Where is your faith in Buds System?

[JTB]

(NOTE: Sorry I don't know how to shorten topics like this but I promise its a good read or atleast will open up deep discussion on where this team should be headed in the near future)

 

If I were to tell you that Bud could fix all his issues without bringing in a Star to ATL and getting back an allstar like lineup would you have faith that he can coach the hawks to a championship and win it all?....This isn't a thread of me trying to push for certain players but more so of me trying to get an idea of how much the hawk fan base believes in Buds Spurs like system including myself without bringing in a BIG NAME player!

 

Lets Fix Bud's or these Hawks issues  including rebounds, perimeter defense, rim protection, more shooters, and more depth and in the end see if we agree that Bud doesn't need a star on this team to get to the next level. So heres a roster below that fixes all of those issues and Im not going off of if we can afford this roster or not though you will see that it probably is possible however I haven't done any numbers but again Im ONLY looking to see where fellow Hawk fans faith is in Buds Spurs like system with an allstar like lineup (again):

Starters

PG- Teague or Dennis

SG-Korver or Baze

SF-Nicolas Batum

PF-Millsap

C-Horford

Bench

PG-Teague or Dennis - Hinrich 3rd PG backup

SG-Korver or Baze - Hardaway 3rd SG backup

SF-Thabo

PF-Scott/Humphries

C-Joakim Noah/Splitter/Edy

 

So that 15 man roster created fixes Buds/Hawks issues including rebounds, shooting, rim protection etc. (Lamar & Moose cut). I'll break it down:

Need more rebounding?

Done...added Noah, brought back Humphries, and Splitter is still here

Need more perimeter defenders?

Done...added Batum (elite defender), brought back Baze (good defender as starter or bench player), and Thabo (elite defender in bench minutes) is still here

Need more shooters?

Somewhat Done...added Batum, Korver will get back to himself as will other starters as far as shooting

Need more Depth?

Done...added Noah and Batum to go along with the same rotational guys which ultimately makes us a lot deeper.

Need rim protection?

Done...added Noah and Splitter is still on the team.

 

There you have it! I fixed our Hawks issues without throwing BIG Money on a star player wouldn't you agree?.....IF you do agree that the roster fixes our Hawks problems please answer the next question with honesty.......

Can Bud coach this team with that roster above to a championship and win it all now that we have rim protection, rebounders, and adding at least one above average 3pt shooter? Lets even say that all these guys have a career avg season from starters to bench....Players that should be knocking down 3s are knocking down 3s, Players that should be grabbing rebounds are grabbing their rebounders, etc....CAN Bud coach the hawks to a championship now that the issues have been fixed? YES or NO or POSSIBLY?

 

My Thoughts: I hope most will answer "no" to the questions above.....Im trying to make a point here that even giving Bud an all star roster again and fixing some glaring issues the hawks still would not win a championship. We would still need a player who can just go out and get buckets when need be and one that can be a closer! That person is normally, usually, and always a STAR player which is why I didn't include it because at some point we have to realize that we cant have both in terms of an all star starting lineup and a star player but most here believes a star player isn't needed. 

 

 

So how can getting an all star lineup again really excite you when you know that this team though would more than likely be one of the ELITES would still only have a 10% chance at beating other elite teams that have an actual  star player? (IM BEGGING FOR RESPONSES......LOL)

[Spursfanpeacemaker]

Adding a Star level player doesn't always mean your team going to win a championship. Looking back last year, Hawks didn't have a star player, they still reached the ECF without Thabo, and Kyle Korver got injured by Delladenova,

This year is different, Hawks have a different team, no DMC, they got new players, Tiago Splitter, Patterson, Tim hardaway, and Edy tavares. They have to figure out their identity again with all these new players, then Tiago got injured and had hip surgery, they are missing a backup big, Patterson is having a hard time fitting in and hes not actively part of the rotation, Edy tavares still working his craft in the D-league developing his game. Tim hardaway is feeling comfortable in the rotation, been really consistent, and improving his game. Kyle korver is still finding his rhythm after that surgery he had. A lot of up and downs, but you still have to keep moving forward, and be positive even if your team is having a tough season. 

