How many legit Franchise Players are in the NBA?

[Wurider05]

A few days ago I posted this on another website and the thread got heated. Now I want to share it with my hawks family with some better clarification on my part.

It appears that the line between elite franchise player and really good player is blurring. There are alot of what I call fake superstars in the league. 

Franchise
Lebron
KD
Curry
Leonard
James Harden
Westbrook-I am on the fence about him

Really good player
Paul George
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Chris Paul
Giannis
Anthony Davis
John Wall

Good Player
Paul Milsap
Draymond Green
Klay Thompson
Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Fake Superstars (can be really good/good) dont make their team mates better but they get their empty stats
Damian Lillard
Blake Griffin
Demarcus Cousins
Carmelo Anthony

Now this list doesn't include  some players but I just wanted to give some idea as to where I was heading with my lists. Again there are alot of guys I left off but the Franchise list is complete in  my opinion. I got 6 folks.  If this is what the Hawks need then we are not the only ones.  I would peg Dennis as a good player who can be very good if he can get his stuff together.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Wurider05

[Plainview1981]

Lebron James

[CP61]

I mean franchise player and top tier superstars are different. Al Horford was a franchise player here. I'd say it means a guy you build your team around and don't consider getting rid of. 

So I'd say the franchise players in the NBA is a long list. We don't have one now as everyone could be moved for the right price I'd guess. I know some stars just got traded, but that was in a contract year, so I'm not counting that. 

[Flight]

I'm iffy on Westbrook, when KD left he didn't really make anyone better. He just improved himself for what that's worth.

[Diesel]

This list has a lot of so-so defenders at the top.  

I would think that a superstar player would be a two way player and not just a scorer.

[benhillboy]

Of course Lebron is in a tier by himself.  Second tier Curry, Leonard, and Giannis.  Third tier Davis, Wall, Towns, and Embiid.

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

I would think that a superstar player would be a two way player and not just a scorer.

You'd be right.  So many "superstars" slack on that end because the average fan doesn't pay attention (Lilliard is notorious).  Nothing more damaging to a team's morale than their best or highest paid player doing so.  I also watch for hustle plays and stats, the main reasons I don't care much for Westbrook or Durant.  They were 9th and 11th in real plus minus, behind Draymond and Gobert who don't need to shoot at all.

Guys like Sap, Gasol, George, Hayward, Butler, Whiteside, and the Raptors boys are great 2nd and 3rd options.

[benhillboy]

If Houston gets Sap they're gonna be nasty.  I don't know about that Harden/Paul fit but Sap between Ariza, Nene, and Capela is a great fit.

If Lonzo actually has Jason Kidd-level vision and passing (which I seriously doubt) it won't take long for him to be a franchise guy.

[Diesel]

IF Minny gets Sap, they will challenge for the West. 

[Jeffery123]

9 hours ago, Wurider05 said:

A few days ago I posted this on another website and the thread got heated. Now I want to share it with my hawks family with some better clarification on my part.

It appears that the line between elite franchise player and really good player is blurring. There are alot of what I call fake superstars in the league. 

Franchise
Lebron
KD
Curry
Leonard
James Harden
Westbrook-I am on the fence about him

Really good player
Paul George
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Chris Paul
Giannis
Anthony Davis
John Wall

Good Player
Paul Milsap
Draymond Green
Klay Thompson
Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Fake Superstars (can be really good/good) dont make their team mates better but they get their empty stats
Damian Lillard
Blake Griffin
Demarcus Cousins
Carmelo Anthony

Now this list doesn't include  some players but I just wanted to give some idea as to where I was heading with my lists. Again there are alot of guys I left off but the Franchise list is complete in  my opinion. I got 6 folks.  If this is what the Hawks need then we are not the only ones.  I would peg Dennis as a good player who can be very good if he can get his stuff together.

no mention of the finals MVP??

 

[ATLien_]

Franchise - Your favorite players favorite player
LeBron - most physically superior athlete we've seen. Physically he's the Wilt of this generation, yet he's so skilled. 
 

KD - all time great scorer that will hold every scoring record when he retires. Showed a very well rounded game this year and did all the little things to help GS get that ship. Good D on LeBron in finals when matched up with him. 

Leonard - most complete player in the NBA now.  Top 5 scorer and number 1 defender. Was shutting down KD before his injury. Modern day Scottie Pippen that developed elite scoring ability. 
 

Curry - torn on him. He's in a perfect situation to cover his flaws. Anyone of the above guys could shut him down in a vacuum. 

Honorable mention Chris Paul. Best PG of this generation. Can't ever seen to find the right team. To bad he jumped the gun or he might be a T-wolve. That would have been a real contender. 

That's it: James Harden plays no D and is a free throw line superstar. He struggles to maintain his level when the superstar calls stop in the playoffs.

Westbrook is a chucker that's teammates will always suffer around. If he matures he can become a Franchise player. His mental approach is holding him back. Early Jordan mental approach. 

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by ATLien_

[capstone21]

9 hours ago, Wurider05 said:

A few days ago I posted this on another website and the thread got heated. Now I want to share it with my hawks family with some better clarification on my part.

