Player comparison: Paul Millsap and Larry Johnson

[Sothron]

I had an interesting argument at work about this. We were talking around the water cooler about the upcoming season. One of the people there is a Hornets fan. I was talking about how I had a NBA 2k16 franchise with the 92/93 Hornets replacing the current Hornets and how it was a blast playing young Alonzo Mourning and Grandmama with little Muggsy with Dell Curry shooting 3's like nothing and Kendall Gill being a very good attack the basket wing player and defender.

This apparently offended the Hornets fan who is old enough, like me, to remember those good Hornets teams. And apparently he never forgave Zo for leaving and Larry Johnson wanting out of Charlotte. This started a testy exchange between us because I really, really liked those old Hornets team and it was their idiotic owner that wouldn't pay Zo or anyone else that was the problem. If he had kept them together and Larry's back had held up I believe that team might have been a title contender.

So that led us to talking about our current Hawks which he started bashing pretty badly. When he started digging in on Millsap as a small tweener that was never going to be good enough to win anything I literally held up my hand and said "Excuse me, you realize you are talking about this generation's Larry Johnson, right?"

This started a very long fight between us. He absolutely went frothing at the mouth upset that I would compare a "trash tweener" (his words) to Grandmama who, despite his earlier telling me he was still mad at him, suddenly became Larry Johnson's greatest fan. He said there was zero comparison between them. We argued for at least forty minutes about this before we had to go back to work. He is still pissed as hell that I think Millsap is very, very comparable to Larry Johnson.

So I will ask you guys and gals: do you think Larry Johnson and Paul Millsap are comparable players? For the younger fans, Larry Johnson was a 6'7" 257 pound PF/SF that before his back got hurt was a 20/10 player in his prime years. He could score in the low post, he had a good midrange game, he could shoot from three at an ok rate and he had great vision and hands. He played point forward for the Hornets at times. He was a physical beast that was strong as an ox but could also get up the court quickly and had a good vertical. 

IMO he is the prototype tweener PF that could do a little of everything that you see so much of in today's game. I realize Paul will never have the national awareness that Larry Johnson did but am I off base comparing the two players?

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

LJ was far more athletic but Sap is more skilled but LJ athletic ability was elite for his size. When LJ was in his prime, the gap was extreme. With that said, Sap has gotten better with age and hasn't has the history of injuries that LJ had. Sap is better as an older than LJ was when he was older. In LJ prime, he was a legit top 10-15 player. No comparison.

[Guest]

Very interesting, I can see the similarities to some extent. LJ has Paul beat on athleticism.

[Sothron]

I agree that LJ was more athletic but "far more"? I mean...really? Millsap is a freak. LJ before back injuries was a better athlete, no question, but I don't think they are that far apart.

But do you guys agree with how similar they are as players? I mean that to me is as important if not more so than the athletic comparisons. And I have to point...they are basically the same height and size.

[hawkman]

I think LJ was the better player before the back issues. His scoring and rebounding were top notch during a time when guys really got after it in the paint. Milsap's no slouch though. He did struggle to keep Tristan Thompson off the glass. LJ would've dominated that matchup.

[benhillboy]

Sap's basketball career has been beyond characterization so it's hard to compare him, there's so much that makes him the player he is today: Leading the NCAA in rebounds two years straight, to coming off the bench, to improving his three pointer exponentially, 2-Time All-Star who has lost weight each year and who some think (not me) that he can guard LeBron.

At first thought he is more skilled than Grandmama.  I remember more of the gimp back Larry than the super-athletic one.  I'd mix varying degrees of Z-Bo, Elton, Cliff Robinson, Derrick Coleman, Larry
Johnson, Terry Cummings, and Chuck with arguably the nastiest crossover seen out of a PF and loads of positive intangibles to get peak Paul. 

[Guest]

I think that LJ was much more athletic that Paul early on before the injuries. LJ could slash to the hole, was somewhat craft around it, not to mention a furious dunker. For a guy his size, he was a freak and what kids call a beast nowadays. I think Paul is more of a post injured LJ, but Paul is a bit better, more crafty, smarter and more of a "winner". I have no idea how far LJ would have gone if Zo stayed, but to me he didn't seem like a winner to me. I can definitively see similarities in their game, specially the face up put it on the floor game.

