The Tank Thread

[Spud2nique]

Wait..is this the tank thread. ? I thought ? why it is alerting me. Notify off..

[thecampster]

In that span of 42 years...the Cubbies won 90 or more games 4 times.  Sorry, this gets funnier the more I research.

 

Hey AHF...wondering if you could define "tanking" for me....exactly what you call it. While you're at it...define "rebuilding by tanking".

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Haha.  It's supposedly about using a vibrater.

U lost ur vibrator?

[kg01]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

U lost ur vibrator?

Wait, is it "-or" or "-er".

Quick, read the label on yours.

Haha, this is the greatest thread ever.

[Spud2nique]

11 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Wait, is it "-or" or "-er".

Quick, read the label on yours.

Haha, this is the greatest thread ever.

Ur scaring me..wasnt

it around this time last year when...

[Spud2nique]

GO NATIONAL LEAGUE...comon..Segura killed it. Ozzie got the 3rd out. That’s something. He needs a hit..LETS GO!!! We need this for the World Series Homecourt.

[Macknsweetjones]

The braves f***ing tanked ...their on pace to make the playoffs 

[AHF]

59 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Between the 1973 and 2014 seasons (42 years) the Cubs finished .500 or worse 32 times.  Using a team who has only had 10 winning seasons in a span of 42 years as a team who purposely tanked really hurts your credibility (and strengthens KB21's).

You realize they openly admitted tanking right?  You realize that after doing it they accrued enough young talent to win a championship unlike their losing efforts for the prior 42 years right?  

They sold off their players and deliberately lost games to improve their draft position in a systemic plan to move them from loser status to championship talent status.  This was led by one of the smartest young GMs in baseball who had already led the Red Sox to a ring.

But please continue acting like they didn’t lose on purpose as part of a plan to garner young talent and had no plan and simply stumbled their way by happenstance to a ring.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

In that span of 42 years...the Cubbies won 90 or more games 4 times.  Sorry, this gets funnier the more I research.

 

Hey AHF...wondering if you could define "tanking" for me....exactly what you call it. While you're at it...define "rebuilding by tanking".

Tanking is deliberately losing games to improve draft status.

Tanking is not whatever I feel like it is to suit my argument at the moment.

[Spud2nique]

26 minutes ago, Macknsweetjones said:

The braves f***ing tanked ...their on pace to make the playoffs 

? 

[thecampster]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

You realize they openly admitted tanking right?  You realize that after doing it they accrued enough young talent to win a championship unlike their losing efforts for the prior 42 years right?  

They sold off their players and deliberately lost games to improve their draft position in a systemic plan to move them from loser status to championship talent status.  This was led by one of the smartest young GMs in baseball who had already led the Red Sox to a ring.

But please continue acting like they didn’t lose on purpose as part of a plan to garner young talent and had no plan and simply stumbled their way by happenstance to a ring.

And gave Jon Lester $155 million reasons to help them get better....and got David Ross and a slew of other vets...but you know...facts and details.

[thecampster]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

You realize they openly admitted tanking right?  You realize that after doing it they accrued enough young talent to win a championship unlike their losing efforts for the prior 42 years right?  

They sold off their players and deliberately lost games to improve their draft position in a systemic plan to move them from loser status to championship talent status.  This was led by one of the smartest young GMs in baseball who had already led the Red Sox to a ring.

But please continue acting like they didn’t lose on purpose as part of a plan to garner young talent and had no plan and simply stumbled their way by happenstance to a ring.

OMFG...I give you their record over 42 years and you still want to say "but they tanked".  They always sucked...dude you love to ignore facts to suit your agenda.  Only 4 seasons of 90+ wins in 42 years.  They started tanking when the Vietnam War ended.

only 4 good seasons in 42 years is exactly what KB21 is talking about.  They fixed it by committing to spending the money and traded away youth for good vets.

That you are even trying to justify tanking in the NBA for high draft picks to trading away vets in MLB to rebuild your farm system just shows how weak your argument is. You had to go "outside the NBA" to make your point.

