watched. The Vince Carter you saw last night is not the same VC that you will see in Feb. Neither is the Joe Johnson... We haven't started the season yet, but it's a long season.

For those of you who like to give everybody excuses, i believe that if the ship is not right in Jan, Woody will be gone and a trade will be made. But let's just play some games before we give up.

I believe prophetic is the word.

[Gray Mule]

:thumbsupsmileyanim:

Fighting for first place - - They decide tonight.

This Hawks team a yo yo - - Up and down.

Will the Hawk team vs Cleveland show? That one that quits.

Or, the Hawk team vs the Bostron boys? The big winners.

Consistant. That's one thing no one can accuse this team of being.

GO HAWKS!! GRAB THAT #1 !!

:thumbsupsmileyanim:

[Admin]

I believe prophetic is the word.

You want prophetic, how about in June how I said the Magic would regress with this trade and props to coach for also seeing the future. Who was it that was saying at halftime last night that Turk is the reason why the Magic aren't as good this year?

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/337397-orlando-close-to-getting-vince-carter-for-trash/page__view__findpost__p__391429

Yep but if they lose Turk I think they will regress. Plus giving up Courtney Lee is going to be something they regret in the future I think. It's nice to have those big contracts to throw around though in order to make these types of deals.

[High5]

You guys are funny. The Magic are a whole 4 games behind their record from last year with many more injuries and they're still killing us.

Edited January 10, 2010 by High5