The Tank Thread

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Royjr9 said:

Childress and Sheldon were bad picks, so was acie law and countless others. Many of them were flipped for players that helped the hawks get to the winning side of things. Marvin wasn’t a bad pick he just should not have been picked by the hawks.  

Childress, Shelden, Acie, and Marvin were all bad picks.   Marvin was the highest pick this franchise has ever made.   When people come up and say well that was Billy knight and he was an idiot, I remember that many of the same posters were in agreement with the Marvin Williams pick.   So they have no place in hindsight to stand. 

Back to the point, 20% chance of getting an allstar type player.  None of them were flipped for the players that got us on the winning side of things. Ferry won out in FAcy.  not trade.  not the draft.   Based on his trades thus far, I don't think that Schlenk is capable of winning in trades or FAcy.  He doesn't even have a plan on what he's trying to build.  He just wants a shot at the high picks in the draft.   That my friend is the recipe to treadmill. 

 

 

[High5]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

It's funny how you ignore all the other teams that draft in the lottery continuously and never sniff the championship.. some never sniff the playoffs. 

You say overwhelming evidence.  That's funny. 

Let's talk about overwhelming evidence that contributions vs.  coincidence. 

Just about every NBA team has a lottery pick on it.   So, therefore, if a team makes it to the finals and even wins the finals, they fall into that category that the team with a lottery pick won a championship.   Is that overwhelming evidence that contributes or is that a coincidence?

I say coincidence.   IN fact,  I started this thread by talking about all the times that we have had Lottery picks.  I think it was like 9 or 10.  Then I look at how many times we have won the championship during the lottery times (1985)... 0.  How many times have we sniffed being championship calibre? (maybe 1).  So what have all those years of lottery picks proven for us.  Lottery picks without a plan moves you to mediocrity. 

We also know that Young players don't win anything. 

So the teams that win championships are teams that establish their young players with Vets who are worth a damn.

here's our catch 22 that none of the tankers seem to get...

We have never been good at attracting free agents so the only way that we can get said Vets who are worth a damn is by trade.   However, we have a GM who has taken possible trade peices and traded them for Bubble gum.   Literally bubble gum and told us that the fresh taste in our mouth is how championships are won.   He has ZERO clue about FAcy in Atlanta.  Moreover, he has just given FAs more reason to not come here after taking our hometown player and trading him for said bubblegum.  After not offering our 3 time allstar a deal.   Not one offer.   What FA is going to look at us and say, they treat players the way I want to be treated?  What Vet is going to say.. I really want to play beside Baze and Dennis?

So expect us to be in the lottery this year and unless we pipe the knee, we will be back to the teens in our picks (if our lottery player is good) or back in the lottery next year (if he's not).   Either way.. 5 years before we reach upper mediocrity again. 

 

 

 

1. Why does it matter that some teams get stuck in the lottery if the lottery is our only path to a championship? That's being stranded on an island and not swimming out to a raft because you may drown. I'd rather risk it than die on that island.

2. I'm not talking about Richard Jefferson being a lottery pick ~15 years prior to winning a championship off of Cleveland's bench. As I said earlier, 24 of the last 30 champions drafted at least one HOF player on their roster in the top 10. And 5 of the other 6 were the Lakers. That's a very specific and genuine stat. I would say that's overwhelming evidence. 

3. Good owners and GMs don't give 33 year olds $30 million a year just to be nice.  They have to make tough decisions that may not be popular at the time. Fans were furious when the Warriors traded Monta Ellis for an injured center. People thought Ainge was a monster for shipping out IT after everything he did for the franchise. No one cares anymore. Re-signing Sap would have just had us back to being another early exit and delayed the inevitable for another couple of seasons. You can say we should have traded him (and Horford) earlier, but that's not on Schlenk. No one is trading for Sap now. 

4. You're saying our pick will be outside of lottery next year if we hit on our pick this year? Meaning we'll be a playoff team? Meaning we'll be as good as we were last season before Schlenk decided to destroy the franchise? Wow, most "tankers" aren't even that optimistic. What the hell are we even arguing about?  

[DS5]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

He doesn't even have a plan on what he's trying to build.  He just wants a shot at the high picks in the draft.   

So which one is it? Does he not have a plan? Or is he planning to build through the draft with a high pick? 