 

Let me simplify this argument.  You cannot draft your way to a championship. You can trade away your vets and this will lead to losing but it only works if you are doing so to acquire assets that you can turn into other good vets.  Rookies and 2nd year players don't win championships.  The articles I've already posted show that players don't reach their prime until their mid 20's.  Players under 25 cannot be your core or base. You need stars between the ages of 25-35 to be a contender.  This is what KB is saying.  The only way to get those players through the draft is to keep them for 5 years +.  Math doesn't lie.

[Lurker]

Hold on a second, so now we’re calling basically the exact same thing as what “tanking” is at the NBA level, not resigning your good veterans, trading the veterans that aren’t young, and not signing quality players to your baseball team to make it look like you’re trying to be respectable, not tanking? That’s next level insanity.

If you think the 2011-2013 Astros were an attempt at looking respectable…I have swampland. And I don’t care if you think the minor leagues helped kids learn how to win, the minor league to major league level is still an adjustment. None of the Astros core played together in the minors. The only core in which I know of in which most of it played together outside of Cain (2014 and 2015 Royals), they actually went back into the tank quickly, as we all know if we follow baseball!

I just had to call this out. That is crazy. The only thing that I can agree with is them actually having a true developmental league is beneficial, but I politely disagree that every young basketball player needs more development outside of the point guard spot.

In case you may wonder, I’m done being a weenie, for now but I’m still not going to be very active in here. If I want to make a point, I’ll post but if not, I’ll actually “lurk” as my surname originally suggested.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Hold on a second, so now we’re calling basically the exact same thing as what “tanking” is at the NBA level, not resigning your good veterans, trading the veterans that aren’t young, and not signing quality players to your baseball team to make it look like you’re trying to be respectable, not tanking? That’s next level insanity.

If you think the 2011-2013 Astros were an attempt at looking respectable…I have swampland. And I don’t care if you think the minor leagues helped kids learn how to win, the minor league to major league level is still an adjustment. None of the Astros core played together in the minors. The only core in which I know of in which most of it played together outside of Cain (2014 and 2015 Royals), they actually went back into the tank quickly, as we all know if we follow baseball!

I just had to call this out. That is crazy. The only thing that I can agree with is them actually having a true developmental league is beneficial, but I politely disagree that every young basketball player needs more development outside of the point guard spot.

In case you may wonder, I’m done being a weenie, for now but I’m still not going to be very active in here. If I want to make a point, I’ll post but if not, I’ll actually “lurk” as my surname originally suggested.

Baseball rebuild - Trade aging expensive stars for young prospects for your farm team after your team is already out of the playoff race. Let those players stay in the minors for 2-3 years and develop. Call them up to the big club. You still own their rights for an extended period of time. Sign veterans to go with them.  This is what the Astros did. They weren't trying to "Get a high draft pick", they were restocking their farm system with already drafted players on other minor league rosters via trade. But every year, the Astros signed new players to take those spots on the big club roster. They recycled and traded vets for prospects.

 

Basketball tanking - Trade aging expensive stars for players on bad contracts with little value in exchange for draft picks.  Draft those young players who must play on your roster if signed. You own their rights for 4 years. Wait for the bad contracts to become expirings and try to trade those at the deadline to other teams trying to rebuild or if those players redeem themselves, to contenders for low first round picks. Wait 4 years for 4 years of high drafting. Before your rookies get max deals and if they've developed into star level talent, try to sign free agent stars to pair with them. If they don't develop, you won't be able to sign stars to play with them, restart the treadmill.

 

It is very different in that a Baseball rebuild usually centers on restocking a farm system and can be broken out of at any time by taking on salary at the trade deadline from failed teams. The acquired players are draft picks, but players already drafted and who are stashed in the minors. You don't even have to lose big to do this. Because a major league roster is comprised of 8 starters, 5 starting pitchers and 1 closer (14 impact players), it isn't worth it to tank for an entire year to get 1 higher 1st round draft choice. The pool of players is much larger to pick from and scouting becomes better than draft position. The variance between 1st and 30th picks are much closer than in the NBA.

