Comparison players thread (Amare / Kemp, Magic / Stockton / Isiah)

[benhillboy]

I can't recall too much of Kemp's game. I actually remember more of Dale Ellis, Sam Perk, and Detlef from those squads. Just never was a fan of him.

Stock versus Zeke is a debate that can go in forever. No right or wrong answer. Those Jazz teams were trash though.

I'm the biggest non-San An resident Spurs fan and I agree Parker should be nowhere near a historic conversation for PGs. He's streaky with the open jumper (been money in the Finals for the most part, perfect timing) but he's always been average or below IMO in outside shooting, defending, and passing. He's been so successful because of the mad genius maximizing what he excels at, which is decision making, dribbling, driving, and finishing. Ginobili is more deserving of an All-Time 2s discussion than Tony with 1s. He wasn't on the trading block and lowballed in contract talks with the Spurs for nothing. They just seem to hit another gear when Patty is running and gunning.

Edited June 11, 2014 by benhillboy

[Sothron]

I'd take Kemp over Amare any day of the week. Kemp actually was a good defensive player. Amare won't even attempt to defend. Offensively Kemp was light years ahead of Amare in the low post and to be fair Amare was light years ahead of Kemp on the mid range game. Kemp was also a better rebounder. His numbers are worse than they should have been because of the spread the wealth mentality the Sonics had back then.

Damn do I miss that Sonics team that went to the Finals. Really wish they had won that year.

[nathan2331]

I can't recall too much of Kemp's game. I actually remember more of Dale Ellis, Sam Perk, and Detlef from those squads. Just never was a fan of him.

Stock versus Zeke is a debate that can go in forever. No right or wrong answer. Those Jazz teams were trash though.

I'm the biggest non-San An resident Spurs fan and I agree Parker should be nowhere near a historic conversation for PGs. He's streaky with the open jumper (been money in the Finals for the most part, perfect timing) but he's always been average or below IMO in outside shooting, defending, and passing. He's been so successful because of the mad genius maximizing what he excels at, which is decision making, dribbling, driving, and finishing. Ginobili is more deserving of an All-Time 2s discussion than Tony with 1s. He wasn't on the trading block and lowballed in contract talks with the Spurs for nothing. They just seem to hit another gear when Patty is running and gunning.

Ginobili isn't that good. He's had a great career, but there's no way I put him on any greatest-of-all-time list.

[Admin]

Ginobili isn't that good. He's had a great career, but there's no way I put him on any greatest-of-all-time list.

Except that he's got Hall of Fame credentials based on his Euro stats alone. The guy is a sure fire 1st ballot hall of famer! He's arguably the best Euro / NBA combined player ever.

[nathan2331]

Except that he's got Hall of Fame credentials based on his Euro stats alone. The guy is a sure fire 1st ballot hall of famer! He's arguably the best Euro / NBA combined player ever.

He's an accomplished winner at every stage of his career, but I don't think he belongs on any greatest SGs of all time list. He hasn't been that good IMO.

[benhillboy]

I hadn't thought about the SG field, but just off the top of my head it's pretty top heavy. You got MJ, Wade, Kobe, West, Ray, then the others. I don't think Manu has any glaring weaknesses besides miscues borne out of having a green light for a team that you wouldn't expect to give a guy the green light. I'm the biggest Kobe fan, but I believe it was the 05 Finals, everyone was seriously questioning if he was equal or even better than Kobe. It seems farfetched now, but he was that good then. If he gets his fourth ring, I gotta think he could make most people's 10 Man list. A lot of the 2s you would probably place ahead of him in terms of minutes and stats never came close to winning anything. He popularized the euro step and left handed excellence like no other.

Edited June 11, 2014 by benhillboy

[Guest]

It was intentional. There's only so much blatant disrespect one can take. Trying to say that Stockton wouldn't win rings with one of the deepest teams in NBA history while Zeke would win 2 or 3 with one of the most perennial short on talented playoff teams deserves that response.

You are wrong sir. Stockton couldn't win with the best pf EVER. And you want him to win with Mark Aguirre huh? Ohhhhkay....

No, no, your right, maybe you should talk to Frank-Alejandro (Alex) Sosa

[Admin]

You are wrong sir. Stockton couldn't win with the best pf EVER. And you want him to win with Mark Aguirre huh? Ohhhhkay....

No, no, your right, maybe you should talk to Frank-Alejandro (Alex) Sosa

Spudz I normally agree with you. But to think that Stockton / Malone during prime Jordan / Pippen / Jackson years is not a hell of a lot more difficult than Isiah and the bad boys during a time when there wasn't a dominant team is kinda silly. Stockton and Malone were great but they were a team of 2. Isiah had the bad boys and they were absolutely dominant on defense and could score when needed on offense. They came in at just the right time too, after the Lakers / Celtics dynasty and just before the Bulls. No such luck for the plucky duo in Utah though as they ran head first into the Bulls juggernaut.

