Let's talk the "ceiling" with this team

[Diesel]

33 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Being a top-tier defense doesn't mean as much as it used to.  I didn't even know the Hawks were #1 in the league in FG% against.  You gotta drop down 12 slots to find the eventual NBA champion.

I thought there was a "formula" versus LeBron.  After this past Finals, I don't anymore.  When he's hitting the glass hard there isn't anything the new-look Warriors, Spurs, or Pacers can do about it.  

Dwight will help no doubt and Hump is an excellent offensive glass man, but rebounding is a total team effort.  If Dennis can average 5 and the rest of the guards follow his lead, we have a glimmer of hope.  I also thought we had a punchers chance to win and didn't question the competitiveness of our squad versus the Cavs the past two seasons so maybe I'm just ignorant.  

Never has a team showed me that the increase of intensity in the playoffs is a tangible object more than the Hawks.  To fall flat on their faces two years straight to the same team is just mindboggling with a top-flight coach.

Don't be fooled... Lebron had lots of Help to win against the warriors.   First off the refs whistles fit the Cleveland style. Second Bogut got hurt. 

Bogut getting hurt gave Lebron and Company the Boards so that they could dominate the inside against the Warriors.  IF you look at their playoff run.  Toronto's big was also out... and Our Big was a 3.5 rpg Wuss. 

 

[Thomas]

I know Bud loves Kyle but at some point he'll have to take the blatant hint that him being on the floor a lot of minutes begins to run out of steam for us no matter what the plus/minus stats show. The playoffs being the biggest and most obvious problem there. So with his numbers reduced at some point this year I'm hoping Prince does indeed earn the  small forward minutes that helps keep most or even all of Baze's minutes at the two. Kyle, Thabo, THJ and even Bembry will cover the backup minutes then. At that point I think we should be ECF material. Feeling good about our young point and our bigs for the playoffs (injury free of course). 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Thomas said:

I know Bud loves Kyle but at some point he'll have to take the blatant hint that him being on the floor a lot of minutes begins to run out of steam for us no matter what the plus/minus stats show. The playoffs being the biggest and most obvious problem there. So with his numbers reduced at some point this year I'm hoping Prince does indeed earn the  small forward minutes that helps keep most or even all of Baze's minutes at the two. Kyle, Thabo, THJ and even Bembry will cover the backup minutes then. At that point I think we should be ECF material. Feeling good about our young point and our bigs for the playoffs (injury free of course). 

I think just for the sake of saving his Body, Bud will play a little more THJr for Korver.  But don't be fooled, the biggest beneficiary of winning the Dw8 sweepstakes could be Korver.   With a low post threat, you make it harder for teams to pay full attention to an eagle eye shooter. 

[RedDawg#8]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 9:14 AM, benhillboy said:

Being a top-tier defense doesn't mean as much as it used to.  I didn't even know the Hawks were #1 in the league in FG% against.  You gotta drop down 12 slots to find the eventual NBA champion.

I thought there was a "formula" versus LeBron.  After this past Finals, I don't anymore.  When he's hitting the glass hard there isn't anything the new-look Warriors, Spurs, or Pacers can do about it.  

Dwight will help no doubt and Hump is an excellent offensive glass man, but rebounding is a total team effort.  If Dennis can average 5 and the rest of the guards follow his lead, we have a glimmer of hope.  I also thought we had a punchers chance to win and didn't question the competitiveness of our squad versus the Cavs the past two seasons so maybe I'm just ignorant.  

Never has a team showed me that the increase of intensity in the playoffs is a tangible object more than the Hawks.  To fall flat on their faces two years straight to the same team is just mindboggling with a top-flight coach.

A lot of people I talk to say the same thing about great defense not being as important anymore. My thing is we can not look at stats from the champs on a year to year basis. Those stats are built off of teams that have Lebron James and Steph Curry and a bunch of top-tier players that we simply do not have.  We also cannot get caught up in our own rankings. Yes we had a great and underrated defense last year. Same goes for the year before. Matter of fact Ive always been pushing the narrative that our BEST stretches of basketball under Bud have come when we locked in defensively. Jumpshots come and go, but when we are attacking on defense we become a thing of beauty.

