Hawks nearing the midpoint of the season...What needs fixing...

[DocWilkins]

Howdy Hawks fans...

Last night was a tough loss and a whole lot more of the same. I feel like I have been more furstrated with this group than years past and instead of just venting I wanted to get some opinions on what needs to be done to take this group to the next level.

My idea is fairly simple...Marvin needs to be pulled from the starting lineup. I like Marvin personally and believe him to be an adequate player but it is time to wave the white flag on this Billy Knight bust. For the life of me i can not understand why he was resigned...Can't create his own shot and the poor guys has zero handles...I belive marvin is the worst starting SF in the league. Coach Drew just has to do something to get more production from the 3 spot and Marv aint the answer...

I could go on and on but wanted to see what everyone else thought...The Master of the obvious has spoken!!

[gt4403]

As much as it pains me to admit, I don't believe there is a whole lot that can be done. The team is too poorly built in both skill sets and dollars spent to ever compete for a championship. They have the wrong players playing together and way too much money spent on players that don't peform to their contracts. I'm not one of the fans who says the ownership is cheap although there are some examples where they have seemed that way. My biggest issue is how they spent their money. They didn't really make sound business decisions that would most benefit the team down the road. It seems nobody in the organization has a direction.

As far as what can be done. Us fans are going to have to be patient again because the most likely next step is the team will eventually be sold. I don't think anyone believes that they just changed their minds and decided to stay in for the long haul. The real question is when. I doubt they will make any changes that might look like they are starting over since this will make it more difficult to sale. I see the team not changing a whole lot until the new owners are on board and then things may happen swiftly. If it happens say in the next year, you will have several players getting close to the end of their contracts making it much easier to make changes. Even someone like Joe can be traded with a couple of years left if the team he goes to thinks they can get a title. Our team can rebuild quickly if they make good moves which is something we as fans are not used to seeing. Their are too many examples in the NBA of teams going from bottom dwellers to the playoffs to believe it will take 5 or 6 years to be relevant again. For goodness sake half the teams make the playoffs. With the right moves, the team could be back where they are pretty soon but better constructed. Let's be honest, the only reason it took so long the first time is our ownership was attrocious in the draft basically wasting picks every year.

[Diesel]

Sometimes to go forward, you have to go back...

Us going back in my mind is making a trade that changes the core.

Horf/Marvin to Phoenix for Gortat, Childress, and Frye.

There are big advantages that this holds for Phoenix.

It gives them a 2 time allstar PF.

It gives them room for a Nash trade.

It takes away their two worst contracts.

For us...

We get a real rebounder in Gortat.

We also get a rebounding Foward/Slasher in Childress.

It focuses our win expectation to win now because we go after this season with a full compliment to our team.

Maybe we don't have the PG to make it work, but if we sure up our frontcourt with rebounding and defense, I think we're more competitive.

Yes, we lose Horf and his infectousness, but I believe we get tougher in the frontcourt.

[Randy]

I'm afraid I'm in agreement with the "not much can be done" post. At least for this season. We could makes some trades, but I'm afraid once we get a close up look at the new guys we will see there was a reason they were traded.

For the long run, we need to draft a center - even if its a guy who may be a bust. Look at guys like Splitter in SA, or Leur in Milwaukee - bigs that would probably (with time) be an upgrade over ZaZa. Look at Hibbard - after a number of years he's becoming a good player. Then we need to resolve the Josh/Al/Marvin situation. Keep one of 2 of the three.

[benhillboy]

Marvin is really a hindrance. I was surprised to see that he averages almost 10 and 6, yet his impact is actually less than that looking at the games. He always tricks us early into thinking he'll have a notable season, then poof. Invisible man. There is so much to fix if you wish for Title Contention, but getting some value back for Marvin would be a miraculous, great start. A solid, 20-minute defender should make half of what Marvin makes. On well-built franchises, that's the case.

Edited February 15, 2012 by benhillboy

[Plainview1981]

Sometimes to go forward, you have to go back...

Us going back in my mind is making a trade that changes the core.

Horf/Marvin to Phoenix for Gortat, Childress, and Frye.

There are big advantages that this holds for Phoenix.

It gives them a 2 time allstar PF.

It gives them room for a Nash trade.

It takes away their two worst contracts.

For us...

We get a real rebounder in Gortat.

We also get a rebounding Foward/Slasher in Childress.