[Sothron]

I think that LJ was much more athletic that Paul early on before the injuries. LJ could slash to the hole, was somewhat craft around it, not to mention a furious dunker. For a guy his size, he was a freak and what kids call a beast nowadays. I think Paul is more of a post injured LJ, but Paul is a bit better, more crafty, smarter and more of a "winner". I have no idea how far LJ would have gone if Zo stayed, but to me he didn't seem like a winner to me. I can definitively see similarities in their game, specially the face up put it on the floor game.

You do remember he won the NCAA championship at UNLV with our own Hawk Stacey "Plastic Man" Augmon? I definitely think that Hornets team could have won a title if LJ's back had stayed healthy and Zo had stayed.

I'm glad you can see the similarities to their game, though. When I saw Paul in Utah the first person I thought of immediately was Larry Johnson in comparing their games.

[kurupt]

I know stats aren't everything, but LJs rookie season was far better than any season Millsap has ever had. For his position, he was a good shooter and an elite athlete, rebounder and scorer. He was an up and coming Top10-12 player before his back issues (=before his prime).

After his big injury, I think they are comparable. But I get that your friend got a little upset about comparing them overall.

[Guest]

You do remember he won the NCAA championship at UNLV with our own Hawk Stacey "Plastic Man" Augmon? I definitely think that Hornets team could have won a title if LJ's back had stayed healthy and Zo had stayed.

I'm glad you can see the similarities to their game, though. When I saw Paul in Utah the first person I thought of immediately was Larry Johnson in comparing their games.

Yup, loved plastic man. One of my fav Hawks ever. I guess the Hornets could have gone far but I just couldn't see them beating a dominant Bulls team with Jordan and Pippen or even a Rockets team with Hakeem. I think their ceiling was eastern conference finals against the Bulls maybe.

[benhillboy]

I know stats aren't everything, but LJs rookie season was far better than any season Millsap has ever had. For his position, he was a good shooter and an elite athlete, rebounder and scorer. He was an up and coming Top10-12 player before his back issues (=before his prime).

After his big injury, I think they are comparable. But I get that your friend got a little upset about comparing them overall.

I wouldn't say "far better", although I forgot he was that good early on.  His numbers look Garnett-ish.  He logged 39 minutes his first two seasons, something Sap has never gotten close to.

[Diesel]

This is a good one.  There are two things:

1.   Larry Johnson before the Back injury.  (LJ1)
2.  Larry Johnson with no lift after the Back injury  (LJ2)

Now, if you're talking about LJ1 fresh outta UNLV, nah son... Millsap is nothing like him.  That guy was fast, able to go up and dunk like Kemp and was hard to stop moving forward.  Plus he had that underneath the basket post up game. LJ1 if he could have developed a midrange shot would have a been hall of famer.

However, if you're talking about LJ2, LJ2 was a poor man's Millsap.  LJ2 had no lift.  He couldn't dunk any more.  He was no longer a threat to Kemp people and posterize people.  However, the weirdest thing happened.  He evolved.  He developed a midrange game (something he never had as LJ1).  He could always do good work underneath the basket, but his post up game became major and it was better than LJ1's.  When I say Sap is greater, what I mean is that while Sap was not the post up technician as LJ2, Sap's midrange game is far superior.  Plus, Sap is a better defender and passer than either LJ1 or LJ2.

If I had to give Sap a "spirit animal" from that time, I say Karl Malone. The midrange game, the defense, the passing... all remind me of Karl Malone.  The only thing that Sap lacks in that comparison was the ability to take people off the dribble from the midrange.

[benhillboy]

This is a good one.  There are two things:

1.   Larry Johnson before the Back injury.  (LJ1)
2.  Larry Johnson with no lift after the Back injury  (LJ2)

Now, if you're talking about LJ1 fresh outta UNLV, nah son... Millsap is nothing like him.  That guy was fast, able to go up and dunk like Kemp and was hard to stop moving forward.  Plus he had that underneath the basket post up game. LJ1 if he could have developed a midrange shot would have a been hall of famer.

