This thing is over at this point: Hawks will make playoffs

[HawkItus]

Another useless playoff exit. SMH. The deepest draft in a decade and we're going to miss out on it.

Umm.....did we lose our pick or something? If this is the deepest draft in a decade, we should be able to find a gem at our spot.....right?

[Vol4ever]

Haha Kg01. So Ferry built the Spurs? I believe Ferry was fired in Cleveland and he had Lebron?

In comparison to the Hawks, lets see how long Boston and the Lakers are down.....................................it wont be long.

[SalvorMallow]

Although it happened prior to 2004, it cannot be ignored that the Spurs who won the title in 2005 and 2007 drafted Duncan top 5. And the Heat drafted Wade top 5 in 2004 which is an essential key to there 3 (soon to be 4) titles since. It's extremely remote that those teams win those titles without those picks.

Duncan was drafted in 97 by an already extremely good Spurs team that had David Robinson, and of course the hall of fame coach didn't hurt. What about now, though? Duncan has about the same stats as Horford but 2 of their big three are late draft picks. Tony parker was drafted 28th in 2001 and Manu Ginobili was drafted 57th in 1997. A string of good decisions and fantastic coaching has kept them in championship contention.

The Heat drafted Wade in 2003. The Heat are probably the best example of going from a mediocre team to a really good team by drafting a player, but if they hadn't made the free agency moves that they did (i.e. adding Shaq, Gary Payton, Antoine Walker, and Jason Williams), they would never have had a championship. Add to that the fact that they had a hall of fame coach and you have a recipe for success that extends far beyond the draft. Just drafting a good player does not a good team make.

What about the Utah Jazz in 98? Malone was drafted at number 13 and Stockton at 16. They also had a hall of fame coach.

Or how about the Los Angeles Lakers? They traded the 1989 26th pick to get Kobe Bryant, added a bunch of talent through trade a FAcy and of course, the hall of fame coach to get it done. They have won more championships than any other team in in the past 20 years and they sure as hell haven't done it through the draft.

I hope you're beginning to see the trend. The draft is an important piece of the puzzle, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the top 5, and drafting in the top 5 doesn't guarantee you a championship any more than making the playoffs every year. The lost revenues from tanking hamstrings a teams ability to get free agents and make big trades to get the pieces needed to put a good team together, not to mention purposely tanking fosters a losing culture and makes your good players want to get off of your team, and drives away free agents.

What Ferry is trying to do is build a hard-working, winning culture that attracts free agents while still maintaining the flexibility to make moves to improve the team. If you ask me, or most of the analysts who do any research on tanking, that is the best way to go.

No, I have some heavy sarcasm going to troll the anti-tankers a bit. That said, I'm sure Ferry wanted the challenge of building a contender without the best player in the game so him getting fired from Cleveland was an elaborate jedi mind trick none of us understands yet. It'll hit us around 2016 or so.

We agree on the Lakers/Celts aka the best-run organizations in the history of the NBA. They clearly haven't figured out how to stay on top so why mimic what they've done?

The Lakers and Celtics haven't figured out how to stay on top? smh...

[Wretch]

If you want a contender, then you are going to need top tier talent. Anyone that would argue against that simply does not know basketball. You can call it a star, franchise player, mega-super-duper-celebrity all pro...the bottom line is that the best players lead teams to contention.

That kind of talent is what the Hawks lack. It doesn't matter what Charlotte does or how old Duncan is or how long the Wizards have been in the lottery or whether or not Kobe comes back from injury. All of that is irrelevant. Until we have a core, of top tier talent we will not advance past the 2nd round baring a miracle. Anyone that would argue against that is simply a hopeless homer.

The question then becomes, how do we get top tier talent?

Free agency? Does not look good for us.

Trade? Who do we trade to bring back a talent the quality of Durant/LeBron/Paul George/D12?

In house? Who on our roster do we hope is on that top level of talent?

Draft? You've got like a less than 2% chance of landing an All-Star quality talent outside of the lottery. If you don't think so, do the research yourself instead of just drooling over the handful of gems like Rondo, Parker, & Millsap amongst the massive heap of NBA washouts and pine riders drafted late 1st and 2nd round.

Statistically, the odds are better fishing in the lottery. So if you despise that route so much...then you are a hypocrite for putting your hope in anywhere else in the draft. Which also removes the final avenue for franchise changing quality talent.

Please tell me how this team is supposed to land it's anchor without the top of the draft, without having a marquee player to attract the top FA's, and without the assets to make a blockbuster trade.None of us want to see the team lose and be terrible. Some of us, like myself who have been cheering for this team for nearly 30 years, DO want to see the team rebuild and contend. It's not impossible to build a team this way, but you can be sure that we are pinning our hopes on some shitty odds while ignoring a prime opportunity to, at a minimum, secure highly coveted assets.