I don't think Hawks are against looking for star players level, they tried to sign Joe johnson but he signed with miami heat, 

I do agree that you need a "go to guy" to be a championship team, but it's  hard for Hawks to sign or lure a star player because they haven't been really a contender for a long time. I think the only best chance that they can find a "Star/go to guy" is in the draft or scouting potential undiscovered talent whether in the d-league,college or internationally.

Bud is the one who forced Coach Pop to sign Kawhi leonard and trade george hill, so i know he's looking for one for this team. If hit not, then he's probablyy looking average taleneted players that can play in his system.

I still believe Hawks can be a contender team even if they don't have a superstar player, If hawks  have enough amount of talent, and all  players fit in the system and really works well together as a team, then i do believe they have a chance to be a contender team. It will take time and patience to build a contender team. Right now Hawks are in that process building that  foundation, developing their players, and finding best ways to work as team effectively.

 

 

 

 

[JTB]

11 minutes ago, Spursfanpeacemaker said:

Adding a Star level player doesn't always mean your team going to win a championship. Looking back last year, Hawks didn't have a star player, they still reached the ECF without Thabo, and Kyle Korver got injured by Delladenova,

This year is different, Hawks have a different team, no DMC, they got new players, Tiago Splitter, Patterson, Tim hardaway, and Edy tavares. They have to figure out their identity again with all these new players, then Tiago got injured and had hip surgery, they are missing a backup big, Patterson is having a hard time fitting in and hes not actively part of the rotation, Edy tavares still working his craft in the D-league developing his game. Tim hardaway is feeling comfortable in the rotation, been really consistent, and improving his game. Kyle korver is still finding his rhythm after that surgery he had. A lot of up and downs, but you still have to keep moving forward, and be positive even if your team is having a tough season. 

I don't think Hawks are against looking for star players level, they tried to sign Joe johnson but he signed with miami heat, 

I do agree that you need a "go to guy" to be a championship team, but it's  hard for Hawks to sign or lure a star player because they haven't been really a contender for a long time. I think the only best chance that they can find a "Star/go to guy" is in the draft or scouting potential undiscovered talent whether in the d-league,college or internationally.

Bud is the one who forced Coach Pop to sign Kawhi leonard and trade george hill, so i know he's looking for one for this team. If hit not, then he's probablyy looking average taleneted players that can play in his system.

I still believe Hawks can be a contender team even if they don't have a superstar player, If hawks  have enough amount of talent, and all  players fit in the system and really works well together as a team, then i do believe they have a chance to be a contender team. It will take time and patience to build a contender team. Right now Hawks are in that process building that  foundation, developing their players, and finding best ways to work as team effectively.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you that the hawks can be or get back to being an elite contending team even without adding a superstar, they just need the right players.....but I don't think they can be a elite contending team that can actually get over that hump and actual win it all against other elite contending teams because of the reason of them not having a star. 

Now that other part you said about taking time and patience...well I definitely see the patience the hawks organization has been taking as they continue to try to build a contender lol...but as far as time goes I have to respectfully disagree and say if they are taking "time" to build a contender thats not good with our best two players being 30 and 31 next season! That is the wrong move in my opinion. If we need time...get a young player in here to build around and if they choose that path mine as well throw all the chips in to get a star.

Personally if bud was to start over I have full confidence that if he got a star player to build around it would only take him 2-3 years to have a contender in place...but thats just my opinion 

[benhillboy]

Pace & Space and Ball & Man movement won't play out anytime soon.  

Relegate our starting 1-3 to the bench in favor of upgrades (PG already in house) this summer and I have the utmost confidence.  I would hope those upgrades come with a slight uptick in foul drawing and rebounding. 

