Let's settle It (Tankers vs non Tankers

[Alex]

11 hours ago, sillent said:

I say 38- 41

Deal.

Less than 30 wins for the Hawks and I win a undetermined prize.  They win more than 38 and you win?  Anything between 30-37 is a wash?

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

1. Trading Howard for crap...
2. Buying out Crawford 
3. Trading for Crawford in the first place. 
4. Not getting a return on Millsap.
5. Not making a first offer to THjr.  Not matching THJr. 
6. Signing Moose. 

These are moves that move us out of contention. 

This is where the big disconnect begins!  Diesel firmly believes that last year's team was in contention for something.  What? I don't know.  If he was thinking title run then all I can offer is.    Diesel doesn't believe that a team or a direction with a certain team can run its course.  He believes that you can just continue to stretch it out forever.  Which team has done that other than the Spurs with good luck.  Heck even their run looks to be in jeopardy with so many aging players on the roster.  This is the only way I can understand him and I think others should start to look at him in this manner.

[Diesel]

58 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

This is where the big disconnect begins!  Diesel firmly believes that last year's team was in contention for something.  What? I don't know.  If he was thinking title run then all I can offer is.    Diesel doesn't believe that a team or a direction with a certain team can run its course.  He believes that you can just continue to stretch it out forever.  Which team has done that other than the Spurs with good luck.  Heck even their run looks to be in jeopardy with so many aging players on the roster.  This is the only way I can understand him and I think others should start to look at him in this manner.

No.. I do believe that a team can run it course... and maybe that team did... But here's my truest Belief...

If you are "retooling"  Get Value for Value.   Don't give up Value for NOTHING.

We gave up Value for Nothing.  Even Cap value... Cap space was traded for a LATE LATE first round pick.... That's nothing.  Sure sign that we're tanking.  My belief is formed upon watching us trade Dominique for Danny Manning.  Maybe Nique had "run his course" in Atlanta... but the Lesson learned is that if you're going to trade value, get more than a 3 month rental for him. 

It's like taking our running car that we don't plan to put any more money into and giving it away then going to the car lot looking for cars.   Why not use that running car as a trade-in and getting some of the price knocked off the expense of the new car.. or why not sell that car for cash and use that cash to help buy a new car.   Those of you who applaud the moves of our GM are saying... NO.. it was better than we just get no value in return for our value.  TO that... I can't get with it. 

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

No.  

San Antonio had a series of injuries that took them from the Western Conference elite, to the bottom.   David Robinson got hurt and didn't come back until mid-December, when the Spurs were already terrible.   He plays about 5 - 6 games, then breaks his foot.   Season over for David.   And Sean Elliott only played 1/2 of the season.

Nique was initially acquired by the Spurs to give them extra scoring off the bench.  He ends up having to log major minutes. They had absolutely no intention to tank the 1996 - 97 season.  They had just won 59 games the season before, but came up short . . again . . in the playoffs.

So the Spurs won 59 games in 1996 . . . see their top 2 players go out with injury . . . end up losing 60+ games . . . get the #1 pick ( who just happens to end up being one of the top 5 PFs of all time ) . . . AND they get both of their top 2 players back the following year from injury.

That's not tanking.  That's being blessed.   That's like a track athlete almost losing their leg in a freak car accident, taking 12 months to rehab, then winning the 100m sprint in the Olympics the following year.

 

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/articles/the-myth-of-the-tanking-spurs

 

Yes.  San Antonio tank.. Yes. they had injuries... TO David Robinson twice.  BUT

Greg Poppovich fired Bob Hill for NO apparent reason and took over the coaching job.  Bob Hill had taken San Antonio to 62-20 and 59-23 seasons leading to the Robinson injury.  When Robinson got hurt the second time, they went into full out tank.   Did you ever notice what Sean Elliot's injury was?   Tendenitis.  I know it's serious sometimes.. But story is that he had chronic tendenitis that he had played with for years and decided that after Robinson went out, this was the time to finally fix it because coach was going to keep him out of games for the rest of the season.    Chuck Persons was on that team and I read somewhere where Popp told him that he will not suit up this season.. "just collect your check".   Why not play Dominique?  Dominique was old and didn't play defense.  Lose competitively. 

 

[AHF]

SA definitely went into "this season is wasted so lets lose as much as possible" mode after injuries struck that season.  Whether that is tanking or not depends on your definition but it was clearly losing on purpose.