All for the sake of being "competitive."

[Wretch]

What Ferry is trying to do is build a hard-working, winning culture that attracts free agents while still maintaining the flexibility to make moves to improve the team.

^^ This is not what is attractive to free agents.

This is:

Edited March 18, 2014 by Wretch

[ATLSmith]

Although it happened prior to 2004, it cannot be ignored that the Spurs who won the title in 2005 and 2007 drafted Duncan top 5. And the Heat drafted Wade top 5 in 2004 which is an essential key to there 3 (soon to be 4) titles since. It's extremely remote that those teams win those titles without those picks.

And the Heat don't win those titles without Shaq, Bosh, and James. All of which were free agent signings, not draft picks.

And the Hawks have a top 5 pick on the team right now with Horford.

Wretch, Howard was attracted to the Rockets because Harden was there (to some degree), but what attracted Harden in the first place? Also, Chris Paul was traded to the Clippers, he wasn't "lured" there in free agency. I mean, the Clippers historically sucked before he got there.

Anyway, count me in as someone who doesn't mind the Hawks making the playoffs. I will be going to a playoff game.

[AHF]

You're right, because drafting great players means you're guaranteed a title. Just ask New Orleans when they drafted Chris Paul, or Cleveland when they drafted Lebron James, or Orlando when they drafted Dwight Howard, or Portland when they drafted Greg Oden, or Chicago when they drafted Derrick Rose, ...oh...wait a second...

New Orleans with Chris Paul: 4-3 Second Round Loss Last Equaled by Hawks in 1988

Cleveland with Lebron James: NBA Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta Hawks

Orlando with Dwight Howard: NBA Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta Hawks

Chicago Bulls: Eastern Conference Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta HAwks

So thanks for making our point even when you are trying to use prominent failures. Still better than what the Hawks have done without a star.

[AHF]

And the Heat don't win those titles without Shaq, Bosh, and James. All of which were free agent signings, not draft picks.

And the Hawks have a top 5 pick on the team right now with Horford.

Wretch, Howard was attracted to the Rockets because Harden was there (to some degree), but what attracted Harden in the first place? Also, Chris Paul was traded to the Clippers, he wasn't "lured" there in free agency. I mean, the Clippers historically sucked before he got there.

Anyway, count me in as someone who doesn't mind the Hawks making the playoffs. I will be going to a playoff game.

What enabled Houston and LAC to trade for Harden and Paul? Lottery picks.

[yungsta]

harden didnt have a choice of where he wanted to go he was a RFA. He was going wherever OKC traded him to. OKC traded him to houston because they had the most attractive pieces and where more than willing to trade.

There were rumors that OKC were talking to multiple teams that had lottery talent to trade harden for. 1 was to Toronto for Jonas (Lottery Talent), other was to the bobcats for the number 2 pick in the 2012 draft cause they wanted Bradley beal, etc...

CP3 decided where he wanted to go because he was expiring next season so he had all the leverage. He gave the hornets 3 options because they all had top tier talent that he believe he could win with plus was a big market. The Knicks (Carmelo), Clippers (Blake Griffin), and Lakers (Kobe).

The knicks had no trading pieces, the lakers trade got canned, so he went to the clippers cause they had lottery talent that they were willing to trade. So they ended up trading Gordon and aminu who were both picked in the lottery.

Edited March 18, 2014 by yungsta

[HawkItus]

New Orleans with Chris Paul: 4-3 Second Round Loss Last Equaled by Hawks in 1988

Cleveland with Lebron James: NBA Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta Hawks

Orlando with Dwight Howard: NBA Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta Hawks

Chicago Bulls: Eastern Conference Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta HAwks

So thanks for making our point even when you are trying to use prominent failures. Still better than what the Hawks have done without a star.

So this super star argument is tilted to you guys side no matter what. Let's say the Hawks luck up and get one of the glorious draft picks this year. When is he a superstar? Is it for what he does? The Clippers have Blake Griffin. Is he superstar? What has he done in the playoffs? Was Pierce a superstar? Ray Allen? What about Iverson? He couldn't get the stars to philly. Dwight couldn't get them to the Magic. So really until someone wins what do you call a superstar? Horf has been to the second round more times than Chris Paul. Maybe we have our guy. Horf could be the 2A or 3A on a Championship team couldn't he?

[AHF]

Horf could be the 3A on a Championship team couldn't he?