[Royjr9]

11 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Childress, Shelden, Acie, and Marvin were all bad picks.   Marvin was the highest pick this franchise has ever made.   When people come up and say well that was Billy knight and he was an idiot, I remember that many of the same posters were in agreement with the Marvin Williams pick.   So they have no place in hindsight to stand. 

Back to the point, 20% chance of getting an allstar type player.  None of them were flipped for the players that got us on the winning side of things. Ferry won out in FAcy.  not trade.  not the draft.   Based on his trades thus far, I don't think that Schlenk is capable of winning in trades or FAcy.  He doesn't even have a plan on what he's trying to build.  He just wants a shot at the high picks in the draft.   That my friend is the recipe to treadmill. 

 

 

I wasn’t  around then but been a hawks fan and I can tell you I wanted any pg in the draft besides Tyrone lue garbage ass.they were flip for Cap space and future considerations which were bunged which allowed the hawks to acquire milsap and co. Mike Scott and co made some contributions but hardly moved the needle much for you and secondly.

[davis171]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Childress, Shelden, Acie, and Marvin were all bad picks.   Marvin was the highest pick this franchise has ever made.   When people come up and say well that was Billy knight and he was an idiot, I remember that many of the same posters were in agreement with the Marvin Williams pick.   So they have no place in hindsight to stand. 

Back to the point, 20% chance of getting an allstar type player.  None of them were flipped for the players that got us on the winning side of things. Ferry won out in FAcy.  not trade.  not the draft.   Based on his trades thus far, I don't think that Schlenk is capable of winning in trades or FAcy.  He doesn't even have a plan on what he's trying to build.  He just wants a shot at the high picks in the draft.   That my friend is the recipe to treadmill. 

 

 

So how is resigning a 33 year old PF for a third of your cap being being FA savy? Bud was the guy that let Horford walk with no compensation as well as Sap not Schlenk. Dwight at 23 million is not being savy in FA that ties almost a forth of your cap into a non all-star at this point big nobody wants that. Ferry and Schlenk would have traded both Sap and Horford had they not agreed to team friendly extensions before the deadline Ferryand Schlenk would have sent them out for positive assets or just let the contract expire. The entire team was just intriguing FA on team friendly deals.  http://www.basketballinsiders.com/atlanta-hawks-team-salary/atlanta-hawks-salary-archive-201415/ Please explain   ALSO Ferry and Schlenk would never have signed Dwight Howard to a $70 million deal

Edited March 9, 2018 by davis171

[hazer]

I’m no capologist but wouldn’t Gaze, Fresh Printz, and our Minny and Houston 1st rounders hypothetically net Kawhi if Pop/Buford were feeling cooperative enough to oblige Bud for the Splitter/Aldridge favor? And if so, wouldn’t this be an exciting playoff team pretty quickly with enough cap flexibility and winning to attract a superstar: Menace, Donciccio, Kawhi, J-Bap, Deadmon Walking.

[hazer]

18 minutes ago, hazer said:

I’m no capologist but wouldn’t Gaze, Fresh Printz, and our Minny and Houston 1st rounders hypothetically net Kawhi if Pop/Buford were feeling cooperative enough to oblige Bud for the Splitter/Aldridge favor? And if so, wouldn’t this be an exciting playoff team pretty quickly with enough cap flexibility and winning to attract a superstar: Menace, Donciccio, Kawhi, J-Bap, Deadmon Walking.

That’s essentially 3 1st rounders and a good/multi-positional 6th man for an aging/injured star. A 45 win playoff team in year 2-3 of the “rebuild”.

Edited March 9, 2018 by hazer

[hazer]

5 minutes ago, hazer said:

That’s essentially 3 1st rounders and a good/multi-positional 6th man for an aging/injured star. A 45 win playoff team in year 2-3 of the “rebuild”.

They might even then consider bundling those late teens and 20s Hawks 1st round picks for a late lottery pick for a team looking to drop back.

[davis171]

I'm sure they would be interested but 1)Kawhi would have to decline the supermax 2) Kawhi would have to be traded 3) Kawhi has to agree to sign longterm in ATL.