What I'm suggesting isn't that we just maintain that same mindset of "lets play good defense". I'm suggesting that we embrace the truth that we can be a dominating defensive team. A team whose defense will be #1 this year and one of top 2 or 3 defenses since the 2004 Pistons. I'm speaking of an all-time defense, an Identity, one that teams will have to fear playing against,

Now, that may sound lofty and idealistic to many of you but that is the potential that we have. We only have to embrace that identity. Just like Dwight saying his goal is to win a championship for Atlanta. To become a champ in the pros you cant depend on luck. You have to have some facet about you that is dominating. Most of the Champs have a player or 2 or 3 that can flat out dominate. WE DONT. I mean, maybe Dwight can return to his old self and be the  best big man in the game again, or maybe not. But we cant bank on 1 player like other contenders can.... so how can we dominate? Take the one thing we have been consistently good at, and make it better.

 

As for the 2nd bolded part, that is very true. Which is why I believe owning a dominating mentality is vital for THIS Hawks roster. We have been the quiet good guys for too long. Its time to make people take notice of us. Bring the intensity. No more sleepwalking thru entire quarters hoping the bench can bail us out. No more crying to refs because the stars get away with murder and we cant even sneeze their way without it being a foul. No more of it. Its time to start flexing some muscle, its time to make some people uncomfortable. Its time to make stars say, "I hate playing against the Atlanta Hawks" why? "Because they bring it every game, and keep bringing it. They just keep coming at you"

That's the kind of squad that we are deep down. That's the kind of squad that can beat a super team without a super star (no disrespect to Dwight).  Attitude is an identity. There's no need to be afraid of the increase in intensity when youre the most intense team every game anyway. Let us stop trying to imitate this team or that team and just be the best versions of ourselves and watch the league struggle to figure us out. We did it before, won 60 games. Lets evolve our mindset even further now, think outside of that 60-win box and in to a much larger box that includes an NBA title and a lot of hurt feeling along the way.

[BigDog90]

On 7/25/2016 at 10:41 AM, ViewsFromTheSquawk said:

The main gripe between media,fans,etc. in the final moments of our Teague,Horf,Carroll era was that we didn't have a high ceiling which eventually came to fruition as we got swept by Cleveland in back to back seasons. Now with Dennis,Dwight,and Prince/Bembry what's the ceiling? Could we get back to an 50+ win team. Or does this team have a same outlook as ours did over the past 3 seasons? 

I think they're a 3rd-6th seed team like last season but just like the team with Teague and Horford being the x-factors, same scenario with Dennis and Dwight.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 7/25/2016 at 0:04 PM, Lurker said:

It wasn't a rebounding issue with Cleveland this time, they failed to address what were the two real problems, shooting (I'll explain below) and being comfortable with starting a large 3 instead of starting a three guard lineup.

If you want to beat a superstar laden team with no superstars, you have to have the ability to get hot from three, and this was not addressed. Kyle Korver will rebound to 43-45% from three IMO, but since he's continuing to slow down with his age, he cannot be considered a factor in the playoffs next season (unless Marcus Smart is defending him). So after him, your best three point shooter is.....Kent Bazemore, and while he could show that his first half of the season shooting was legit and his drop off was due to fatigue, you can't be counting on it.

So the ceiling of this team is 54 wins and lose in 6 to the ECF to Cleveland again. Break that ugly streak, but not break through and it's because the ugly little secret about this team is they aren't as good of a three point shooting team as they want to tout.

Taking Cleveland to 6 games in the ECF would definitely be "breaking through".

There should be no championship expectations with this team at this moment.  So losing to arguably a top 5 great of all time in 6 games in the ECF, should be beyond expectations.

[Thomas]

18 hours ago, Diesel said:

I think just for the sake of saving his Body, Bud will play a little more THJr for Korver.  But don't be fooled, the biggest beneficiary of winning the Dw8 sweepstakes could be Korver.   With a low post threat, you make it harder for teams to pay full attention to an eagle eye shooter. 

Hoping that is the case because we at the very least know Kyle can be deadly when freed up with even a little bit of space. Being healthy from the get go this year should mean his stroke is ready and won't be fighting to find it after surgeries like last year. Just the same I'm thinking this is the first transition year for him with the Hawks moving him to a lesser role minutes wise by the second half of the season. I'm putting quite a bit of stock into Prince by the time playoffs come around. With that situation really can see Kyle shooting daggers into the other teams second units or fatigued starters. Third game against the Cavs when he first came off the bench was his only good shooting game for him against them. Seems like a sign of the future in the playoffs for us.      