[Peoriabird]

49 minutes ago, Diesel said:

No.. I do believe that a team can run it course... and maybe that team did... But here's my truest Belief...

If you are "retooling"  Get Value for Value.   Don't give up Value for NOTHING.

We gave up Value for Nothing.  Even Cap value... Cap space was traded for a LATE LATE first round pick.... That's nothing.  Sure sign that we're tanking.  My belief is formed upon watching us trade Dominique for Danny Manning.  Maybe Nique had "run his course" in Atlanta... but the Lesson learned is that if you're going to trade value, get more than a 3 month rental for him. 

It's like taking our running car that we don't plan to put any more money into and giving it away then going to the car lot looking for cars.   Why not use that running car as a trade-in and getting some of the price knocked off the expense of the new car.. or why not sell that car for cash and use that cash to help buy a new car.   Those of you who applaud the moves of our GM are saying... NO.. it was better than we just get no value in return for our value.  TO that... I can't get with it. 

 

If that is your issue diesel then I agree with you but we have been over this a million times.  The damage was done 2 years ago which is why we are in this situation now.  Wilcox recommended 2 years ago that we go in a different direction but the then President of basketball operations overruled him. So if you want to complain about losing players without getting value in return, you are 2 years too late.  You should have been starting all of these threads after the 2015 season.  At this moment Schlenk has to work with the current circumstances and I agree with his approach which is let everyone else compete in this year's version of the NBA arms race.  Find diamonds in the rough and bargains and enter the race over the next couple of years with a significant advantage over teams scrambling for cap space.  If Schlenk nails these next 5 draft picks like he did the Collins pick then all is forgotten even by the few hold outs who refuse to understand such a sound strategy.

[Diesel]

36 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

If that is your issue diesel then I agree with you but we have been over this a million times.  The damage was done 2 years ago which is why we are in this situation now.  Wilcox recommended 2 years ago that we go in a different direction but the then President of basketball operations overruled him. So if you want to complain about losing players without getting value in return, you are 2 years too late.  You should have been starting all of these threads after the 2015 season.  At this moment Schlenk has to work with the current circumstances and I agree with his approach which is let everyone else compete in this year's version of the NBA arms race.  Find diamonds in the rough and bargains and enter the race over the next couple of years with a significant advantage over teams scrambling for cap space.  If Schlenk nails these next 5 draft picks like he did the Collins pick then all is forgotten even by the few hold outs who refuse to understand such a sound strategy.

Yes... that's my issue.. and along with that... I differ from you in that I don't think Schlenk is maximizing the value.   He is just conducting a haphazard firesale.   We talk about him nailing the John Collins pick... well when a player falls into your lap, I don't think it's great GMing to take him.  Moerover, with the capspace that we wasted for LAC's late first round pick.. we could have used it to do other things.   It was a waste of value.   I haven't been impressed with any of the moves that Schlenk has made nor have I been impressed with how he has handled Hawks players.   Never made an offer to Sap and  Blindsided Dwight.  The only Hawk that was happy with Schlenk was Crawford and that was just wasted possibility.  Right now, Schlenk has started out Wrong in my eyes. 

 

[benhillboy]

I define tanking as putting Dennis and Prince on ice for the last couple weeks of the season (like the Suns with Booker and Bledsoe) or the owner actually coming out and saying "we're tanking" a la Mark Cuban with a win tally in the mid-twenties or below.  None of that is happening here.  If we're tanking than we have to compete with about 24 other teams.  You'd have to pull up in a M1128 Styker with .105 caliber rounds.

Edited July 25, 2017 by benhillboy

[Vol4ever]

31-51

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, benhillboy said:

I define tanking as putting Dennis and Prince on ice for the last couple weeks of the season (like the Suns with Booker and Bledsoe) or the owner actually coming out and saying "we're tanking" a la Mark Cuban with a win tally in the mid-twenties or below.  None of that is happening here.  If we're tanking than we have to compete with about 24 other teams.  You'd have to pull up in a M1128 Styker with .105 caliber rounds.

YET.

[Lurker]

This team is going to be bad this year.

I have said that this is more rebuilding than tanking until I see otherwise but I'm not optimistic at all about how this team does.

I've said what I'm going to say about everything but let me re-summarize, either use analytics or just don't period, and be careful with how you use them. One way in which you shouldn't is using win shares to translate to how many games a team wins.

I see 25-30 wins, but injuries might make it worse. (I mean legit injuries)

[sillent]

So Tankers include Lurker, Diesel, Alex, Hazer and I'm sure there's more...