Edited March 10, 2018 by davis171

[hazer]

1 minute ago, davis171 said:

I'm sure they would be interested but 1)Kawhi would have to decline the supermax 2) Kawhi would have to be traded 3) Kawhi has to agree to sign longterm in ATL.

As one of the resident optimists, I’d like to believe this is probably on Schlenkholzer’s mind. Especially with Bud’s hand in landing Kawhi for the Spurs, his coooeration on the Splitter deal, and my assumption that he’s dreaming of Doncic.

[davis171]

6 minutes ago, hazer said:

As one of the resident optimists, I’d like to believe this is probably on Schlenkholzer’s mind. Especially with Bud’s hand in landing Kawhi for the Spurs, his coooeration on the Splitter deal, and my assumption that he’s dreaming of Doncic.

I'd like to knock on the door but you can't make the move if he is going to bolt for LA in a year. If not sign some interesting targets in FA that slip through big deals draft well like last year and continue to build for the future.

Edited March 10, 2018 by davis171

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, davis171 said:

So how is resigning a 33 year old PF for a third of your cap being being FA savy? Bud was the guy that let Horford walk with no compensation as well as Sap not Schlenk. Dwight at 23 million is not being savy in FA that ties almost a forth of your cap into a non all-star at this point big nobody wants that. Ferry and Schlenk would have traded both Sap and Horford had they not agreed to team friendly extensions before the deadline Ferryand Schlenk would have sent them out for positive assets or just let the contract expire. The entire team was just intriguing FA on team friendly deals.  http://www.basketballinsiders.com/atlanta-hawks-team-salary/atlanta-hawks-salary-archive-201415/ Please explain   ALSO Ferry and Schlenk would never have signed Dwight Howard to a $70 million deal

The entire purpose of signing Dwight, was to see if his presence would help a team who got MURDERED on the boards in the 2015 - 16 season.   Had Horford not got his panties in a bunch, we go into last season with a Horford - Millsap - Howard rotation on the frontline.  The decision would've had to been made to either start Millsap at SF, or bring Howard off the bench.  In either case, all 3 of those players are playing 30+ minutes a game, and probably finishing the game together ( unless the Hawks are leading a close game, in which Dwight would be pulled ).

The acquisition was the correct one to make in the summer of 2016 season.  And with Dwight only signed to 3 years, you could see if that lineup could work for a few years, before pulling the trigger and trading him ( or one of the other two ) in year 3.

As for Sap being 33 years old, that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.  If the goal was to keep the Millsap - Howard frontline together, while the young perimeter kids grow around them, paying those guys isn't the end of the world.  Collins ( if drafted ), would've benefited tremendously from both Millsap and Howard, turning him into a much better player than even what he is right now.

But that's water under the bridge now.  No vets on the team that can teach the young guys how to play.   25 point blowout losses make all of you smile.

All it does for me, is make me not want to watch them.  Just need to fast forward to lottery night, to see where we pick.   Hopefully it's somewhere outside the top 5, so that we can draft one of the guards, preferably Collin Sexton.

Edited March 10, 2018 by TheNorthCydeRises

[davis171]

33 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The entire purpose of signing Dwight, was to see if his presence would help a team who got MURDERED on the boards in the 2015 - 16 season.   Had Horford not got his panties in a bunch, we go into last season with a Horford - Millsap - Howard rotation on the frontline.  The decision would've had to been made to either start Millsap at SF, or bring Howard off the bench.  In either case, all 3 of those players are playing 30+ minutes a game, and probably finishing the game together ( unless the Hawks are leading a close game, in which Dwight would be pulled ).

The acquisition was the correct one to make in the summer of 2016 season.  And with Dwight only signed to 3 years, you could see if that lineup could work for a few years, before pulling the trigger and trading him ( or one of the other two ) in year 3.

As for Sap being 33 years old, that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.  If the goal was to keep the Millsap - Howard frontline together, while the young perimeter kids grow around them, paying those guys isn't the end of the world.  Collins ( if drafted ), would've benefited tremendously from both Millsap and Howard, turning him into a much better player than even what he is right now.

But that's water under the bridge now.  No vets on the team that can teach the young guys how to play.   25 point blowout losses make all of you smile.

All it does for me, is make me not want to watch them.  Just need to fast forward to lottery night, to see where we pick.   Hopefully it's somewhere outside the top 5, so that we can draft one of the guards, preferably Collin Sexton.