It focuses our win expectation to win now because we go after this season with a full compliment to our team.

Maybe we don't have the PG to make it work, but if we sure up our frontcourt with rebounding and defense, I think we're more competitive.

Yes, we lose Horf and his infectousness, but I believe we get tougher in the frontcourt.

It's time to admit this team failed and the best thing to do is blow it up and start over. Nash isn't going to get this team over the hump. He couldn't get over the hump with Amare and that talented Suns team. He's not going to get this team over the hump. These other trade your suggesting isn't going to bring a different result. Childress is a footnote and he is lucky he is still in the league, Gortat hasn't done anything either. Frye is another soft player that isn't worth playing.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Hotlanta1981

[Diesel]

Marvin is really a hindrance. I was surprised to see that he averages almost 10 and 6, yet his impact is actually less than that looking at the games. He always tricks us early into thinking he'll have a notable season, then poof. Invisible man. There is so much to fix if you wish for Title Contention, but getting some value back for Marvin would be a miraculous, great start.

Many lies have been told on Marvin. First he was getting better year by year. Then he was the glue guy. Then he was really going to be better this year. Then he was "has been injured all this time but he's getting fixed." Then he was our best PER player. Now, we realize that he's the most unimpactful player in the history of this great sport. Not a lot that can be done with that.

It's time to admit this team failed and the best thing to do is blow it up and start over. Nash isn't going to get this team over the hump. He couldn't get over the hump with Amare and that talented Suns team. He's not going to get this team over the hump.

Nash???

[Plainview1981]

Many lies have been told on Marvin. First he was getting better year by year. Then he was the glue guy. Then he was really going to be better this year. Then he was "has been injured all this time but he's getting fixed." Then he was our best PER player. Now, we realize that he's the most unimpactful player in the history of this great sport. Not a lot that can be done with that.

Nash???

I know you were talking about Matt G... But even Nash wouldn't fix this team. This team is like a bad seed.... It just turned out wrong. This franchise is in such bad shape that even hometown guys don't want to come here. We need new ownership, coaches a new GM and everything. Tear this franchise apart through and trough and start over. Anything else is just a waste of time.

[macdaddy]

Having Gortat would make a huge difference i think but it'd be nice to have another real scorer at the 3. As far as Nash goes i think for this year we could make an exciting run with Nash and teague as our pgs. Nash on a good eastern conference team that can play some defense would be much different than him trying to lead a team through the west playoffs.

Anyway, I think just to show that the front office has a pulse we need to do something. Otherwise this will be either the most predictable playoff run or a disasterous one. And this team needs to generate some excitement soon...like 2 years ago.

[willthepureshooter]

Nash is old and isn't worth trading for if you ask me. At 38 years of age, he has about 1.5 seasons left in the tank. I wouldn't take that chance.

[AHF]

Many lies have been told on Marvin. First he was getting better year by year.

This one was true. He did get better every season until we resigned him and his play fell off a cliff.

Then he was the glue guy. Then he was really going to be better this year. Then he was "has been injured all this time but he's getting fixed." Then he was our best PER player. Now, we realize that he's the most unimpactful player in the history of this great sport. Not a lot that can be done with that.

Some of these were never lies so much as hopes (at least for 98% of the Squawkers), like hoping that Marvin could come back from his back surgery and be improved. Some are straw men, like Marvin being our best PER player (no one has ever claimed that to my knowledge and it is obviously not true). Others are outright lies like Marvin being the glue guy or the most unimpactful player in the history of the NBA.

[macdaddy]

Nash is old and isn't worth trading for if you ask me. At 38 years of age, he has about 1.5 seasons left in the tank. I wouldn't take that chance.

I would for the right deal (i guess anyone would). We'd probably only have him for .5 seasons anyway. The dude beat us pretty handily a few weeks ago. I think the benefits are (in reverse order):

1. he's a major offensive weapon for other teams to deal with
   
2. he'll get better looks for Joe and others
   
3. he will put butts in the seats!
   
4. he will provide real leadership
   

[Wretch]

Outside of a major trade or blowing up the team...

• Balance the Motion Offense^TM with good ol' 1 on 1, isolation. Ball movement is great, but I think too much of it is spreading the wealth too far. The ball ends up in Smoove's hands for a jumper WAY too often for my liking. I think it's also working negatively on JJ. True, we can't iso him every play, but we can't have the ball bouncing away from him every play to end up in the hands of Smoove or Marvin.
  