It appears that the line between elite franchise player and really good player is blurring. There are alot of what I call fake superstars in the league. 

Franchise
Lebron
KD
Curry
Leonard
James Harden
Westbrook-I am on the fence about him

Really good player
Paul George
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Chris Paul
Giannis
Anthony Davis
John Wall

Good Player
Paul Milsap
Draymond Green
Klay Thompson
Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Fake Superstars (can be really good/good) dont make their team mates better but they get their empty stats
Damian Lillard
Blake Griffin
Demarcus Cousins
Carmelo Anthony

Now this list doesn't include  some players but I just wanted to give some idea as to where I was heading with my lists. Again there are alot of guys I left off but the Franchise list is complete in  my opinion. I got 6 folks.  If this is what the Hawks need then we are not the only ones.  I would peg Dennis as a good player who can be very good if he can get his stuff together.

I don't have a problem your list except I would put give Lebron a tier all by himself , KAT in the really Good or Good players and would drop Love and potentially Irving to good or fake superstars ... I think Irving who really is just a scorer (an excellent scorer) but not a playmaker and def not a defender is one of the most overrated guys in the league.  

[Diesel]

32 minutes ago, ATLien_ said:

Franchise - Your favorite players favorite player

That's it: James Harden plays no D and is a free throw line superstar. He struggles to maintain his level when the superstar calls stop in the playoffs.

Westbrook is a chucker that's teammates will always suffer around. If he matures he can become a Franchise player. His mental approach is holding him back. Early Jordan mental approach. 

 

What about Paul George?

George is a 2 way player... he's everybit the scorer that KD is but he has never had a 2nd guy to take over for him like KD has.

What about Dwayne Wade?

He's a candidate for Mt. Rushmore. 

And DeMar Derozen?

Derozen is the Rodney Dangerfield of the NBA.   27/5/ and 4.

 

[Wretch]

(EDIT to answer the thread question: Anybody in 1a or 1b is a Franchise player IMO.)

As with everything, the conversation about NBA "stars" is a subjective one.  I do think people get too caught up in the labels though.  Personally, I break it down to star quality and talent tiers.  Star quality being more relative to how good a player is at whatever they do well.  Talent tiers being more relative to what is necessary to build a contender.  I also concern myself more with the latter than the former.

As it pertains to star quality...

1a) Super Star or All Pro:  I'm not sure what you call these kinds of players, but they are bigger than the game.  These kinds of players you can spot across every sport (Serena Williams, Joe Montana, Walter Payton, Nolan Ryan, Wayne Gretzky)

In the NBA, those players are akin to:

• Michael Jordan
• LeBron James
• Kareem Abdul Jabbar
• Magic Johnson
• Tim Duncan
• Shaq

1b) Perennial All Star or All NBA 1st/2nd: This would be the guys just below that transcendent level.  They will make pretty much every All Star team, and will be in the All NBA conversation every year...but at the end of the day, they're no Michael Jordan or Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

• Russell Westbrook
• Paul George
• Dominique Wilkins
• Dikembe Mutombo
• Steve Nash
• Chris Webber
• Kevin Garnett

1c) All Star:  Very good players, but these guys will be hit or miss any given All Star Game

• Al Horford
• Amar'e Stoudemire
• Joe Johnson
• Rip Hamilton
• Shawn Marion

There is some overlap and blurring, but if you have to question if a guy belongs in one group or the other, then he probably belongs in the lower tier.  You can't plan on finding one of those 1a) players.  Those dudes are super rare and typically stay with a single franchise.  If they do move, there is a very limited window of teams that even get to talk to them.  

These are the players you don't let get away and the ones that typically draw other top tier talent to them.  These guys don't come around often though, so you can hope for a LeBron...but you don't hold your breath.  Realistically, you can plan on building a core around 2-3 of the other two groups, with at least 1 perennial All Star, and contend IMO.

As it pertains to talent tiers:

Tier 1 is any All Pro (1a) or perennial All Star/All NBA (1b) talent. 
Tier 2 is any All Star (1c)
Tier 3 is any very good role player
Tier 4 is everybody else

Champions and contenders typically feature

• Tier 1: Minimum 2 of these guys
• Tier 2: Maybe 1 of these guys
• Tier 3: Several of these guys
  ^^Hawks Fan FUN Fact! We are always drooling over these Tier 3 guys for some reason.  
  Every year, like these dudes will put us over in any given season...

Good, but not contending (playoff) teams feature

• Tier 1: Maybe 1 of these guys, but not necessary
• Tier 2: ALWAYS 1 of these guys, the better teams have two
  ^^This is YOUR Atlanta Hawks team every year FYI
• Tier 3: Mostly these guys, but not necessarily the top of the crop
• Tier 4: Several of these guys propped up as Tier 3 guys

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

IF Minny gets Sap, they will challenge for the West. 

Lol!

[ViewsFromTheSquawk]

Well to be honest I think Giannis is a definite franchise guy and is also make an argument for Jokic.... 

[DennistheMenace17]

Giannis Abcdefghijklmnop is a franchise player.

[KB21]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

IF Minny gets Sap, they will challenge for the West. 

They will be a playoff team, but they will still be clearly behind the Warriors and Spurs.