To have this limited roster near the top of the league defensively for large chunks of two seasons is exceptional.  

I've pumped the brakes on Bud being anywhere near Pop's league.  Still a Finals-level HC all things considered.  Having smart guys who've "gotten over themselves" is all good but we need a talent infusion to keep the system well-oiled.  My confidence in that happening is much more questionable.

[Spursfanpeacemaker]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

I agree with you that the hawks can be or get back to being an elite contending team even without adding a superstar, they just need the right players.....but I don't think they can be a elite contending team that can actually get over that hump and actual win it all against other elite contending teams because of the reason of them not having a star. 

Now that other part you said about taking time and patience...well I definitely see the patience the hawks organization has been taking as they continue to try to build a contender lol...but as far as time goes I have to respectfully disagree and say if they are taking "time" to build a contender thats not good with our best two players being 30 and 31 next season! That is the wrong move in my opinion. If we need time...get a young player in here to build around and if they choose that path mine as well throw all the chips in to get a star.

Personally if bud was to start over I have full confidence that if he got a star player to build around it would only take him 2-3 years to have a contender in place...but thats just my opinion 

"but I don't think they can be a elite contending team that can actually get over that hump and actual win it all against other elite contending teams because of the reason of them not having a star. "

In my opinion, if you have enough talent in your team without a superstar, and everyone play as a collective unit, then they still have a chance beating teams that have a superstar in their roster. We will still see If Hawks will be able to find a "superstar level" player to add in the team.

 

"if they are taking "time" to build a contender thats not good with our best two players being 30 and 31 next season! "

im talking  about in 2-4 yrs long run not like a decade that would be really too long lol, if they haven't been a contender team after 5 years or more, then everything just didn't work out, Bud would have been probably fired and the franchise will  just look for new direction.

 

"Personally if bud was to start over I have full confidence that if he got a star player to build around it would only take him 2-3 years to have a contender in place...but thats just my opinion "

I think Bud will keep his key players , and build around them. Also, I don't think Bud is the only one making all the decisions, im sure he's working with his coaching staffs, and the hawks organization, they decide together what's best for the team.

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Spursfanpeacemaker

[Spursfanpeacemaker]

2 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Pace & Space and Ball & Man movement won't play out anytime soon.  

Relegate our starting 1-3 to the bench in favor of upgrades (PG already in house) this summer and I have the utmost confidence.  I would hope those upgrades come with a slight uptick in foul drawing and rebounding. 

To have this limited roster near the top of the league defensively for large chunks of two seasons is exceptional.  

I've pumped the brakes on Bud being anywhere near Pop's league.  Still a Finals-level HC all things considered.  Having smart guys who've "gotten over themselves" is all good but we need a talent infusion to keep the system well-oiled.  My confidence in that happening is much more questionable.

"I've pumped the brakes on Bud being anywhere near Pop's league"

Bud and Pop, both of them are completely different,  Pop been fortunate to have Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Tony parker, and manu ginobili.

 

"we need a talent infusion to keep the system well-oiled"

I agree, we'll just have to wait who will be they adding in the team in the future

 

[Hawkmoor]

The Hawks need to be ASHAMED of themselves. They got their fans in the kitchen trying to come up with combinations of baloney, pig snoots,pig feet, onions, spice and trying to pass it off as filet mignon because they REFUSE to get big time players in Atlanta.

Name ONE NBA championship team that DIDNT have a superstar??  I know, people wanna drag out the Detroit Pistons, but that team had a superstar in Wallace, who was surrounded with borderline superstar players.  The Media never liked Rasheed Wallace, so they slighted him as not being a superstar when he was in Detroit.  Wallace, Billups, Tyshawn, etc. that team had TALENT.  Dont get it twisted.

