How do you fix rebounding.

[Diesel]

I've said it over and over again... so I will pose it as a question.

We normally win when we outrebound teams, have ball movement, and find ways for our inside people to score. However, of all these three, I would say that the surefire key to wins for this team is rebounding.

Just look over our losses:

Lakers = Outrebounded us by 2 plus they shot 53% from the field.

Bobcats = US outrebounded 56-35.

New Orleans = We actually outrebounded them by 4... but they did shoot 70% from 3.

Orlando = Outrebounded us 53-41.

Detroit = Ben Wallace. They outrebounded us 53-27.

60% of the games we have loss,we lost because we were out-rebounded in double digits. The other 40% is unconscious shooting efforts. I think in a series we can get over great shooting. That's what defense is about. However, we have to find a way to have consistent rebounding.

Both Smoove and Al appear in the top 15 rebounders in the league. However, neither are what I would call consistent. And if Smoove is in foul trouble, it's bad. So how do we do it?

Moreover, neither Smoove or Al are consistent scorers in the post.

Would JJ play better if there were a consistent post scorer?

So, in this thread, I want to put it to the Squawk. What are some suggestions that we can take on improving our rebounding/post scoring?

[niremetal]

I've said it over and over again... so I will pose it as a question.

We normally win when we outrebound teams, have ball movement, and find ways for our inside people to score. However, of all these three, I would say that the surefire key to wins for this team is rebounding.

Just look over our losses:

Lakers = Outrebounded us by 2 plus they shot 53% from the field.

Bobcats = US outrebounded 56-35.

New Orleans = We actually outrebounded them by 4... but they did shoot 70% from 3.

Orlando = Outrebounded us 53-41.

Detroit = Ben Wallace. They outrebounded us 53-27.

60% of the games we have loss,we lost because we were out-rebounded in double digits. The other 40% is unconscious shooting efforts. I think in a series we can get over great shooting. That's what defense is about. However, we have to find a way to have consistent rebounding.

Both Smoove and Al appear in the top 15 rebounders in the league. However, neither are what I would call consistent. And if Smoove is in foul trouble, it's bad. So how do we do it?

Moreover, neither Smoove or Al are consistent scorers in the post.

Would JJ play better if there were a consistent post scorer?

So, in this thread, I want to put it to the Squawk. What are some suggestions that we can take on improving our rebounding/post scoring?

Two solutions immediately come to mind:

1) Stop the switching defense, which often puts our big men out on the perimeter and leaves our smallest guards to box out opposing big men. At the very least, don't switch when it's Bibby/Jamal/Teague's man who is getting screened.

2) Run a system that doesn't put Josh on the perimeter watching JJ/Jamal/Bibby jack up jumpers on 60% of our possessions. When he's near the basket, Josh is our best offensive rebounder. The problem is that he isn't near the basket often enough.

Edited December 1, 2009 by niremetal

[mrhonline]

Two more suggestions:

1. Demand more of Zaza. He's too inconsistent on the def boards.

2. Stop playing Marvin at PF. He's not got PF instincts whatsoever.

[Diesel]

Two solutions immediately come to mind:

1) Stop the switching defense, which often puts our big men out on the perimeter and leaves our smallest guards to box out opposing big men. At the very least, don't switch when it's Bibby/Jamal/Teague's man who is getting screened.

2) Run a system that doesn't put Josh on the perimeter watching JJ/Jamal/Bibby jack up jumpers on 60% of our possessions. When he's near the basket, Josh is our best offensive rebounder. The problem is that he isn't near the basket often enough.

i LIKE the idea of stopping the switching defense.

Woody likes the switching defense because he likes the versatility we have at the 2,3,and 4 positions with interchangable players. The problem is we get killed at the 1 position... also, we don't have a 5 that can stop big 5s. Watching Horf trying to defend Howard in our latest matchup was painful. It was like watching your kid get beat up in a Karate Match by a 10 year old Black belt with kick hands and clean kicks. Nothing you can do about it.