Yes, he could. If he was charismatic enough to recruit elite players to Atlanta that could be enough. As someone who has shown no interest in doing this, I don't think he can be the player you build around. Adding Jeff Teague, Kyle Korver and Paul Millsap level talent to Horford won't get you to new heights but it will keep you in the second round of the playoffs.

If he instead recruited Joakim Noah and James Harden then I would be very excited.

So this super star argument is tilted to you guys side no matter what. Let's say the Hawks luck up and get one of the glorious draft picks this year. When is he a superstar? Is it for what he does? The Clippers have Blake Griffin. Is he superstar? What has he done in the playoffs? Was Pierce a superstar? Ray Allen? What about Iverson? He couldn't get the stars to philly.

Of course the superstar argument is tilted. Superstars are critical to big playoff success so that is a huge deal. On timing, I would argue that Kevin Garnett was a superstar that inept management squandered in Minnesota. He didn't have big playoff success (*yes, he still bested anything the Atlanta Hawks have ever done with his best playoff run in Minnesota*), but he proved it on the floor.

Regarding the guys you are asking about, the results speak for themselves:

Paul Pierce in Boston - Better than anything in Atlanta Hawks history with or without KG (NBA Championship with KG; ECF as the #1 guy)

Blake Griffin - Plays on a contender but let's see where his career goes. He clearly is a much better recruiter than Horford with an assist from LA and that means something. Doc Rivers wasn't fighting to get to Horford and Paul has shown interest in the Hawks since Atlanta passed on him in the draft.

Allen Iverson - NBA Finals = better than anything in Hawks history. I never liked the guy because he was such a black hole on offense that it made it hard to bolt on another elite offensive player, but he still exceeds anything in Atlanta history.

Ray Allen - ECF in Milwaukee; NBA Champion in Boston. Even just looking at the team that drafted him, he exceeds the best playoff performance in Atlanta Hawks history.

These are your examples. There are some you could have chosen that would look better for your "you don't need a superstar" argument, but very few superstars fail to exceed the Atlanta Hawks' best playoff performance with the team that originally drafted them. Blake Griffin hasn't but he is 25 and just really coming into his prime this season so let's not get too far ahead of ourselves.

[SalvorMallow]

New Orleans with Chris Paul: 4-3 Second Round Loss Last Equaled by Hawks in 1988

Cleveland with Lebron James: NBA Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta Hawks

Orlando with Dwight Howard: NBA Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta Hawks

Chicago Bulls: Eastern Conference Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta HAwks

So thanks for making our point even when you are trying to use prominent failures. Still better than what the Hawks have done without a star.

So I'm confused now. Is the goal to win one more game in the second round, or is the goal to win a championship?

If making the finals is all we're looking to do, we just lowered the bar a whole lot.

Edited March 18, 2014 by SalvorMallow

[AHF]

So I'm confused now. Is the goal to win one more game in the second round, or is the goal to win a championship?

If making the finals is all we're looking to do, we just lowered the bar a whole lot.

I want to win a championship. I don't think any approach guarantees that but you have to at least make the finals to be in play. Superstars are the common thread among contenders with a few outliers over the years.

The Atlanta Hawks have 40 years of first and second round exits to show you that you can't win a championship without a stud. The studs above have won multiple championships and have all gotten closer to a ring than the Hawks with the exception of Greg Oden who will exceed the Hawks this year but in such an inconsequential role that I wouldn't count it.

The question really comes down to how you acquire a superstar because the numbers show that having one gets us closer to the ring than our current trajectory. I don't think that landing the 15th pick in the draft will land us that superstar or a deep playoff run.

Edited March 18, 2014 by AHF

[rd79]

To all the tank fans. If we could turn around this franchise with a 10th to 14th pick, what do you think will the 9 to 13 teams with better picks do? Some of them aready have more sold tickets, a bigger market, more talent and maybe more capspace - and they will get a better draft pick. Yes it's possible to build a championship team by tanking - but only for them, not for the hawks...

[AHF]

To all the tank fans. If we could turn around this franchise with a 10th to 14th pick, what do you think will the 9 to 13 teams with better picks do? Some of them aready have more sold tickets, a bigger market, more talent and maybe more capspace - and they will get a better draft pick.Yes it's possible to build a championship team by tanking - but only for them, not for the hawks...

We aren't turning around the franchise in this draft unless we actually win one of the top 3 slots in the lottery and then pick correctly. On top of that, it isn't something done in just one draft. You need your superstar and then smart management of the draft and assets around him.