I know the Hawks want to sell us this thing of winning a championship with role players and a system. Its a NICE story. Show the NBA the San Antonio way, blah, blah, blah.  The Spurs got SUPERSTARS.  They one of the ORIGINAL big THREE teams.  Now they got Aldridge and Leonard paired with Duncan, Parker, etc.

Until the Hawks get better players, it aint happening........... The ONLY team in the NBA right now that would succeed with Bud's system is Golden State because of TALENT............

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[Bonkers]

16 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

The Hawks need to be ASHAMED of themselves. They got their fans in the kitchen trying to come up with combinations of baloney, pig snoots,pig feet, onions, spice and trying to pass it off as filet mignon because they REFUSE to get big time players in Atlanta.

Name ONE NBA championship team that DIDNT have a superstar??  I know, people wanna drag out the Detroit Pistons, but that team had a superstar in Wallace, who was surrounded with borderline superstar players.  The Media never liked Rasheed Wallace, so they slighted him as not being a superstar when he was in Detroit.  Wallace, Billups, Tyshawn, etc. that team had TALENT.  Dont get it twisted.

I know the Hawks want to sell us this thing of winning a championship with role players and a system. Its a NICE story. Show the NBA the San Antonio way, blah, blah, blah.  The Spurs got SUPERSTARS.  They one of the ORIGINAL big THREE teams.  Now they got Aldridge and Leonard paired with Duncan, Parker, etc.

Until the Hawks get better players, it aint happening........... The ONLY team in the NBA right now that would succeed with Bud's system is Golden State because of TALENT............

 

One of the best posts I've ever seen on here. *Round of applause*

 

This Hawks team has 0 chance to accomplish anything

[Watchman]

25 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

The Hawks need to be ASHAMED of themselves. They got their fans in the kitchen trying to come up with combinations of baloney, pig snoots,pig feet, onions, spice and trying to pass it off as filet mignon because they REFUSE to get big time players in Atlanta.

Name ONE NBA championship team that DIDNT have a superstar??  I know, people wanna drag out the Detroit Pistons, but that team had a superstar in Wallace, who was surrounded with borderline superstar players.  The Media never liked Rasheed Wallace, so they slighted him as not being a superstar when he was in Detroit.  Wallace, Billups, Tyshawn, etc. that team had TALENT.  Dont get it twisted.

I know the Hawks want to sell us this thing of winning a championship with role players and a system. Its a NICE story. Show the NBA the San Antonio way, blah, blah, blah.  The Spurs got SUPERSTARS.  They one of the ORIGINAL big THREE teams.  Now they got Aldridge and Leonard paired with Duncan, Parker, etc.

Until the Hawks get better players, it aint happening........... The ONLY team in the NBA right now that would succeed with Bud's system is Golden State because of TALENT............

 

Rasheed Wallace a superstar?  Really?   Wallace was essentially a Lamarcus Aldridge type production player with a chip on his shoulder.  He was not even remotely close to a  superstar.

[Hawkmoor]

14 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

One of the best posts I've ever seen on here. *Round of applause*

 

This Hawks team has 0 chance to accomplish anything

Thanx.  Dont forget Ben Wallace. I thought i mentioned the FOUR time NBA ALLSTAR in my post.................A shot blocking, rebounding MACHINE that dont fit the Hawks " system".

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[JTB]

44 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

The Hawks need to be ASHAMED of themselves. They got their fans in the kitchen trying to come up with combinations of baloney, pig snoots,pig feet, onions, spice and trying to pass it off as filet mignon because they REFUSE to get big time players in Atlanta.

Name ONE NBA championship team that DIDNT have a superstar??  I know, people wanna drag out the Detroit Pistons, but that team had a superstar in Wallace, who was surrounded with borderline superstar players.  The Media never liked Rasheed Wallace, so they slighted him as not being a superstar when he was in Detroit.  Wallace, Billups, Tyshawn, etc. that team had TALENT.  Dont get it twisted.

