Rate Josh Smith as a defender

[NineOhTheRino]

thought about adding more categories (transition, high block, low block, etc...) but as someone that hates long polls I decided against it. Plus some of these categories can seem a bit redundant so I tried to pick the most distinct ones.

This relates to a discussion I heard driving home last night in which a radio guy suggested trading Josh to free up cash to sign Jamal. I'm not touching that but I do think it's a little lazy to base an opinion solely on offensive production.

Edited April 26, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[hawkman]

I know Josh has rubbed a lot of people the wrong the way with his play on the offensive end, but his defense is top notch. He even looks like he's improved his man to man perimeter defense while still providing help defense. I think Hedo would agree. Josh has hounded him pretty good at the SF spot.

Edited April 26, 2011 by hawkman

[macdaddy]

I just don't see how you rate him an average on ball defender unless you're asking him to guard CP3 or something. We've seen the guy handle Dwade and we've seen him handle Duncan.

[Admin]

I just don't see how you rate him an average on ball defender unless you're asking him to guard CP3 or something. We've seen the guy handle Dwade and we've seen him handle Duncan.

Because just as he does (or doesn't do) with everything else, he doesn't do it consistently. If he plays excellent defense when he feels like it but plays average and/or lazy defense when he doesn't feel like playing defense then to me that averages out to being average.

[Supporter]

He gets lazy sometimes and goes for steals, other than that I am completely fine with his effort. You can't expect a guy like Josh to guard the quick 4's in the league, because he is not quick enough.

[Admin]

He gets lazy sometimes and goes for steals, other than that I am completely fine with his effort. You can't expect a guy like Josh to guard the quick 4's in the league, because he is not quick enough.

I don't agree with that at all. Smith grew up as a SG and came into the league as a SG and is really a SF playing PF so I absolutely expect him to be able to keep up with any PF in the league. There are some SF's that I can see him struggling with guarding because they're much lighter and quicker than him but there's no excuse for him to have trouble with PF's being too quick for him.

[Supporter]

I don't agree with that at all. Smith grew up as a SG and came into the league as a SG and is really a SF playing PF so I absolutely expect him to be able to keep up with any PF in the league. There are some SF's that I can see him struggling with guarding because they're much lighter and quicker than him but there's no excuse for him to have trouble with PF's being too quick for him.

Oops my bad, I meant quick 3's! and why can't I edit my post, is there a time limit or something?

Edited April 26, 2011 by Supporter

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Excellent help defender

Average perimeter defender

Below average on the ball defender

Above average off the ball defender

Just to nitpick, the poll isn't symmetrical. You needed a 5th option "poor", to offset "excellent". But you did address the right categories to assess his defense.

It's kind of hard to praise Smith's defense this year, seeing that he wasn't the same impactful player that he was last year on D. Less steals, less blocks, and he's had trouble holding people down this year. He's been decent in this series versus Turkoglu. But I have to give him low marks on his on the ball defense, because instead of keeping his man from scoring, he'll give the man room to drive so that he can go for the block shot. Instead of making the fundamental play, he wants to make the spectacular play. His mentality is that of a shot blocker, not as a lockdown defender. That's why he gets high marks as a help defender, and lower marks as a man defender.

[NineOhTheRino]

Excellent help defender

Average perimeter defender

Below average on the ball defender

Above average off the ball defender

Just to nitpick, the poll isn't symmetrical. You needed a 5th option "poor", to offset "excellent". But you did address the right categories to assess his defense.

It's kind of hard to praise Smith's defense this year, seeing that he wasn't the same impactful player that he was last year on D. Less steals, less blocks, and he's had trouble holding people down this year. He's been decent in this series versus Turkoglu. But I have to give him low marks on his on the ball defense, because instead of keeping his man from scoring, he'll give the man room to drive so that he can go for the block shot. Instead of making the fundamental play, he wants to make the spectacular play. His mentality is that of a shot blocker, not as a lockdown defender. That's why he gets high marks as a help defender, and lower marks as a man defender.

added "Poor" but I seriously doubt anyone uses it.

[benhillboy]

Very, very good. Would be great easily if he boxed out more/ better, was a little quicker of foot laterally, and never blocked less than 3 shots per.

On a side note, all of the Hawks's perimeter defenders have been doing an outstanding job of closing out shooters and stopping quick instead of jumping wildly and taking themselves out of the play, or even worse, bailing the shooter out with a bs foul call.

[Admin]

Oops my bad, I meant quick 3's! and why can't I edit my post, is there a time limit or something?

Oh okay well that I can agree with ... and yes there is a time limit on editing posts, I think it's 15 minutes or so. Don't want people going back and changing their posts after the fact when they've made a statement and need to live with that statement. :scratchhead:

[capstone21]

I think he is an excellent weak side defender but after that he is just average. He doesn't stay in front of his man and I hate how he sometimes lets players drive by him so he can try to block them instead of just preventing the drive the begin with.

Steals are a very overrated defensive stat as they really mean you gamble a lot. If you miss the steal then your opponent now is open to do what he wants

[coachx]

Only 5 of 15 voters say #5's perimeter defense is below average.

