Comparison players thread (Amare / Kemp, Magic / Stockton / Isiah)

[Sothron]

Without googling they had Jeff Malone, Bobby Hanson, Theodore "blue" Edwards just to name a few. Jeff Malone was an all star if I'm not mistaken. Or very close to it. So your telling me that Stockton replacing Zeke on the 1989 team would have defeated the Lakers? And the 1990 team beaten the Blazers? No way in hell.

Lemme give you a quick play by play....

Outside of Dumars and at times Aguirre and Laimbeer, the Pistons didn't have any go to scorers. There is no way Stockton would have been able to dominate a series vs the Lakers the way Zeke did.

Again, I cannot emphasize this enough. I think Stockton is the best pure pg in the history of the league, however if you replaced him with Zeke on the 1988,89,90 Pistons they probably don't make the finals much less win it twice back to back.

You clearly don't remember the Pistons as well as you think you do. Aguirre and Adreian Dantley put up jaw dropping scoring numbers in their careers. No one on Utah even comes close to what they were as players outside of Malone. Karl Malone that is.

I'll be honest: you put Stockton on that Pistons team and they win four straight titles. Easy. You put Zeke on a Jazz team with such GREAT players as Jeff Treadmill Malone or Blue Edwards and they don't win anything. The difference is Thomas could not have seasons with 14.5 assists per GAME with that kind of crap talent around him.

[Admin]

Let me get this straight. The 1994-95 Rockets were "easily the best team in basketball." These Rockets, right?

62-20 San Antonio Spurs

60-22 Utah Jazz

59-23 Phoenix Suns

57-25 Orlando Magic

57-25 Seattle SuperSonics

55-27 New York Knicks

52-30 Indiana Pacers

50-32 Charlotte Hornets

48-34 Los Angeles Lakers

47-35 Chicago Bulls

47-35 Houston Rockets

How could those poor 60 win Jazz be expected to compete against those incredibly dominant Rockets? Without only homecourt advantage? Poor completely overmatched Jazz. They probably regret winning the season series against the Rockets and contributing to the Rocket's dominant #6 seed.

Let me get this straight. You're championing the regular season record over them steamrolling through David Robinson and your Spurs, Shaq and the Magic and everyone else put in front if them for 2 straight years when it counted. I didn't realize the best teams were defined by regular season record. What the heck are the playoffs even for then let's just give Indy the title now.

[Guest]

You clearly don't remember the Pistons as well as you think you do. Aguirre and Adreian Dantley put up jaw dropping scoring numbers in their careers. No one on Utah even comes close to what they were as players outside of Malone. Karl Malone that is.

I'll be honest: you put Stockton on that Pistons team and they win four straight titles. Easy. You put Zeke on a Jazz team with such GREAT players as Jeff Treadmill Malone or Blue Edwards and they don't win anything. The difference is Thomas could not have seasons with 14.5 assists per GAME with that kind of crap talent around him.

I respect your perspective on this topic. I guess I personally just don't agree. Maybe your right I may not remember Aguirre and Dantley's games as well as I thought. I mean it has been over 25 years.

But Stockton and the Pistons would have won 4 straight titles? I'm guessing you mean they would beat..

Lakers in 88

Lakers in 89

Blazers in 90

Beaten the 91 Bulls and then 91 Lakers

Wow. That kind of run would have been historic.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Spud2Nique

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 Joshes wouldn't look any better with Stockton or anyone else, though. So then you are comparing:

Stockton, Josh x 4 versus Magic, Josh x 4

or a more realistic version:

John Stockton / Magic Johnson

JR Smith

Josh Smith

Antoine Walker

Derrick Coleman

Haha.

Smoove and Toine would literally fight to see who could take the worst shot. Then JR Smith would be like ..."Oh yeah? Watch this shot!"

And leave DC alone. Replace DC with Rashers Wallace.

[Sothron]

I respect your perspective on this topic. I guess I personally just don't agree. Maybe your right I may not remember Aguirre and Dantley's games as well as I thought. I mean it has been over 25 years.

But Stockton and the Pistons would have won 4 straight titles? I'm guessing you mean they would beat..

Lakers in 88

Lakers in 89

Blazers in 90

Beaten the 91 Bulls and then 91 Lakers

Wow. That kind of run would have been historic.