Okay no signing Dwight who isn't an all star anymore to anything more than 10-12 million makes no since imo and that's why the hawks struggled to trade him. Sap's contract would have meant no cap space this coming off season so what you going to do to improve your maybe 8 seed hawks? Also in what fantasyland is Sexton a better prospect than Doncic and Ayton. I guarantee you you are a hawks fan that'll boo Doncic purely because he isn't from America. He has played against Kristaps Porzingus, Pau Gasol, Bojan Bogdonavic, Dario Saric, Lauri Markkenan, Tomas Sanoransky, Evan Fournier, etc this past summer and averaged 14pts 8rbd 4 ass if you don't want that idk what to tell you. Also Dwight didn't even average 30 min a game last year so no you're just wrong. He averaged 25 mpg in the playoffs

Edited March 10, 2018 by davis171

[DBac]

Mavs should beat the Grizz tomorrow. Will lock us in at 4 goin into Sunday vs the Bulls.

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, High5 said:

1. Why does it matter that some teams get stuck in the lottery if the lottery is our only path to a championship? That's being stranded on an island and not swimming out to a raft because you may drown. I'd rather risk it than die on that island.

2. I'm not talking about Richard Jefferson being a lottery pick ~15 years prior to winning a championship off of Cleveland's bench. As I said earlier, 24 of the last 30 champions drafted at least one HOF player on their roster in the top 10. And 5 of the other 6 were the Lakers. That's a very specific and genuine stat. I would say that's overwhelming evidence. 

3. Good owners and GMs don't give 33 year olds $30 million a year just to be nice.  They have to make tough decisions that may not be popular at the time. Fans were furious when the Warriors traded Monta Ellis for an injured center. People thought Ainge was a monster for shipping out IT after everything he did for the franchise. No one cares anymore. Re-signing Sap would have just had us back to being another early exit and delayed the inevitable for another couple of seasons. You can say we should have traded him (and Horford) earlier, but that's not on Schlenk. No one is trading for Sap now. 

4. You're saying our pick will be outside of lottery next year if we hit on our pick this year? Meaning we'll be a playoff team? Meaning we'll be as good as we were last season before Schlenk decided to destroy the franchise? Wow, most "tankers" aren't even that optimistic. What the hell are we even arguing about?  

The Lottery is not the only path to a championship.   In fact, I don't think it's been proven that having a lottery player means anything being that just about every NBA team has one. 

Quote

Since the lottery began in 1985, only four No. 1 picks have led the team that drafted them to an NBA championship: David Robinson, Tim Duncan, LeBron James and Kyrie Irving.

Moreover, since Lebron was on Kyrie's team and Duncan was on Robinson's team...   Hmm... that sounds more like 2. 

Quote

For No. 2 picks, it's even worse. The only two second picks since 1985 to win a title with the team that drafted them are Darko Milicic with the 2004 Pistons -- he averaged just 4.7 minutes for that team as an 18-year-old rookie -- and Jason Kidd, who won a title with the Mavericks 17 years after they drafted him.

Quote

The Sacramento Kings haven't gotten a No. 1 or No. 2 pick recently, but they perfectly illustrate the inherent issue with relying on draft picks to improve: If you select the wrong players, you can be bad for a really long time. The Kings have had five top-10 draft picks since selecting DeMarcus Cousins in 2010, and here are the players they took with those picks:

Year	Pick	Player
2011	10	Jimmer Fredette
2012	5	Thomas Robinson
2013	7	Ben McLemore
2014	8	Nik Stauskas
2015	6	Willie Cauley-Stein

The only players remaining on the team are Ben McLeMore and Willie Cauley-Stein and, while they're still young, neither appears capable of even being even the third-best player on a championship team.

The draft is fool's gold.   Period.  It's not the WAY to the title.   The way to the title is by team building and having a plan.   Lottery players will come.  They always do.  It takes extraordinary circumstances to tank and win a title.   Extraordinary... and it takes transcendent generational players too. 

So let's look into the future.   We will be bad, we will get high draft picks for the next few years.. and we may be lucky to get back to mediocrity... and the tankers here will say.. Schlenk is just another bad GM who didn't know how to draft.  or We knew that this could happen or some BS that denies the fact that tanking doesn't win championships. 