I think Woody invisions Smoove to be Rasheed Wallace like and wishes that he can play high post and be an offense threat that draws a big defender away from the basket. The only problems is teams don't go for that. Even Detroit got a few 3 sec fouls called on them because they were content to just sit in the lane and make us beat them from outside. If our shooters are hitting, then we destroy this plan... however, sometimes they don't hit. Personally, I think Craw is being misused. Every time he touches it, he's heaving a shot from outside. Craw's best work comes when he's attacking the rim. So does Smoove. We should be sending Craw and Smoove in at the same time. Smoove come in from the baseline to clean up or to catch the baseline dunk. We have added some ball movement and that has been good, but we're not trusting it 100%.

[Diesel]

Two more suggestions:

1. Demand more of Zaza. He's too inconsistent on the def boards.

2. Stop playing Marvin at PF. He's not got PF instincts whatsoever.

Zaza is foul prone.

Marvin is more PF than Sf.

As an expert on Marvin, let me tell you his strength. Throwing his big butt around and grabbing a missed shot trying to get a tip in or putback.

Marvin's offensive ability has been wildly overexaggerated for years. We're seeing the truth now. The truth is that Marvin fumbles the ball as a ball handler. He shoots a good set shot jumper but he cannot create for himself. He's actually worse at creating for himself than Chillz was. Chillz was a better ball handler and could attack the goal. Marvin doesn't. We have called it a lack of aggressiveness, but who knows exactly what it was. He's more suited for PF in Wood's scheme because wood's PFs are highpost most of the time... Defensively he's 240. 240, can pound with PFs. Marvin's problem is the same as Smoove's... If you're high post, you're not getting offensive boards. Moroever, on defense, Marvin doesn't grab those either. There is no reason for this.

[Diesel]

My answer is along the same line as nire. Stop the switching defense and place Josh inside. I would play a 1-3-1 zone defense. The beauty of the1-3-1 is that we have the guards that it takes who can be both guard and forward defenders. My middle person would be Josh and this gives him a good look on defense to see who's man is coming towards the goal. We can run Zone 100% of the time, that is why I would also run some half court traps. I remember we did this one during Wood's tenure. He went away from it, but I think it's a good thing. I don't care about professional respect... it's about winning. A halfcourt trap would have stopped Anthony Johnson. It always has. Lenny Wilkens used to use a trap to funnel players into Deke. I'm sure that has to be a way to funnel people into a Josh Smith blocked shot.

[Buzzard]

Zaza is foul prone.

Marvin is more PF than Sf.

As an expert on Marvin, let me tell you his strength. Throwing his big butt around and grabbing a missed shot trying to get a tip in or putback.

You were at one time an expert on Smoove also; who ranted for four years that our best PF was really a SF that would soon be able to shoot a three. I think I will continue to see Marvin as a good outside shooting and rebounding three; instead of a bigger version garbage player like Chilz was.

Does not mean I do not think he could fill in at the four; just think Marvin is a better SF than PF...

Edited December 1, 2009 by Buzzard

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It has very little to do with the switching defense.

Just watch the next game. The only one that boxes out his man, is Horford. No other person on the team consistently does that. If Smoove did it, he'd easily average 11 rpg. If Marvin did it, he'd average at least 7 rpg.

What they'll do, is pur an arm on somebody or lazily lean on their man. Then when the rebound comes off, they'll sometimes get out hustled. They rely on their athleticism too much to get rebounds.

The reason why Big Ben killed us on the boards, is because he ALWAYS puts a body on somebody. We don't constantly do that, even when Woody is motioning for it on the sidelines.

So if they'd get into the habit of boxing out ( block out ), that'll at least stop the offensive rebounding parade.

The other solution, is simply for the guards to start crashing the boards. But when they do it, even they have to put a body on someone.