Look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dantlad01.html

and this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aguirma01.html

Dantley is a HOF player. Dumars HOF. Rodman HOF. Aguirre was a 3 time All Star who gave up his minutes and thus stats to give more minutes to Rodman. Lambeer was a 4 time All Star who IMO was a HOF player. At the least he's right on that cusp. You had a guy who was the best sixth man in the NBA for several years in Vinnie Johnson. You had talented backups like James Edwards and Spider Salley and Rick Mahorn.

There is simply no comparison between the talent level of Zeke's teams and Stockton's Jazz teams. We will have to agree to disagree about who was better but as someone whose old enough to remember the late 70 and 80's NBA era there's simply on comparison as to who had the better team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Or Rasheed

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This is a very good thread by the way. An instant classic.

[Guest]

Look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dantlad01.html

and this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aguirma01.html

Dantley is a HOF player. Dumars HOF. Rodman HOF. Aguirre was a 3 time All Star who gave up his minutes and thus stats to give more minutes to Rodman. Lambeer was a 4 time All Star who IMO was a HOF player. At the least he's right on that cusp. You had a guy who was the best sixth man in the NBA for several years in Vinnie Johnson. You had talented backups like James Edwards and Spider Salley and Rick Mahorn.

There is simply no comparison between the talent level of Zeke's teams and Stockton's Jazz teams. We will have to agree to disagree about who was better but as someone whose old enough to remember the late 70 and 80's NBA era there's simply on comparison as to who had the better team.

That's concrete evidence right there. Can't really argue with that. Some great points you made. I actually didn't start watching bball until 84 and became a Hawks fan in 86. (84-86 Rockets I lived in Houston) I will have to defer to your knowledge as I never watched ball in the 70's.

I guess my initial point was I'd take Zeke over Stockton in an NBA finals series. But then we started comparing teams, different eras and other things. Like I said I think they are both obviously great players, I just prefer Zeke in the clutch that's all.

[MaceCase]

I don't think people give enough credit to expansion killing off a lot of dynasty teams. Showtime, Bird, Bad Boys all thrived in an era where you simply had stacked teams that would cost going on near 300 million by today's NBA standards. The Bad Boys were even directly affected by expansion when they lost Mahorn.

As soon as the league expanded and watered down the talent pool it's no coincidence that the murderer's rows that used to dominate were now being replaced by team's sporting dynamic duos.

For this I have to give the nod to Stockton over Zeke. I mean I'd take Zeke as the one guy I'd have watch my back as I start a fight in a biker bar but I'd trust Stockton more with actually productive goals.

[AHF]

Let me get this straight. You're championing the regular season record over them steamrolling through David Robinson and your Spurs, Shaq and the Magic and everyone else put in front if them for 2 straight years when it counted. I didn't realize the best teams were defined by regular season record. What the heck are the playoffs even for then let's just give Indy the title now.

By that definition, every team that wins the title is "obviously the best team in the NBA" and the sole reason that the Jazz weren't one of the best teams in the NBA is because they failed to win a championship but that exact same team would be the obvious best team in basketball if in 1994-95 they had made one more three while the Rockets missed one so they won 94-92 and advanced over the Rockets in the playoffs on the way to a championship. It is reductive if you start from the premise that the team that wins in the playoffs must be the best team regardless of how poorly they perform during the regular season.

You are darn right that I think there are some teams that are so talented that they steamroll the rest of the league and are all but unbeatable absent a major injury. That 6th seed Rockets team was not unbeatable and the fact that they barely exceeded .500 for the season is legit evidence of that. That isn't to say they are incapable of winning, but is to say that they were far from unbeatable. You were the one putting them on par with the Bulls and Pistons. How do you see their dominance?

Pistons 1988-89 #1 Seed in the East, 63 Wins (Best in NBA by 6 wins)

Pistons 1989-90 #1 Seed in the East, 59 Wins (2nd Best In NBA)

Bulls 1990-91 #1 Seed In the East, 61 Wins (2nd Best in NBA)

Bulls 1991-92 #1 Seed 67 Wins (Best in NBA by 10 wins)

Bulls 1992-93 #2 Seed In East 57 Wins (3rd Best in NBA)

Rockets 1994-95 #6 Seed in the West (Tied for 10th Best In NBA)

Bulls 1995-96 #1 Seed in the East (Best in NBA by 8 wins)

Bulls 1996-97 #1 Seed in the East (Best in NBA by 5 wins)

Bulls 1997-98 #1 Seed In the East (Best in NBA)

One of these things is not the like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong...