[ThomasCredle]

On July 27, 2016 at 2:16 PM, RedDawg#8 said:

A lot of people I talk to say the same thing about great defense not being as important anymore. My thing is we can not look at stats from the champs on a year to year basis. Those stats are built off of teams that have Lebron James and Steph Curry and a bunch of top-tier players that we simply do not have.  We also cannot get caught up in our own rankings. Yes we had a great and underrated defense last year. Same goes for the year before. Matter of fact Ive always been pushing the narrative that our BEST stretches of basketball under Bud have come when we locked in defensively. Jumpshots come and go, but when we are attacking on defense we become a thing of beauty.

What I'm suggesting isn't that we just maintain that same mindset of "lets play good defense". I'm suggesting that we embrace the truth that we can be a dominating defensive team. A team whose defense will be #1 this year and one of top 2 or 3 defenses since the 2004 Pistons. I'm speaking of an all-time defense, an Identity, one that teams will have to fear playing against,

Now, that may sound lofty and idealistic to many of you but that is the potential that we have. We only have to embrace that identity. Just like Dwight saying his goal is to win a championship for Atlanta. To become a champ in the pros you cant depend on luck. You have to have some facet about you that is dominating. Most of the Champs have a player or 2 or 3 that can flat out dominate. WE DONT. I mean, maybe Dwight can return to his old self and be the  best big man in the game again, or maybe not. But we cant bank on 1 player like other contenders can.... so how can we dominate? Take the one thing we have been consistently good at, and make it better.

 

As for the 2nd bolded part, that is very true. Which is why I believe owning a dominating mentality is vital for THIS Hawks roster. We have been the quiet good guys for too long. Its time to make people take notice of us. Bring the intensity. No more sleepwalking thru entire quarters hoping the bench can bail us out. No more crying to refs because the stars get away with murder and we cant even sneeze their way without it being a foul. No more of it. Its time to start flexing some muscle, its time to make some people uncomfortable. Its time to make stars say, "I hate playing against the Atlanta Hawks" why? "Because they bring it every game, and keep bringing it. They just keep coming at you"

That's the kind of squad that we are deep down. That's the kind of squad that can beat a super team without a super star (no disrespect to Dwight).  Attitude is an identity. There's no need to be afraid of the increase in intensity when youre the most intense team every game anyway. Let us stop trying to imitate this team or that team and just be the best versions of ourselves and watch the league struggle to figure us out. We did it before, won 60 games. Lets evolve our mindset even further now, think outside of that 60-win box and in to a much larger box that includes an NBA title and a lot of hurt feeling along the way.

I agree that the ceiling for this team will be largely determined by their mindset and playing style.   I think with Dwight and Dennis playing a more aggressive style than Horford and Teague who could both get really passive at times this team will potentially be very aggressive on both ends.

We need another dependable three point shooter to emerge as well.   If THjr improves in year two like some other players have and Delaney shoots like he did in Euro league we could be a solid three point shooting team especially if Dwight demands attention in post.

if one of the rookies emerges and can be a starting 3 by the playoffs and Baze can play the 2 we are deep.   I could see ECF for sure.

if we don't get growth from our rookies and THjr and run Baze and Korver huge minutes or no chemistry between Dwight and Dennis emerges I think we are probably a tough out in round 1 and beaten soundly in the second round.

[Thomas]

19 minutes ago, ThomasCredle said:

I agree that the ceiling for this team will be largely determined by their mindset and playing style.   I think with Dwight and Dennis playing a more aggressive style than Horford and Teague who could both get really passive at times this team will potentially be very aggressive on both ends.

We need another dependable three point shooter to emerge as well.   If THjr improves in year two like some other players have and Delaney shoots like he did in Euro league we could be a solid three point shooting team especially if Dwight demands attention in post.

if one of the rookies emerges and can be a starting 3 by the playoffs and Baze can play the 2 we are deep.   I could see ECF for sure.

if we don't get growth from our rookies and THjr and run Baze and Korver huge minutes or no chemistry between Dwight and Dennis emerges I think we are probably a tough out in round 1 and beaten soundly in the second round.

Agree very much. I don't really think about the possible chemistry problems at the moment because that would be the worst case scenario. Would feel as bad as major injuries if we're dealing with that stuff at playoff time. Staying very positive. 

[Buzzard]

On 7/27/2016 at 5:33 PM, BigDog90 said:

I think they're a 3rd-6th seed team like last season but just like the team with Teague and Horford being the x-factors, same scenario with Dennis and Dwight.

Schröder shot .452 vs Teague who shot .380 in the playoffs. Howard shot .542 vs Horford who shot .466 in the playoffs. Teague was reportedly injured but their career playoff averages indicate this really does not matter. Neither has a history for bringing their A Games to the playoffs.