However, if you're talking about LJ2, LJ2 was a poor man's Millsap.  LJ2 had no lift.  He couldn't dunk any more.  He was no longer a threat to Kemp people and posterize people.  However, the weirdest thing happened.  He evolved.  He developed a midrange game (something he never had as LJ1).  He could always do good work underneath the basket, but his post up game became major and it was better than LJ1's.  When I say Sap is greater, what I mean is that while Sap was not the post up technician as LJ2, Sap's midrange game is far superior.  Plus, Sap is a better defender and passer than either LJ1 or LJ2.

If I had to give Sap a "spirit animal" from that time, I say Karl Malone. The midrange game, the defense, the passing... all remind me of Karl Malone.  The only thing that Sap lacks in that comparison was the ability to take people off the dribble from the midrange.

I was feeling every word of this until the last sentence.  The only 4s I could see that Sap wouldn't stutter and cross-over/ spin-off/ rip-through are Amir Johnson, Ibaka, or Terrance Jones.

[sturt]

Great discussion. Hadn't really thought about it, @Sothron until you brought it up, but good points all. I'd need to see Sap do what he's done since his arrival in ATL another 3 years or so, and at that point, I'd think there'd be more enthusiasm for the comparison. Reminds me a little of Danny Roundfield in that, he was good before he got to ATL, but once here, he really began to distinguish himself at an All-Star level.

[AHF]

This is a good one.  There are two things:

1.   Larry Johnson before the Back injury.  (LJ1)
2.  Larry Johnson with no lift after the Back injury  (LJ2)

Now, if you're talking about LJ1 fresh outta UNLV, nah son... Millsap is nothing like him.  That guy was fast, able to go up and dunk like Kemp and was hard to stop moving forward.  Plus he had that underneath the basket post up game. LJ1 if he could have developed a midrange shot would have a been hall of famer.

However, if you're talking about LJ2, LJ2 was a poor man's Millsap.  LJ2 had no lift.  He couldn't dunk any more.  He was no longer a threat to Kemp people and posterize people.  However, the weirdest thing happened.  He evolved.  He developed a midrange game (something he never had as LJ1).  He could always do good work underneath the basket, but his post up game became major and it was better than LJ1's.  When I say Sap is greater, what I mean is that while Sap was not the post up technician as LJ2, Sap's midrange game is far superior.  Plus, Sap is a better defender and passer than either LJ1 or LJ2.

If I had to give Sap a "spirit animal" from that time, I say Karl Malone. The midrange game, the defense, the passing... all remind me of Karl Malone.  The only thing that Sap lacks in that comparison was the ability to take people off the dribble from the midrange.

Great. post.  I agree with almost every bit of this.  LJ1 is not a good comparison for Sap.  LJ2 is a good comparison but isn't as good as Sap.  LJ basically went from Star to Role Player while Sap has gone from Role Player to Star so the timing/development isn't a good comparison either.

So I don't think he is this generation's LJ at all but there is enough commonality in terms of the jumper, the size, the rebounding and the tweener position to talk about them together.

Your friend sounds pretty bitter @Sothron, both about the historical Charlotte teams and some serious envy about his neighbors to the west.

[HawkItus]

LJ's game was more physical than Paul's.   LJ was the bread and butter post up material.  I think comparing the two is like comparing Horf to Morning.  Our guy's are both Poor man approximates of each.  

[benhillboy]

LJ's game was more physical than Paul's.   LJ was the bread and butter post up material.  I think comparing the two is like comparing Horf to Morning.  Our guy's are both Poor man approximates of each.  

Never heard the Mourning-Al comparison.  I like it.

[AHF]

Through 9 seasons here are their numbers:

Per 36 Minutes

 

Glossary  · SHARE  · Embed  · CSV  · Export  · PRE  · LINK  · ?

Rk	Player	From	To	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Larry Johnson	1992	2000	642	634	23580	6.3	13.0	.490	0.5	1.4	.336	5.9	11.5	.509	3.3	4.4	.765	2.6	4.9	7.5	3.3	0.7	0.3	2.0	2.6	16.5
2	Paul Millsap	2007	2015	687	411	19693	6.5	12.9	.503	0.3	1.0	.340	6.2	11.9	.516	3.6	4.9	.728	2.9	6.2	9.1	2.6	1.6	1.2	2.1	4.0	16.9

 

Edited October 19, 2015 by AHF

[AHF]

STRONG case for Sap based on those numbers.

[benhillboy]

STRONG case for Sap based on those numbers.

Or no case for Larry.  That back injury f&@ked him up good fashion.