[Guest]

Spudz I normally agree with you. But to think that Stockton / Malone during prime Jordan / Pippen / Jackson years is not a hell of a lot more difficult than Isiah and the bad boys during a time when there wasn't a dominant team is kinda silly. Stockton and Malone were great but they were a team of 2. Isiah had the bad boys and they were absolutely dominant on defense and could score when needed on offense. They came in at just the right time too, after the Lakers / Celtics dynasty and just before the Bulls. No such luck for the plucky duo in Utah though as they ran head first into the Bulls juggernaut.

I agree we are usually on the same page. My only gripe with this Zeke/Stockton initially was that Isiah has more of the "it" "clutch factor in the playoffs" than Stockton. Somehow it became an argument of team player vs team player then the argument continued on to generation vs generation. The thing that people might not remember is that only recently do you need 3 stars to make a deep run in the playoffs ie Spurs with Duncan/Parker/Manu, the Heat with Lebron/Wade/Bosh. The origin of this probably started with the 2007 Celtics with KG/Pierce/Allen. It was never like this in the 80's and 90's. During the time, you needed 2 guys and you could make a deep run. So if you guys are telling me that Stockton was that much greater than Isiah during a time when a duo of players could get you over the hump, then why couldn't Stockton do it with Malone. If you are going to tell me that Jordan/Pippen were in their prime in 1997 and 98 then so were the Jazz. Jordan was drafted in 1984, the same year as Stockton. Karl Malone was drafted in 1985, a year after Jordan and only 2 years before Pippen. To me, if the Bulls were "in their prime", then so were the Jazz. So how can a duo with the best point guard ever in Stockton and the best power forward in Malone not be able to beat the best sg ever and probably a top 5-10 small forward ever in Pippen?

Also, I'm not sure if you guys remember but when the Pistons needed a bucket badly, it was most often Isiah who delivered it. Not the case with Stockton. The only time I remember Stockton making a series winning shot was vs the Rockets in 96 or 97 I believe, sending Barkley, Hakeem and Drexler home. As great a playmaker as Stockton was, and probably the best the game has ever seen, he simply could not make a big basket by himself or take the game over by himself to propel his team to a clutch finals win. Both in 97 and 98.

[Admin]

When you're talking about "it playoff factor" I honestly don't think you can say either doesn't have it. They're 2 of the best PGs of all-time and both played with incredible intensity. I just think it's silly for anyone to believe that Stockton didn't have heart as he would probably set a hard pick on his grandmother if it got his man open.

[Guest]

When you're talking about "it playoff factor" I honestly don't think you can say either doesn't have it. They're 2 of the best PGs of all-time and both played with incredible intensity. I just think it's silly for anyone to believe that Stockton didn't have heart as he would probably set a hard pick on his grandmother if it got his man open.

Oh no argument there. I agree Stockton had much heart.I think i just said Isiah had more heart. I guess using the word "heart" could be misleading as well. Maybe I want to combine the words heart, grit, determination, clutchness and roll them all into one word. I'm not sure but when the Hawks played the Jazz, I simply wasn't as afraid as when they played the Pistons. But I agree, both had immense heart. I really have a tough time arguing on behalf of Zeke also, mainly because they always owned us and knocked us out of the 91 playoffs in game 5, ill never forget that. Not to mention Zeke was a dirty lil SOB lol

[Sothron]

You are wrong sir. Stockton couldn't win with the best pf EVER. And you want him to win with Mark Aguirre huh? Ohhhhkay....

No, no, your right, maybe you should talk to Frank-Alejandro (Alex) Sosa

Go look at Mark Aguirre's numbers and get back to me. Go look at the TEAM of Detroit from the mid 80s to 1991 and get back to me. There is absolutely no comparison between who had the better team.

Hell I'll make this even easier for you: name me any of the Jazz players without googling it on the Jazz team of that era other than Stockton, Malone and Eaton. Stockton and Malone had the worst playoff talented teams around them for practically every year of their existence. Who are their going to be in the playoffs in a best of seven series with two guys and a bunch of stiffs with maybe one decent starter tossed in for a few years?

And then you are going to tell me that Thomas would win 2 or 3 rings with that group of guys against that level of competition? That Stockton on that mid 80's to 1991 Pistons teams couldn't win a SINGLE ring? No. Just no.

[NBASupes]

When you're talking about "it playoff factor" I honestly don't think you can say either doesn't have it. They're 2 of the best PGs of all-time and both played with incredible intensity. I just think it's silly for anyone to believe that Stockton didn't have heart as he would probably set a hard pick on his grandmother if it got his man open.

Stockton had one thing for sure outside of passing skills and court vision and that's heart. That man played to kill.

[NBASupes]

I agree we are usually on the same page. My only gripe with this Zeke/Stockton initially was that Isiah has more of the "it" "clutch factor in the playoffs" than Stockton. Somehow it became an argument of team player vs team player then the argument continued on to generation vs generation. The thing that people might not remember is that only recently do you need 3 stars to make a deep run in the playoffs ie Spurs with Duncan/Parker/Manu, the Heat with Lebron/Wade/Bosh. The origin of this probably started with the 2007 Celtics with KG/Pierce/Allen. It was never like this in the 80's and 90's. During the time, you needed 2 guys and you could make a deep run. So if you guys are telling me that Stockton was that much greater than Isiah during a time when a duo of players could get you over the hump, then why couldn't Stockton do it with Malone. If you are going to tell me that Jordan/Pippen were in their prime in 1997 and 98 then so were the Jazz. Jordan was drafted in 1984, the same year as Stockton. Karl Malone was drafted in 1985, a year after Jordan and only 2 years before Pippen. To me, if the Bulls were "in their prime", then so were the Jazz. So how can a duo with the best point guard ever in Stockton and the best power forward in Malone not be able to beat the best sg ever and probably a top 5-10 small forward ever in Pippen?