I know the Hawks want to sell us this thing of winning a championship with role players and a system. Its a NICE story. Show the NBA the San Antonio way, blah, blah, blah.  The Spurs got SUPERSTARS.  They one of the ORIGINAL big THREE teams.  Now they got Aldridge and Leonard paired with Duncan, Parker, etc.

Until the Hawks get better players, it aint happening........... The ONLY team in the NBA right now that would succeed with Bud's system is Golden State because of TALENT............

 

I wouldn't say they refuse to get big time talent but I would say they refuse to go to great limits to get big time players and I think that's the Hawks organization biggest issue.

And it seems to be some if not most hawk fans biggest issue as well. I mean seriously there are some out there that are jumping for joy that horford is coming back next season but not realizing its for a huge max salary which will put us in a hole down some years down the stretch when the salary cap drops and we are paying a 33 year old non superstar player 25+ mil still.

Hawks organization seem to have brainwashed their fans that they have valuable untouchable assets but in reality they don't. Our ONLY untouchable player should be Dennis since he still has a chance to be something huge.

One these good ol days more fans are going to realize without the foundational superstar piece it's not going to matter what team is put on that floor. 

But im extremely fed up! I use to be one of the most optimistic posters on this board but I'm done with that shit. I've realized that the Hawks only do a good job at bringing in level B players (Joe Johnson/Millsap) but they are too afraid to go big or go home. Maybe it's because of other franchises not being able to build contenders around their star players? Minnesota couldn't do anything with love or KG....Raptors couldn't build around VC...but since when did it matter what other franchises where doing? Just because they failed doesn't mean ATL will.

HOW DO HAWK FANS STAY SO OPTIMISTIC WHEN NBA HISTORY SHOWS THAT THERE IS A SUPERSTAR PLAYER ON EVERY CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM THERE EVER WAS....(except Detroit...but that's the only argument you can make out of 50+ years!!!! and even they won ONLY once during that whole time they were together)

WAKE UP HAWK FANS WE NEED A DAMN STAR HERE...not in the future not in the next 10 years...it should be a priority to bring a star here immediately

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, JTB said:

..it should be a priority to bring a star here immediately

Then we should kidnap Durant and hold his hand while he signs that max deal here with us this summer.

[JTB]

10 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Then we should kidnap Durant and hold his hand while he signs that max deal here with us this summer.

By any means necessary! Lol

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by JTB

[macdaddy]

Every team wants a superstar.   The problem is there aren't thirty of them.    What's Bud supposed to do say "well it's a good team but of course since we don't have a superstar i want the fans to understand that we'll never win"

[JTB]

44 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Every team wants a superstar.   The problem is there aren't thirty of them.    What's Bud supposed to do say "well it's a good team but of course since we don't have a superstar i want the fans to understand that we'll never win"

Well I would like to assume Bud is trying to find a way to bring a star to ATL but my concern is more in the lines of when will the priority to get that star, that foundational piece player become or get to the status of "by any means necessary" to bring one on board.

Lets be real if Bud really wanted one he could get one with some of our key players packaged together to acquire one. I just don't believe the Hawks or Bud is desperate enough to go to great lengths to do that just yet....which also means they aren't ready to truly win championship.

[AHF]

Short version:

• Having a superstar doesn't guarantee you a chip.  Not having one just about guarantees you won't win a chip.
• The Pistons did not have a superstar when they won their single championship with Wallace, Bilups, etc.  They are the exception to the rule with a very balanced lineup of Billups (stud, nonsuperstar PG), Rip (borderline All-Star), Prince (all-NBA D plus the ability to pass and spread the floor), Rasheed (All-Star level talent), and Ben Wallace (stud defensive big man).  They did have a superstar when they won back to back championships (Isiah) with some good supporting players (Dumar, Rodman, VJ, etc.).
• I don't have faith in the Spurs system or any system to win rings without superstar talent.  If the Spurs drafted Lamarcus Aldridge and Tim Duncan went somewhere else their history would be completely different.  The reasons their excellent system has won so many rings are Tim Duncan, Manu, Parker and Leonard.  A bad system can ruin the chances of even the greatest talent but the best system won't win without the talent to support it.
• That said, if we are in a position to contend I'll be crossing my fingers that we become another exception to the rule like I was last year.  I'm just still waiting for our first win outside of the first or second round in the playoffs.