 

So far Non Tankers Benhillboy and myself but again I'm sure there's more...

 

Suggestions for a good reward/punishment? 

[benhillboy]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

This team is going to be bad this year.

I have said that this is more rebuilding than tanking until I see otherwise but I'm not optimistic at all about how this team does.

I've said what I'm going to say about everything but let me re-summarize, either use analytics or just don't period, and be careful with how you use them. One way in which you shouldn't is using win shares to translate to how many games a team wins.

I see 25-30 wins, but injuries might make it worse. (I mean legit injuries)

I think it's realistic to divide the total win shares of Paul, Dwight, Thabo, and Tim and divide by 2.  Throw in 3.5 more for another average-efficiency player.  I got 15 wins out of Bembry, Collins, Dedmon, Plumlee, and Bellinelli.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 hours ago, AHF said:

SA definitely went into "this season is wasted so lets lose as much as possible" mode after injuries struck that season.  Whether that is tanking or not depends on your definition but it was clearly losing on purpose.

How were they losing on purpose, when their best player that season was a 36 yr old Dominique?   No Robinson.  No Sean Elliott for 1/2 the year.  Chuck Person missed the entire year too.  

They had a bunch of old role players on that team.   And don't underestimate the loss of Robinson.  He was the offensive and defensive anchor of that team in which everything revolved around.  Without him ( and Dennis Rodman, who went to Chicago ), the Spurs were literally the worst team in the league, instead of a top 5 defensive team.

Here's a mid February game pitting the Hawks vs the Spurs in 1998.  Look at the lineup that the Spurs threw out there.   LOL . . they weren't winning anything with that lineup. even if they tried their hardest.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199702150SAS.html

 

14 hours ago, Diesel said:

Yes.  San Antonio tank.. Yes. they had injuries... TO David Robinson twice.  BUT

Greg Poppovich fired Bob Hill for NO apparent reason and took over the coaching job.  Bob Hill had taken San Antonio to 62-20 and 59-23 seasons leading to the Robinson injury.  When Robinson got hurt the second time, they went into full out tank.   Did you ever notice what Sean Elliot's injury was?   Tendenitis.  I know it's serious sometimes.. But story is that he had chronic tendenitis that he had played with for years and decided that after Robinson went out, this was the time to finally fix it because coach was going to keep him out of games for the rest of the season.    Chuck Persons was on that team and I read somewhere where Popp told him that he will not suit up this season.. "just collect your check".   Why not play Dominique?  Dominique was old and didn't play defense.  Lose competitively. 

 

The Spurs were 3 - 15 when Pop fired Hill.  And ironically, he fired Hill on the very day that Robinson returned, and they won 3 out of 5 games, before he got hurt again.   A lot of people back then thought that Pop might fire Hill after the Spurs came up short again in the playoffs.  Pop wanted to be a coach anyway, and just found the right time to fire Hill.  In the 90s, the Spurs were essentially what the Clippers are today.

That wasn't a tank job by the Spurs.  That was "we lost a top 5 player in the league plus some other important role players" job.

As for Person, he had back surgery right before the start of the 1996 season, and was scheduled to be out 2 - 3 months.  If Pop told him to sit out the rest of the year, it was because they were already horrible and he wouldn't be back until sometime in January anyway.

As for Sean Elliott, his injury history didn't dramatically get better the following year, seeing that he only played in 36 games in Duncan's 1st season.  The only time he was healthy after 1996, was in the 1998 - 99 season, in which he played the entire season + playoffs and didn't miss a game.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, sillent said:

So Tankers include Lurker, Diesel, Alex, Hazer and I'm sure there's more...

 

So far Non Tankers Benhillboy and myself but again I'm sure there's more...

 

Suggestions for a good reward/punishment? 

Add me to the non tanker crowd, as well as KB.   When I make a trip to see the Hawks play, that's a $100 - $200 investment for me round trip.  I damn sure aren't going to pay that kind of money to see a horrible team, unless they're averaging 110 ppg and keeping games hella close.

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, sillent said:

So Tankers include Lurker, Diesel, Alex, Hazer and I'm sure there's more...

 

So far Non Tankers Benhillboy and myself but again I'm sure there's more...

 

Suggestions for a good reward/punishment? 