Horfords career playoff FG% is .483 vs .535 in the regular season.  Teagues career playoff  FG% is ..402 vs . 448 in the regular season.

I like our chances of at least extending the Cavs in a series now a lot better.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Buzzard

[BigDog90]

On 7/29/2016 at 9:32 AM, Buzzard said:

Schröder shot .452 vs Teague who shot .380 in the playoffs. Howard shot .542 vs Horford who shot .466 in the playoffs. Teague was reportedly injured but their career playoff averages indicate this really does not matter. Neither has a history for bringing their A Games to the playoffs.

Horfords career playoff FG% is .483 vs .535 in the regular season.  Teagues career playoff  FG% is ..402 vs . 448 in the regular season.

I like our chances of at least extending the Cavs in a series now a lot better.

Yeah true.  I just hope ATL can avoid CLE in the 1st/2nd round unlike last season.

[Buzzard]

37 minutes ago, BigDog90 said:

Yeah true.  I just hope ATL can avoid CLE in the 1st/2nd round unlike last season.

We will not see Cleveland in the 2nd round unless one of our best players ism out for a lot of the season. 2nd round maybe; but I can see us getting the 2nd or 3rd seed if we can gel. With Howard, our two rookies, plus Dennis starting; the firs two months will be about getting to know each other on the court and in practice.

I like our chances so does Vegas, even if ESPN does not!

[BigDog90]

On 7/30/2016 at 6:50 PM, Buzzard said:

We will not see Cleveland in the 2nd round unless one of our best players ism out for a lot of the season. 2nd round maybe; but I can see us getting the 2nd or 3rd seed if we can gel. With Howard, our two rookies, plus Dennis starting; the firs two months will be about getting to know each other on the court and in practice.

I like our chances so does Vegas, even if ESPN does not!

Yeah, IMO 3rd-10th seed should be pretty competitive next year with CLE being 1st and TOR 2nd. I can't wait to see how the team gels on the court.

[RandomFan]

14 minutes ago, BigDog90 said:

Yeah, IMO 3rd-10th seed should be pretty competitive next year with CLE being 1st and TOR 2nd. I can't wait to see how the team gels on the court.

I think you meant to say CLE and ATL competing for 1st and 2nd, with 3rd-10th being pretty competitive below those two. 

[Diesel]

On 7/27/2016 at 2:16 PM, RedDawg#8 said:

A lot of people I talk to say the same thing about great defense not being as important anymore. My thing is we can not look at stats from the champs on a year to year basis. Those stats are built off of teams that have Lebron James and Steph Curry and a bunch of top-tier players that we simply do not have.  We also cannot get caught up in our own rankings. Yes we had a great and underrated defense last year. Same goes for the year before. Matter of fact Ive always been pushing the narrative that our BEST stretches of basketball under Bud have come when we locked in defensively. Jumpshots come and go, but when we are attacking on defense we become a thing of beauty.

What I'm suggesting isn't that we just maintain that same mindset of "lets play good defense". I'm suggesting that we embrace the truth that we can be a dominating defensive team. A team whose defense will be #1 this year and one of top 2 or 3 defenses since the 2004 Pistons. I'm speaking of an all-time defense, an Identity, one that teams will have to fear playing against,

Now, that may sound lofty and idealistic to many of you but that is the potential that we have. We only have to embrace that identity. Just like Dwight saying his goal is to win a championship for Atlanta. To become a champ in the pros you cant depend on luck. You have to have some facet about you that is dominating. Most of the Champs have a player or 2 or 3 that can flat out dominate. WE DONT. I mean, maybe Dwight can return to his old self and be the  best big man in the game again, or maybe not. But we cant bank on 1 player like other contenders can.... so how can we dominate? Take the one thing we have been consistently good at, and make it better.

 

 

Here's the way I see it.   We were a very good defensive team that was terrible at rebounding the ball.   I think that in the few moves we made, we improved upon both our defense and our rebounding.  So to your point that we should be dominant, I believe that we're there... We will be dominant.  

Also, you stated that people say that Basketball has moved away from defense.  That tends to happen when there's the lack of a dominant team.   The Bulls under Jordan and Company were born right after the era of Magic vs. Bird or the Showtime Lakers vs. The Original Big Three.  People loved that series because they were great offensive teams.   Then came the Bad Boys who were a mix of great offense and Hard Nosed Defense.  However, the Bulls that showed up was the team that dominated the game on the defensive side of the floor.  Having Jordan was what made them great but that defense was what made them feared. 