[NBASupes]

I really don't see how we have posters who think Stockton is better than Zeke. It really doesn't make sense. Say Detroit is better than Utah if you want but Zeke was the big reason why. Stockton wouldn't fit what Detroit does, they don't have the personnel. This is a simple question.

Who is better? Zeke

Who is a better fit with Al Horford? John Stockton

Who is a better fit with most superstars? Zeke

Zeke will win 9 out of 10 questions on this subject. Zeke is an elite PG in any system. Stockton is a system PG, there is a major difference.

I didn't think the 90's was all that strong overall. Maybe the top and good players but the average to bad players wouldn't stand much of a chance in today's NBA.

[AHF]

For what it is worth, when they put together the Dream Team the actual superstars wanted Stockton over Thomas. I don't think it is a slam dunk that most superstars would have preferred Thomas over Stockton at all.

I also think you are underselling Stockton big time to call him a system point guard. He ran a system to perfection in Utah but he had the skills to be successful in any system. He was a better defender than Thomas, a better passer than Thomas and notably a better shooter than Thomas: the gap between Thomas .516% TS% versus Stockton .608 TS% is too big to be just shot selection (career Stockton .384% 3pt% over Thomas' .294% 3pt %and career .515% FG% over Thomas' .452%). If I had an elite scorer to pair with one of these guys, it would be Stockton that I would pick regardless of whether you are talking about Karl Malone, Kareem, Jordan or Durant. Where Thomas really excelled over Stockton was one-on-one shot creation. Thomas took on that lead role for the Pistons and Stockton never had that skill set.

[NBASupes]

For what it is worth, when they put together the Dream Team the actual superstars wanted Stockton over Thomas. I don't think it is a slam dunk that most superstars would have preferred Thomas over Stockton at all.

I also think you are underselling Stockton big time to call him a system point guard. He ran a system to perfection in Utah but he had the skills to be successful in any system. He was a better defender than Thomas, a better passer than Thomas and notably a better shooter than Thomas: the gap between Thomas .516% TS% versus Stockton .608 TS% is too big to be just shot selection (career Stockton .384% 3pt% over Thomas' .294% 3pt %and career .515% FG% over Thomas' .452%). If I had an elite scorer to pair with one of these guys, it would be Stockton that I would pick regardless of whether you are talking about Karl Malone, Kareem, Jordan or Durant. Where Thomas really excelled over Stockton was one-on-one shot creation. Thomas took on that lead role for the Pistons and Stockton never had that skill set.

Most superstars wanted Zeke on the team. It was MJ who didn't.

As for being a better shooter and passer, I think it's fair to anoint John but scoring and actual skills, Zeke was better. Let's not mention that Stockton played in a system more privy to higher TS% and the way he was used. He wasn't creating his own offense like Zeke was at Zeke rate.

Korver has a much higher TS% than Melo but who would 99% of people rather have?

Edited June 12, 2014 by nbasupes40retired

[Guest]

For what it is worth, when they put together the Dream Team the actual superstars wanted Stockton over Thomas.

Actual superstars, no. Jordan and Karl Malone. Jordan was the culprit. Malone had beef with Zeke and Stockton was his guy anyways. Malone elbowed Zeke in a game is the 92 season if I recall correctly that had Zeke bloodied in the eye and required many stitches. Pippen probably also didn't want Zeke but then again I personally thought Nique should have gone instead of Pippen anyways.

[Admin]

Haha.

Smoove and Toine would literally fight to see who could take the worst shot. Then JR Smith would be like ..."Oh yeah? Watch this shot!"

And leave DC alone. Replace DC with Rashers Wallace.

Or Javale McGee. I agree leave my boy DC out of it.

[Admin]

I don't think people give enough credit to expansion killing off a lot of dynasty teams. Showtime, Bird, Bad Boys all thrived in an era where you simply had stacked teams that would cost going on near 300 million by today's NBA standards. The Bad Boys were even directly affected by expansion when they lost Mahorn.

As soon as the league expanded and watered down the talent pool it's no coincidence that the murderer's rows that used to dominate were now being replaced by team's sporting dynamic duos.

For this I have to give the nod to Stockton over Zeke. I mean I'd take Zeke as the one guy I'd have watch my back as I start a fight in a biker bar but I'd trust Stockton more with actually productive goals.