The problem here Silent is that we have different definitions of tanking.   So... What are you proposing?  Are you proposing putting a number of wins on this season and say.. if we make this many wins.. then the non-tankers are right and if we don't then the tankers are?  Because even if you do that... many non-tankers will say.. just because they lost that many games don't mean that they were tanking.    So first... you have to establish... a set line.  then you can decide who is on what side. 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

How were they losing on purpose, when their best player that season was a 36 yr old Dominique?   No Robinson.  No Sean Elliott for 1/2 the year.  Chuck Person missed the entire year too.  

 

 

The Spurs were 3 - 15 when Pop fired Hill.  And ironically, he fired Hill on the very day that Robinson returned, and they won 3 out of 5 games, before he got hurt again.   A lot of people back then thought that Pop might fire Hill after the Spurs came up short again in the playoffs.  Pop wanted to be a coach anyway, and just found the right time to fire Hill.  In the 90s, the Spurs were essentially what the Clippers are today.

That wasn't a tank job by the Spurs.  That was "we lost a top 5 player in the league plus some other important role players" job.

As for Person, he had back surgery right before the start of the 1996 season, and was scheduled to be out 2 - 3 months.  If Pop told him to sit out the rest of the year, it was because they were already horrible and he wouldn't be back until sometime in January anyway.

As for Sean Elliott, his injury history didn't dramatically get better the following year, seeing that he only played in 36 games in Duncan's 1st season.  The only time he was healthy after 1996, was in the 1998 - 99 season, in which he played the entire season + playoffs and didn't miss a game.

 

First.. Yes.. they were 3-15... without ROBINSON.   I admit that they didn't start the year tanking.  Hill couldn't be fired at the beginning of the year because they were 62-20 and 59-23 for the 2 seasons prior and Bob Hill was very popular in San Antonio.    You don't fire a popular coach because they lose to the eventual WC champs.  Bob Hill was fired because Popp wanted control. 

  However, when Robinson went down the second time... It became tankapooluza.  He didn't let Persons play in Jan.  Sean Elliot started getting DNPs because of tendinitis that he had played 3 or 4 years with.  Then he elected to go ahead and have season ending surgery.   Then there was the Admiral Himself.   David Robinson's second injury was a broken left foot.. really the pinky toe bone i.e. Jones fracture..  He had it surgically fixed using screws.  That process takes 6-8 weeks to recovery and be back on the court.   That mean, Robinson would have been ready to play after the allstar break because he had the surgery right before Christmas.  There were no reported complications in his rehab..  So they just kept him off the court to improve their chance of getting Duncan.  When they saw that they could compete to get Duncan, San Antonio made sure that they put a squad on the floor that would struggle to win.  That's tanking. 

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

For years fans complained about being on the treadmill and now fans are saying we need to stay competitive and get 38 wins... I'm tired of monotony.  This team needs to tank so that we can get some talent on this team to be excited about.  Staying middle of the pack is the worst place to be in the NBA.

 

Honestly, I hope we come in dead last and secure a top 3 pick.

[Thomas]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

The problem here Silent is that we have different definitions of tanking.

Think the real problem is the time of year. No Hawks ball on the floor to watch right now whether good or bad and we are left with discussing definitions of definitions. Ready to watch something now whatever the lineup.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

First.. Yes.. they were 3-15... without ROBINSON.   I admit that they didn't start the year tanking.  Hill couldn't be fired at the beginning of the year because they were 62-20 and 59-23 for the 2 seasons prior and Bob Hill was very popular in San Antonio.    You don't fire a popular coach because they lose to the eventual WC champs.  Bob Hill was fired because Popp wanted control. 

  However, when Robinson went down the second time... It became tankapooluza.  He didn't let Persons play in Jan.  Sean Elliot started getting DNPs because of tendinitis that he had played 3 or 4 years with.  Then he elected to go ahead and have season ending surgery.   Then there was the Admiral Himself.   David Robinson's second injury was a broken left foot.. really the pinky toe bone i.e. Jones fracture..  He had it surgically fixed using screws.  That process takes 6-8 weeks to recovery and be back on the court.   That mean, Robinson would have been ready to play after the allstar break because he had the surgery right before Christmas.  There were no reported complications in his rehab..  So they just kept him off the court to improve their chance of getting Duncan.  When they saw that they could compete to get Duncan, San Antonio made sure that they put a squad on the floor that would struggle to win.  That's tanking. 

D nailed it here.

I don't see how anyone can argue "yeah, they told their best players not to returning for the rest of the season with months still to go but how is that tanking?"  Sitting your best players in a situation like SA was in can make rationale sense.  It is also tanking.  Tanking can be rationale.