Marvin is by far the laziest rebounder on the team when he plays SF. When he plays PF, he's much better, even though he doesn't box out all the time. JJ rebounds decently when he plays SF, but lazily at SG. Bibby sometimes will scrap for a loose rebound.

[Diesel]

It has very little to do with the switching defense.

Just watch the next game. The only one that boxes out his man, is Horford. No other person on the team consistently does that. If Smoove did it, he'd easily average 11 rpg. If Marvin did it, he'd average at least 7 rpg.

What they'll do, is pur an arm on somebody or lazily lean on their man. Then when the rebound comes off, they'll sometimes get out hustled. They rely on their athleticism too much to get rebounds.

The reason why Big Ben killed us on the boards, is because he ALWAYS puts a body on somebody. We don't constantly do that, even when Woody is motioning for it on the sidelines.

So if they'd get into the habit of boxing out ( block out ), that'll at least stop the offensive rebounding parade.

The other solution, is simply for the guards to start crashing the boards. But when they do it, even they have to put a body on someone.

Marvin is by far the laziest rebounder on the team when he plays SF. When he plays PF, he's much better, even though he doesn't box out all the time. JJ rebounds decently when he plays SF, but lazily at SG. Bibby sometimes will scrap for a loose rebound.

It wasn't just Big Ben for Detroit, it was also those hustle rebounds by that swedish dude Jerebko and Maxielle. They just hustled harder than us and we made them look like a bunch of Rodmans. You're right though.... Our guys are plain lazy on the rebound. I don't know why.

[spotatl]

I'm not sure that the Hawks have a single player who is an above average rebounder for their position. Josh Smith hurts the team badly on the defensive boards because he gets out of position so much going for blocks. You need the SF to compensate and hit the boards harder and Marvin simply isn't getting the job done this season.

Zaza isn't the answer- he has always been strong on the offensive glass but not so much on the defensive side. Really its just that Smith needs to pick his spots better on when to go for the block and when he does Marvin and Horford need to work harder.

[macdaddy]

I like the idea of playing zone more but i wouldn't do it 100% of the time. I think switching is still very effective for us but combine it with the zone so they can't plan on the switch it would be more effective.

The two ideas that immediately to mind are:

- play the bench - its tiring rebounding consistently for 40 minutes. Let Joe Smith and Collins and Mo do some rebounding

- guards need to box their man out on D. I don't think Smith and Horford are the issue. Horford is consistent and Smoove is consistently wild which can be good. It just doesn't work if the guards are letting the rest of the team flood the lane.

[spotatl]

MacDaddy- you have to be kidding me. Its not guards who are killing the Hawks with offensive rebounds.

Against Detroit Wallace had 11 offensive rebounds, Jerebko had 5 and Maxiell had 4.

Against Orlando Howard had 6.

Against New Orleans West had 5 and Okafor had 3.

How on earth can you blame the offensive rebounds the Hawks are giving up on the guards?

[spotatl]

And I'll once again say that I love the switching defense late in the shotclock. But early in the shotclock its just betting for a smart team to be able to set the exact matchup they want. Watch when the Spurs play the Hawks. They will come down and set a screen to get Parker matched up on whoever they think he can most easily exploit and then they reset the offense and he just eats them alive. Switch late and fight through the screen early!

[AHF]

Playing zone rarely improves a team's rebounding because when you plan man against a defender, you are in good position to block out. When you play zone, you generally give up more offensive rebounds because you are not in a good rebounding position. So I am skeptical that playing zone will help our rebounding woes.

[Diesel]

I like the idea of playing zone more but i wouldn't do it 100% of the time. I think switching is still very effective for us but combine it with the zone so they can't plan on the switch it would be more effective.

The two ideas that immediately to mind are:

- play the bench - its tiring rebounding consistently for 40 minutes. Let Joe Smith and Collins and Mo do some rebounding

- guards need to box their man out on D. I don't think Smith and Horford are the issue. Horford is consistent and Smoove is consistently wild which can be good. It just doesn't work if the guards are letting the rest of the team flood the lane.