Also, I'm not sure if you guys remember but when the Pistons needed a bucket badly, it was most often Isiah who delivered it. Not the case with Stockton. The only time I remember Stockton making a series winning shot was vs the Rockets in 96 or 97 I believe, sending Barkley, Hakeem and Drexler home. As great a playmaker as Stockton was, and probably the best the game has ever seen, he simply could not make a big basket by himself or take the game over by himself to propel his team to a clutch finals win. Both in 97 and 98.

The problem with topics like this is we all got preferences. For Sothron, he likes Stockton the most. For me, I think Zeke is better for some of the reasons you stated.

[Sothron]

Check this out:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#playoffs_advanced::none

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html#playoffs_advanced::none

And then:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#advanced::none

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html#advanced::none

Also this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/1990.html

vs

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1989.html

And tell me who had the better team around them. It isn't even remotely close. I love in particular how Detroit had, let me count, SIX guys that average double figures and one guy that came close in Rodman. On Utah...you had three guys that average double figures. Just THREE. And still Stockton got 14.5 assists. Amazing.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Sothron

[Guest]

Go look at Mark Aguirre's numbers and get back to me. Go look at the TEAM of Detroit from the mid 80s to 1991 and get back to me. There is absolutely no comparison between who had the better team.

Hell I'll make this even easier for you: name me any of the Jazz players without googling it on the Jazz team of that era other than Stockton, Malone and Eaton. Stockton and Malone had the worst playoff talented teams around them for practically every year of their existence. Who are their going to be in the playoffs in a best of seven series with two guys and a bunch of stiffs with maybe one decent starter tossed in for a few years?

And then you are going to tell me that Thomas would win 2 or 3 rings with that group of guys against that level of competition? That Stockton on that mid 80's to 1991 Pistons teams couldn't win a SINGLE ring? No. Just no.

Without googling they had Jeff Malone, Bobby Hanson, Theodore "blue" Edwards just to name a few. Jeff Malone was an all star if I'm not mistaken. Or very close to it. So your telling me that Stockton replacing Zeke on the 1989 team would have defeated the Lakers? And the 1990 team beaten the Blazers? No way in hell.

Lemme give you a quick play by play....

Outside of Dumars and at times Aguirre and Laimbeer, the Pistons didn't have any go to scorers. There is no way Stockton would have been able to dominate a series vs the Lakers the way Zeke did.

Again, I cannot emphasize this enough. I think Stockton is the best pure pg in the history of the league, however if you replaced him with Zeke on the 1988,89,90 Pistons they probably don't make the finals much less win it twice back to back.

[AHF]

Nobody were going to beat the Rockets then and they were easily the best team in basketball. The Jazz were never the best team in basketball. The Pistons were during their run. So were the Bulls.

Let me get this straight. The 1994-95 Rockets were "easily the best team in basketball." These Rockets, right?

62-20 San Antonio Spurs

60-22 Utah Jazz

59-23 Phoenix Suns

57-25 Orlando Magic

57-25 Seattle SuperSonics

55-27 New York Knicks

52-30 Indiana Pacers

50-32 Charlotte Hornets

48-34 Los Angeles Lakers

47-35 Chicago Bulls

47-35 Houston Rockets

How could those poor 60 win Jazz be expected to compete against those incredibly dominant Rockets? Without only homecourt advantage? Poor completely overmatched Jazz. They probably regret winning the season series against the Rockets and contributing to the Rocket's dominant #6 seed.

Edited June 12, 2014 by AHF

[Guest]

Let me get this straight. The 1994-95 Rockets were "easily the best team in basketball." These Rockets, right?

62-20 San Antonio Spurs

60-22 Utah Jazz

59-23 Phoenix Suns

57-25 Orlando Magic

57-25 Seattle SuperSonics

55-27 New York Knicks

52-30 Indiana Pacers

50-32 Charlotte Hornets

48-34 Los Angeles Lakers

47-35 Chicago Bulls

47-35 Houston Rockets

That was the 2nd year of their championship right? I remember they snuck in as a 6th seed but beat the Jazz and Sonics I think. Or wait no it was the Suns and Sonics. Hmmm, well whoever it was they kicked arse as the 6th seed.

[AHF]

That was the 2nd year of their championship right? I remember they snuck in as a 6th seed but beat the Jazz and Sonics I think. Or wait no it was the Suns and Sonics. Hmmm, well whoever it was they kicked arse as the 6th seed.

They beat the Jazz 3-2 by the series deciding margin of 95-91.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Kemp had a mid-range game - even fat Kemp still made that shot.

Haha @ fat Kemp