We have the chance to either be the Pistons or the Bulls.  I can't wait to see how our players mesh. 

 

[hazer]

On 7/29/2016 at 9:32 AM, Buzzard said:

Schröder shot .452 vs Teague who shot .380 in the playoffs. Howard shot .542 vs Horford who shot .466 in the playoffs. Teague was reportedly injured but their career playoff averages indicate this really does not matter. Neither has a history for bringing their A Games to the playoffs.

Horfords career playoff FG% is .483 vs .535 in the regular season.  Teagues career playoff  FG% is ..402 vs . 448 in the regular season.

I like our chances of at least extending the Cavs in a series now a lot better.

Plus Shredder plays better D than Teague and D8 crushes Whorefart in the rebounding department, both of which add up to fewer scores by the opposition.

[Guest]

CViv on NBARadio just now.  Synopsis ...

- Lamented the year-round nature of NBA coverage (dafuq you whining about, Chris).

- Says many decisions this summer were attempts at setting some stability for next summer which figures to be one of huge change.

Turning the team over to Dennis as a bit of an audition ahead of deciding whether or not to extend him, several wangs are free next summer (Kyle, Thabo) so draft allows some decisions to be made there.  PaulSap's future will likely be set in part based on how the team is doing by the trade deadline.  They don't want to risk losing him for nothing like Alicia.

- On expectations ... said the team should be a playoff team, if not see above re. PaulSap's future.  Said Paul still not quite over trade rumors.

- Host hinted that drastic change could lead to them being out of playoffs.  CViv said system no longer features exchangeable 4/5 but Budz says Howard will allow him to get back to what he's comfortable doing both offensively/defensively.  Says he's talked to players who think the floor will actually open more due to Howard's impact down low and at the rim (rolling, etc.).

- Expects Prince to contribute.  Both hosts love Bembry's game.  Says obviously somebody under contract will not make the team.  One of the bigs likely gone.  Scott (legal) was cited as a likely candidate.  Muscala possibly.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, kg01 said:

CViv on NBARadio just now.  Synopsis ...

- Lamented the year-round nature of NBA coverage (dafuq you whining about, Chris).

- Says many decisions this summer were attempts at setting some stability for next summer which figures to be one of huge change.

Turning the team over to Dennis as a bit of an audition ahead of deciding whether or not to extend him, several wangs are free next summer (Kyle, Thabo) so draft allows some decisions to be made there.  PaulSap's future will likely be set in part based on how the team is doing by the trade deadline.  They don't want to risk losing him for nothing like Alicia.

- On expectations ... said the team should be a playoff team, if not see above re. PaulSap's future.  Said Paul still not quite over trade rumors.

- Host hinted that drastic change could lead to them being out of playoffs.  CViv said system no longer features exchangeable 4/5 but Budz says Howard will allow him to get back to what he's comfortable doing both offensively/defensively.  Says he's talked to players who think the floor will actually open more due to Howard's impact down low and at the rim (rolling, etc.).

- Expects Prince to contribute.  Both hosts love Bembry's game.  Says obviously somebody under contract will not make the team.  One of the bigs likely gone.  Scott (legal) was cited as a likely candidate.  Muscala possibly.

Sounds like C-Viv reads the squawkboard then goes on radio and talk.

 

Quote

Count Paul Millsap among those in the Hawks organization would initially believe that the addition of Dwight Howard will help the team’s offensive floor spacing next season.

How does Millsap expect the Hawks’ offense be different with the addition of Howard?

“Offensively, we have a consistent roll guy, a guy who can put pressure on the basket every time you set a pick-and-roll,” Millsap told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Monday. “He’s a guy you have to pay attention to down low. We are hoping, and I think everyone sees the vision, of the court opening up. A lot more open shots. A little more physicality. Things that we needed to get better at, I think we have.”

Millsap added that opponents will have to pay close attention to Howard’s ability to play inside. If that is the case, shots should be available on the perimeter. It will be a contrast from a system where Horford pulled the opposition away from the basket.

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Sounds like C-Viv reads the squawkboard then goes on radio and talk.

Well, to be fair, I have always accused a former poster (*ahem* hawksfanatic *cough*) of actually being CViv.  He never really protested the accusation so much and he's now had his account deleted so ...

He's not here to defend himself so .... haha

[Thomas]

Today on Twitter C-Viv is more concerned about playing UNO than Hawks roundball.