I think the issue is Smith, Marvin for the most part. Let's face it, we're not being outrebounded by Gaurds, we're being outrebounded by Bigs. Maybe Smoove is out of position... and in that a Zone would do wonders, however, the other thing is our guys needs some want to. We don't have any want to in games where we're being pushed around physically. I've seen Smoove snag 12, 15, even 17 rebounds during a game. However, I've not seen him perform as well against a strong physical rebounder. Not that he is outclassed, it's that he defers. Sometimes, either by design or by will, you will see Smoove on the high post perimeter area... out of position for rebounds. I can write a thesis on Marvin's lack of want to... but the Detroit game defines it well. There were several times, a Detroit Piston scored and Marvin was right there under the goal. He just did nothing. His Rebounding is just as lack luster. So Marvin doesn't make up for Smoove and Smoove is out of position (especially against good rebounding teams).

[Diesel]

And I'll once again say that I love the switching defense late in the shotclock. But early in the shotclock its just betting for a smart team to be able to set the exact matchup they want. Watch when the Spurs play the Hawks. They will come down and set a screen to get Parker matched up on whoever they think he can most easily exploit and then they reset the offense and he just eats them alive. Switch late and fight through the screen early!

Spot, You're spot on. Woody has implemented a Lazy man's defense. Lazy in that we don't fight through screens. We don't rebound like there's no tommorow. We don't matchup. It's embarrassing when Ben Wallace is running the give and go on us. We're making Ben Wallace look like Lebron out there.

A big part of this is Bibby, but another is that we just are too lazy to fight.

When is our Kevin Loughery going to come along and tighten up our defense?

[Buzzard]

Playing zone rarely improves a team's rebounding because when you plan man against a defender, you are in good position to block out. When you play zone, you generally give up more offensive rebounds because you are not in a good rebounding position. So I am skeptical that playing zone will help our rebounding woes.

Yes AHF! That would only leave Horf in the paint; which is the same problem our switching D has now. Woody needs to stop switching so much; its to predictable and teams keep making us switch till they get the exact matchups they want. Smoove ends up with his back to the board facing a pg or sg half the time; with Bibby on a guy he cannot possibly block out.

To much switching, not enough man, and no suprise 1/2 court traps. This is Woodys defensive mind.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Buzzard

[Buzzard]

Two solutions immediately come to mind:

1) Stop the switching defense, which often puts our big men out on the perimeter and leaves our smallest guards to box out opposing big men. At the very least, don't switch when it's Bibby/Jamal/Teague's man who is getting screened.

2) Run a system that doesn't put Josh on the perimeter watching JJ/Jamal/Bibby jack up jumpers on 60% of our possessions. When he's near the basket, Josh is our best offensive rebounder. The problem is that he isn't near the basket often enough.

Great points nire. I just don't see why Woody refuses to change up when our PF is being drawn out 20 ft from the basket 60 to 70 % of the time. Its one thing to play man and have to deal with a Rasheed, which takes both PF's out there. Its totally different to have a PG or SG take our PF out there.

[Atlantaholic]

Yes AHF! That would only leave Horf in the paint; which is the same problem our switching D has now. Woody needs to stop switching so much; its to predictable and teams keep making us switch till they get the exact matchups they want. Smoove ends up with his back to the board facing a pg or sg half the time; with Bibby on a guy he cannot possibly block out.

To much switching, not enough man, and no suprise 1/2 court traps. This is Woodys defensive mind.

Switching should be a change of pace thing, not a defensive philosophy

[Sothron]

You guys do realize much of our switching is due to covering up how horribly slow Bibby has gotten on defense I trust. We switch or zone thanks to Bibby and we have to extend our bigs far too often to try and cover for him. If Bibby could actually defend the ball and his man we could play straight up man to man and our defense would be better.