Unless you're at the Blue Oyster I don't think Zeke is gonna do you a lot of good in a biker bar. He's a little too effeminate for me to trust with my back.

[AHF]

Korver has a much higher TS% than Melo but who would 99% of people rather have?

A Korver who was a better rebounder and defender than Melo would be pretty darn attractive and probably my preference on a team with a guy like Lebron, Durant, etc. who was expected to be the lead scorer.

[Guest]

Unless you're at the Blue Oyster I don't think Zeke is gonna do you a lot of good in a biker bar. He's a little too effeminate for me to trust with my back.

Hahaha. Ya who knows Zeke might actually switch sides and help the bikers in a fit of rage.

[Admin]

By that definition, every team that wins the title is "obviously the best team in the NBA" and the sole reason that the Jazz weren't one of the best teams in the NBA is because they failed to win a championship but that exact same team would be the obvious best team in basketball if in 1994-95 they had made one more three while the Rockets missed one so they won 94-92 and advanced over the Rockets in the playoffs on the way to a championship. It is reductive if you start from the premise that the team that wins in the playoffs must be the best team regardless of how poorly they perform during the regular season.

You are darn right that I think there are some teams that are so talented that they steamroll the rest of the league and are all but unbeatable absent a major injury. That 6th seed Rockets team was not unbeatable and the fact that they barely exceeded .500 for the season is legit evidence of that. That isn't to say they are incapable of winning, but is to say that they were far from unbeatable. You were the one putting them on par with the Bulls and Pistons. How do you see their dominance?

Pistons 1988-89 #1 Seed in the East, 63 Wins (Best in NBA by 6 wins)

Pistons 1989-90 #1 Seed in the East, 59 Wins (2nd Best In NBA)

Bulls 1990-91 #1 Seed In the East, 61 Wins (2nd Best in NBA)

Bulls 1991-92 #1 Seed 67 Wins (Best in NBA by 10 wins)

Bulls 1992-93 #2 Seed In East 57 Wins (3rd Best in NBA)

Rockets 1994-95 #6 Seed in the West (Tied for 10th Best In NBA)

Bulls 1995-96 #1 Seed in the East (Best in NBA by 8 wins)

Bulls 1996-97 #1 Seed in the East (Best in NBA by 5 wins)

Bulls 1997-98 #1 Seed In the East (Best in NBA)

One of these things is not the like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong...

Where did I put them on par with the Bulls and Pistons? I said in 94-95 they were the best team in basketball and they were. Nobody could stop them in the playoffs and they won back to back titles with the best player in the game at the time and that's pretty damned impressive.

[AHF]

Where did I put them on par with the Bulls and Pistons? I said in 94-95 they were the best team in basketball and they were. Nobody could stop them in the playoffs and they won back to back titles with the best player in the game at the time and that's pretty damned impressive.

Nobody were going to beat the Rockets then and they were easily the best team in basketball. The Jazz were never the best team in basketball. The Pistons were during their run. So were the Bulls.

The difference to me is that if you replay the Bulls championship seasons 100 times, they probably win the championship in 90% of those scenarios. The Rockets weren't that team at all. They weren't even real contenders until Jordan went to play baseball and they basically had a two year window where Jordan was out or getting back into shape. During those two years, I think the door was wide open for a lot of teams. The Rockets did a great thing and stepped up and took advantage both seasons but if you replay those 100 times you won't see nearly the same consistency because the Rockets were not that far apart from the other top teams of those years.

In their best season, they won the championship in Game 7 and won it by 6 points despite John Starks shooting 2-18 from the floor. They were lucky to win that one because it wasn't great defense so much as Starks just bricking shots and shooting them out of the game. In fact, the Rockets won despite a negative point differential for the series. That series was a toss up between those teams.

The next year, the Rockets were the 10th best team over the regulars season and narrowly escaped the first round before coming together for their only really stretch of basketball for the year. That is great and timely but not the kind of dominance that suggests no one was going to beat them.

I was and am a big admirer of Hakeem and enjoyed those Rockets teams. They had character and were a lot of fun to watch. But I don't think they were "easily the best team in basketball" like the Bulls during their run. Instead, they were one of a number of legit contenders who took advantage of Jordan's absence to win their championships. Had Jordan not left to play basketball, the Bulls would have run off 8 straight championships. Kudos to the Rockets for doing it, but I absolutely think their victories had a significant margin for error - unlike the Bulls.