[sturt]

Answering the question... my faith in the system is solid b/c it's validated. No mystery that, you need the horses, but the system itself isn't the problem. When you're competing for #1 with 29 other stables and when there are rules that more or less prescribe everyone an equal opportunity to acquire talent (i.e., salary cap and a rational draft structure), and as long as there aren't any superhuman GMs out there... can't really be surprised when it's this tough to compete for a championship, let alone win one. If it was easy, we'd all lose interest. It's a challenge. It's difficult. So when you actually win something, you really do have something to celebrate.

[macdaddy]

58 minutes ago, JTB said:

Well I would like to assume Bud is trying to find a way to bring a star to ATL but my concern is more in the lines of when will the priority to get that star, that foundational piece player become or get to the status of "by any means necessary" to bring one on board.

Lets be real if Bud really wanted one he could get one with some of our key players packaged together to acquire one. I just don't believe the Hawks or Bud is desperate enough to go to great lengths to do that just yet....which also means they aren't ready to truly win championship.

How is that real?   Name one star player that can be the cornerstone of an elite team that we could get with a package of our key players.    That's a fantasy.   If that was possible why wouldn't every team below SA, GS, and Cleveland do that?

[Watchman]

57 minutes ago, JTB said:

Well I would like to assume Bud is trying to find a way to bring a star to ATL but my concern is more in the lines of when will the priority to get that star, that foundational piece player become or get to the status of "by any means necessary" to bring one on board.

Lets be real if Bud really wanted one he could get one with some of our key players packaged together to acquire one. I just don't believe the Hawks or Bud is desperate enough to go to great lengths to do that just yet....which also means they aren't ready to truly win championship.

The key would be how many packaged players would have to go towards acquiring said superstar.  If you get rid of multiple good players to acquire said superstar, have you weakened your roster to the point that adding a superstar doesn't help make things any better?

For example, if you traded Teague and Al (assuming he was re-signed) to get Durant (assuming he was re-signed or chose not to opt out), you'd have Durant, Millsap, Schröder, Korver, Splinter, perhaps Bazemore, perhaps Humphries, perhaps Thabo, (if we re-signed Bazemore, Humphries and Thabo), and some bargain basement filler roster pieces.   Can that team win?  Would it be worth it to Durant to leave OKC to take a chance on the Hawks?  Would our situation be better than what he has in OKC?  By the time Durant's contract ran out, we might have made our way back to be being a decent team, but Durant would have been wasted during the rebuild.

 

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, Watchman said:

The key would be how many packaged players would have to go towards acquiring said superstar.  If you get rid of multiple good players to acquire said superstar, have you weakened your roster to the point that adding a superstar doesn't help make things any better?

For example, if you traded Teague and Al (assuming he was re-signed) to get Durant (assuming he was re-signed or chose not to opt out), you'd have Durant, Millsap, Schröder, Korver, Splinter, perhaps Bazemore, perhaps Humphries, perhaps Thabo, (if we re-signed Bazemore, Humphries and Thabo), and some bargain basement filler roster pieces.   Can that team win?  Would it be worth it to Durant to leave OKC to take a chance on the Hawks?  Would our situation be better than what he has in OKC?  By the time Durant's contract ran out, we might have made our way back to be being a decent team, but Durant would have been wasted during the rebuild.

 

All very true but misses the point that OKC would never trade Durant for Teague and Al.   They wouldn't trade him for any package of our players.   If they would we'd do that in a second.