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, DS5 said:

So which one is it? Does he not have a plan? Or is he planning to build through the draft with a high pick? 

If you sent your child to college and he applied for a scholarship but didn't have a major.  If he goes through college undeclared for four years.... even though those years were paid for that doesn't mean that your child is in a good position to conquer life.   That's because your child had no plan. 

When we look at going after a lottery pick for the sake of having a pick... it's like going after a scholarship for college for the sake of having a scholarship.   Even if you decide on majoring in basketweaving.. that does not mean that you will be successful in life.   

As a team, we have had the #2 pick in the draft and we have declared a major of Basketweaving and duckbutology.  And that was with a GM who had some semblence of a plan. 

 

[davis171]

42 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The Lottery is not the only path to a championship.   In fact, I don't think it's been proven that having a lottery player means anything being that just about every NBA team has one. 

Moreover, since Lebron was on Kyrie's team and Duncan was on Robinson's team...   Hmm... that sounds more like 2. 

The draft is fool's gold.   Period.  It's not the WAY to the title.   The way to the title is by team building and having a plan.   Lottery players will come.  They always do.  It takes extraordinary circumstances to tank and win a title.   Extraordinary... and it takes transcendent generational players too. 

So let's look into the future.   We will be bad, we will get high draft picks for the next few years.. and we may be lucky to get back to mediocrity... and the tankers here will say.. Schlenk is just another bad GM who didn't know how to draft.  or We knew that this could happen or some BS that denies the fact that tanking doesn't win championships. 

Duncan as a rookie 100% did not lead that team. So Schlenk finds John Collins at 19 and you are assuming he doesn't know how to draft he is 1for 1 in my book? Do you really think that Ressler hired Schlenk without a plan? You REALLY think Schlenk came to his interview here and said hire me I have no idea how to help you guys win in the future. Schlenk 100% has a plan and it involves not making the guy playing the 5th most minutes by the end of the season (Dwight Howard) a fourth of your cap. So yeah you may not agree with his plan but he has one that the hawks organization liked enough to hire.

Edited March 10, 2018 by davis171

[High5]

40 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The Lottery is not the only path to a championship.   In fact, I don't think it's been proven that having a lottery player means anything being that just about every NBA team has one. 

Moreover, since Lebron was on Kyrie's team and Duncan was on Robinson's team...   Hmm... that sounds more like 2. 

The draft is fool's gold.   Period.  It's not the WAY to the title.   The way to the title is by team building and having a plan.   Lottery players will come.  They always do.  It takes extraordinary circumstances to tank and win a title.   Extraordinary... and it takes transcendent generational players too. 

So let's look into the future.   We will be bad, we will get high draft picks for the next few years.. and we may be lucky to get back to mediocrity... and the tankers here will say.. Schlenk is just another bad GM who didn't know how to draft.  or We knew that this could happen or some BS that denies the fact that tanking doesn't win championships. 

Alright, you continue to misread, misunderstand, misrepresent, or straight up ignore everything as usual so I'm going to bow out now. I tried. 

[JTB]

I could care less if you’re a pro tanker or hate tanker. I’m personally in the middle with all of this. We got a new gm that made a decision and that’s just what it is to me!

 

Attention Pro tankers:

theres no need to be overly hyped about tanking because Schlenk LITERALLY hasn’t really done anything yet as far as long term roster decisions! His first move with Collins turned out ok ....but nothing to be overly hyped about.

Attention Tank Haters:

no reason to hate Schlenk or his decision to tank...yet! He LITERALLY has not done any real long term roster moves! We don’t truly know how smart or dumb Schlenk is at this point until the off season starts and we can then judge his moves as a gm!

 

Personally the way I see it :

all Schlenk has done is decided to start fresh. Now I’m not pro tank cause there’s clear evidence if you tank you could be there long term in the lottery however I’m not anti tank either cause I understand being a middle road team isn’t a championship route which is also proven  and that’s what we were for 10 straight years making the playoffs. Those teams were not one or two pieces away but more like 2 star players away from true championship contention. 

[DBac]

Schlenk could've appeased both sides by signing Jamychal Green in FA and having him lead us to a #1 pick like he's doing in Memphis.