Really ?

Edited April 26, 2011 by coachx

[Admin]

Only 5 of 15 voters say #5's perimeter defense is below average.

Really ?

Has 80% of the board lost their mind ?

Mike Bibby's perimeter defense is below average. Would you honestly say that Josh Smith is that bad as a perimeter defender or would you say it's fair to say he's at least slightly better than Bibby and should be considered average at worst?

[capstone21]

Mike Bibby's perimeter defense is below average. Would you honestly say that Josh Smith is that bad as a perimeter defender or would you say it's fair to say he's at least slightly better than Bibby and should be considered average at worst?

I would consider Bibby's perimeter d to be poor or non-existent but you bring up a good point.

[coachx]

Mike Bibby's perimeter defense is below average. Would you honestly say that Josh Smith is that bad as a perimeter defender or would you say it's fair to say he's at least slightly better than Bibby and should be considered average at worst?

We simply have different standards if simply being a better perimeter defender then Bibby automatically makes you at least average. I believe you can be a better perimeter defender then Bibby but still be below average. People have blown by Crawford, Bibby, and Smith all season long.

Smith's perimeter defense is below average in my mind. In my mind perimeter defense = on ball defense around the perimeter.

His help defense is excellent.

His off the ball defense is excellent.

His post defense is a little above average.

Edited April 26, 2011 by coachx

[JackB1]

Josh is not a good man on man defender. He comes from the weak side to block shots because the person taking the shot doesn't see it coming.

Josh can jump very high, but is slow side to side and often times looks almost as clumsy as Marvin.

Josh is a GREAT shot blocker....that's it. There's more to defense than that.

[Admin]

Josh is not a good man on man defender. He comes from the weak side to block shots because the person taking the shot doesn't see it coming.

Josh can jump very high, but is slow side to side and often times looks almost as clumsy as Marvin.

Josh is a GREAT shot blocker....that's it. There's more to defense than that.

I don't think many, including Turk and the "experts" on TV, would agree with that but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

[Crank]

We simply have different standards if simply being a better perimeter defender then Bibby automatically makes you at least average. I believe you can be a better perimeter defender then Bibby but still be below average. People have blown by Crawford, Bibby, and Smith all season long.

Smith's perimeter defense is below average in my mind. In my mind perimeter defense = on ball defense around the perimeter.

His help defense is excellent.

His off the ball defense is excellent.

His post defense is a little above average.

People have blown by everyone on this team at one time another .

Everytime I see one of these threads touting someones defense that player gets his butt smoked all game .

There simply are no lockdown defenders in the league there are simply players who can make you work harder than others .

There are no more PippensJordans ,Paytons etc who can remove a player from the equation . For as much talk of Artests defense I saw Ariza eat his lunch all night and Ariza is not known for his offense .

Team defense is the way to go and teams that can get this philosophy installed and ran properly tend to do very well.

I think Joshs defense is overall pretty good but hes very undisciplined and gambles too much .

[MaceCase]

thought about adding more categories (transition, high block, low block, etc...) but as someone that hates long polls I decided against it. Plus some of these categories can seem a bit redundant so I tried to pick the most distinct ones.

This relates to a discussion I heard driving home last night in which a radio guy suggested trading Josh to free up cash to sign Jamal. I'm not touching that but I do think it's a little lazy to base an opinion solely on offensive production.

:spiteful:

Sorry, just needed an excuse to use that face.

On to seriousness- I rate him as above average to excellent on help defense because I feel that also ties him to off ball defense where I consider him average to below average. He can help a teammate erase their mistake or just help them cleanup but at times he's looking to his teammate and the ball whether they need the help or not and that leave's Smoove's man to get open out of his sight. He has a knack and timing at times to jump passing lanes but I noticed that get affected by his belly *ahem* knee* during the season. He won't deny position or the ball much either but rather try to lull the opponent into thinking there's an open passing lane instead.

Perimeter I rate him as poor, he lacks lateral quickness, a proper stance even, and takes bad angles allowing driving lanes where he either tries to reach for the ball and whifs or tries to get the block. He can't navigate screens correctly as he tries to go through them rather than around or under (You will notice that LD has called for a switch between him and Al every time Hedo calls for a pick) and he has this annoying habit where instead of putting a hand up on a jumper he will instead gently swipe at the shooter's shin while he leaks out. Seriously, what is that? I hate it more than Bibby's late contests where the ball is halfway to the rim and Bibby is throwing jab palms at the defender's face.

I'm going to take on ball as meaning the post now even though I may have voted differently when reading it. I'd say he's average to above average. Like I said before he won't deny the ball and will give up position but now he won't try to go for the steal anymore once his man is posting. This was a very annoying habit he had in previous years where he'd try to reach around and steal the ball while his man was 3 feet from the basket, suffice to say they were very costly gambles. Nowadays he plays his man straight up, uses his added girth and get's low in position so they don't overpower him, doesn't bite on any fakes and get's up quick enough to contest all of their shots. He really has improved in this aspect but he just needs to add the box out to it because he often feels his job and defense is done after the contest and not when the ball is secured.