• Set a limit on the amount of jumpers Smoove can take...I know, I know.. . But it has to be done. Josh needs to be using the glass more and working on that left handing hook going left.
  
• Set Teague free. What do we stand to lose? Just set the kid free and make him the #2 option out there. We need to not worry so much about trying to mold him into JKidd or Deron Williams...and just let him shoot. The assists will come. Teague needs shots. Just cut him loose and give him the green light. Smoove should not be our #2 option.
  
• Attitude. I wish we could just change this...but when you have the same core together for so long, they kind of develop a personality. I think this more than anything is why we get blown out so much and why we are so up and down. This is essentially the same lottery team from 5 years ago. Same free agents. Same draft picks. This team has never been taught to win...not by a player that has been there nor by a coach that has been there. Need some attitude.
  
• Time to see what Teague/Kirk/JJ can do as a starting 5. What do we stand to lose?
  
• More Ivan. lol...I dunno, just threw that in there. You can see the hunger in that dude. He's playing to stay in the league. Hustle like that can go a long way....especially if dude has something real to offer.
  

I don't think any of that will get us in the ECF's...but it should make the post season interesting.

[DJlaysitup]

Marvin is really a hindrance. I was surprised to see that he averages almost 10 and 6, yet his impact is actually less than that looking at the games. He always tricks us early into thinking he'll have a notable season, then poof. Invisible man...

Have to agree ben. I think we are basically "giving away" 1/2 a position on the floor with Marvin at SF at this point. Explosiveness is not there, defense is average, can't seem to finish at the rim with anybody around, perimeter shooting is also fairly average. Sure he's 6-9, but I don't see that matters much when he doesn't play that big.

So - I tried to think of a way to compare Marvin around the league without doing massive statistical analysis on my own. I figured - why not check Marvin's position in the 8-team fantasy league I'm in. Sure, it's not totally scientific - but all of us in the league want to win and we pay attention to production to try and get a leg up on the other guys.

We have 18 active SFs in our league. That counts a few SF/PFs - but I didn't count SG/SFs - to be fair to Marvin. I took into account minutes played. Marvin isn't among the 18 SFs actually on a team.

Looking at available (F/A) SFs in the league - Marvin is ranked as #6. So...Marvin sits at #24 using that analysis model. Then - looking at teams that are playing SG/SFs at SF consistently - that adds another two.

So using this (admittedly borderline) method - Marvin comes out as the #26 rated starting SF in the NBA.

I really think we are hurting at the SF position (and have been for a couple years) - especially for a smaller team that wants to run. Marvin is an anchor - in a heavy, holding us back - way.

Add to that - I don't feel like I am seeing the "flashes of what might be" much anymore.

I would trade him straight up for Chillz at this point.

Edited February 16, 2012 by DJlaysitup

[cam1218]

There are a lot of things that need to be fixed. The ASG (or whatever they are called now) own the Hawks, so what is new? I think we all know what our owners will not do, so there is only one thing we really need to look at.

January 11th, Horford's last played game.

Horford has been out for over a month now. Hopefully we will be getting back a 2 time all star C/PF in a couple of months. That will be our "huge" addition. Truthfully, I think we sometimes forget how much we miss him.

[AHF]

I would trade him straight up for Chillz at this point.

Where does Chillz rank in your league? I think that would be going from dumb to dumber.

[DJlaysitup]

Where does Chillz rank in your league? I think that would be going from dumb to dumber.

You are right - that's out of frustration and my desire to see explosiveness out of the SF position.

But hey...that's DJ...make a solid argument and finish the post with something stupid

[Diesel]

Where does Chillz rank in your league? I think that would be going from dumb to dumber.

If taking back CHillz can get us Gortat without giving up Hinrich... I'm good with that!!

[atlbraves93]

As much as I like JJ, we need to use the amnesty clause on him this offseason and see if we can make any noise in the free agent market. He is getting paid way too much for these 12 point efforts that he puts up every other night. Let's see if we can swing a deal for Marvin. We need to get more bang for our buck.

[Joker]

Trading Horford or Smith at this point for anyone less than Howard is stupid. We need to trade for O.J. Mayo. We need someone with superstar potential who could fit in our system like Jeremy Lin.