[benhillboy]

I'm done talking about tanking. It's an argument with no basis and no end. As far as the playoffs, I've seen this team pass the ball enough to know the Heat nor the Pacers can chase it. Furthermore, our offense is one of the few that demoralize them by getting good shots late in the clock. If we protect our defensive glass we can beat both, out worst matchups are the Bulls and apparently the Nets. People act like we weren't heavy underdogs versus Orlando and we beat them comfortably. Denver upset Seattle. The Warriors trashed the Mavericks. The Bulls won last year behind Nate Robinson. It can happen.

Edited March 18, 2014 by benhillboy

[AHF]

We were the 5 seed and beat the 4 seed against Orlando. Not remotely comparable to the #1 versus #8 scenario.

I will register my opinion but I have no problems hoping for a miracle in the playoffs. I will be rooting for it against Miami or Indiana but I surely won't be betting on it without some outrageous odds (100-1 sorts of odds).

[Guest Zone]

If you want a contender, then you are going to need top tier talent. Anyone that would argue against that simply does not know basketball. You can call it a star, franchise player, mega-super-duper-celebrity all pro...the bottom line is that the best players lead teams to contention.

That kind of talent is what the Hawks lack. It doesn't matter what Charlotte does or how old Duncan is or how long the Wizards have been in the lottery or whether or not Kobe comes back from injury. All of that is irrelevant. Until we have a core, of top tier talent we will not advance past the 2nd round baring a miracle. Anyone that would argue against that is simply a hopeless homer.

The question then becomes, how do we get top tier talent?

Free agency? Does not look good for us.

Trade? Who do we trade to bring back a talent the quality of Durant/LeBron/Paul George/D12?

In house? Who on our roster do we hope is on that top level of talent?

Draft? You've got like a less than 2% chance of landing an All-Star quality talent outside of the lottery. If you don't think so, do the research yourself instead of just drooling over the handful of gems like Rondo, Parker, & Millsap amongst the massive heap of NBA washouts and pine riders drafted late 1st and 2nd round.

Statistically, the odds are better fishing in the lottery. So if you despise that route so much...then you are a hypocrite for putting your hope in anywhere else in the draft. Which also removes the final avenue for franchise changing quality talent.

Please tell me how this team is supposed to land it's anchor without the top of the draft, without having a marquee player to attract the top FA's, and without the assets to make a blockbuster trade.None of us want to see the team lose and be terrible. Some of us, like myself who have been cheering for this team for nearly 30 years, DO want to see the team rebuild and contend. It's not impossible to build a team this way, but you can be sure that we are pinning our hopes on some shitty odds while ignoring a prime opportunity to, at a minimum, secure highly coveted assets.

All for the sake of being "competitive."

Man, it doesn't even matter how many times you make well thought out posts filled with truth on this subject. People will still argue against it like what your saying is mind boggling and delusional.

We have been "winning" all these years and nothing good has come from it. Yet people on here still want to keep doing what we've been doing like things are going to magically change.

You know what the funny thing is? Teams that have actually won something multiple times in the past have no problem with tanking. You think fans of the Lakers, Sixers, and the Celtics are mad that they suck right now? Of course not. They are licking their chops at the possibility of landing a player like Wiggins or Parker. So if fans that support a franchise that has a history of winning embrace tanking, why are people on here so resistant? Where is this entitlement coming from?

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if in 3 years, the Magic, Philly, L.A, and the Celtics are better than the Hawks. How many people would seriously bet against that?

[Plainview1981]

I'm done talking about tanking. It's an argument with no basis and no end.As far as the playoffs, I've seen this team pass the ball enough to know the Heat nor the Pacers can chase it. Furthermore, our offense is one of the few that demoralize them by getting good shots late in the clock. If we protect our defensive glass we can beat both, out worst matchups are the Bulls and apparently the Nets. People act like we weren't heavy underdogs versus Orlando and we beat them comfortably. Denver upset Seattle. The Warriors trashed the Mavericks. The Bulls won last year behind Nate Robinson. It can happen.

That Orlando team was starting to crumble when the Hawks played them.

[NBASupes]

I'm done talking about tanking. It's an argument with no basis and no end.As far as the playoffs, I've seen this team pass the ball enough to know the Heat nor the Pacers can chase it. Furthermore, our offense is one of the few that demoralize them by getting good shots late in the clock. If we protect our defensive glass we can beat both, out worst matchups are the Bulls and apparently the Nets. People act like we weren't heavy underdogs versus Orlando and we beat them comfortably. Denver upset Seattle. The Warriors trashed the Mavericks. The Bulls won last year behind Nate Robinson. It can happen.

You never were with tanking to begin with. How can you be don't with something you never were on.

Edited March 18, 2014 by nbasupes40retired