In Basketball, you have 5 impact players and a much bigger variance between the skill level between the 1st and 30th pick. Also, age is a factor because basketball players come out all through the 4 year college window. The higher the draft, typically the younger you draft. So high level players are less likely to contribute right away but have higher potential. A top 5 pick is very attractive, but player movement in the NBA is such that most high level picks explore free agency after their rookie contract expires and before they reach their prime.

Let's use Lebron as the example. Lebron was drafted by Cleveland and spent his first 7 years there. But then he got frustrated and went title shopping. He went to Miami as a free agent to get his ring.  If Lebron hadn't had OHIO ties, he wouldn't have gone back to Cleveland and they wouldn't have gotten their ring...12 years after they drafted him.  Remember, Lebron's Cleveland championship wasn't due to their tank or to him being drafted by them, it was due to Lebron negotiating some level of control in personnel decisions to sign as a free agent and Cleveland spending the money to bring in a butt load of free agents and going into the Luxury Tax. Cleveland bought a championship, they didn't draft one.

Yes GS drafted Curry, Thompson and Green (not a lottery pick) but in the 2 years before winning the championship, they also traded for or signed Iquodala, Murphy, Crawford, Brooks, Blake, Livingston, Rush, Barbosa.  They traded/signed their way to a championship....which they wouldn't have been able to do except for the dumb luck that Curry was injury prone his first 3 years and was resigned on the cheap.

The same is true for the Astros and Cubs. They made savvy trades to build their farm system and but they weren't able to finish their teams without going out and spending money on free agents and trading away some of those farm systems.  Tanking doesn't win. In the end, every team figures out that you have to spend money to make money. You have to sign Jon Lester, acquire Iggy/Durant, Bosh/Lebron. You realize getting a Lebron isn't enough and you have to add a JR.Smith on the cheap, trade for a Kevin Love. Tanking doesn't win....stepping up your player acquisition game does.

[thecampster]

You see the difference between Basketball and Baseball is that your prospects develop in the minors where they can dominate and win. In Basketball, they are fed to the likes of Lebron, Durant and Westbrook every night and get accustomed to losing. After 4 years of that, they move on to a team that can win.

[REHawksFan]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

Baseball rebuild - Trade aging expensive stars for young prospects for your farm team after your team is already out of the playoff race. Let those players stay in the minors for 2-3 years and develop. Call them up to the big club. You still own their rights for an extended period of time. Sign veterans to go with them.  This is what the Astros did. They weren't trying to "Get a high draft pick", they were restocking their farm system with already drafted players on other minor league rosters via trade. But every year, the Astros signed new players to take those spots on the big club roster. They recycled and traded vets for prospects.

 

Basketball tanking - Trade aging expensive stars for players on bad contracts with little value in exchange for draft picks.  Draft those young players who must play on your roster if signed. You own their rights for 4 years. Wait for the bad contracts to become expirings and try to trade those at the deadline to other teams trying to rebuild or if those players redeem themselves, to contenders for low first round picks. Wait 4 years for 4 years of high drafting. Before your rookies get max deals and if they've developed into star level talent, try to sign free agent stars to pair with them. If they don't develop, you won't be able to sign stars to play with them, restart the treadmill.

 

It is very different in that a Baseball rebuild usually centers on restocking a farm system and can be broken out of at any time by taking on salary at the trade deadline from failed teams. The acquired players are draft picks, but players already drafted and who are stashed in the minors. You don't even have to lose big to do this. Because a major league roster is comprised of 8 starters, 5 starting pitchers and 1 closer (14 impact players), it isn't worth it to tank for an entire year to get 1 higher 1st round draft choice. The pool of players is much larger to pick from and scouting becomes better than draft position. The variance between 1st and 30th picks are much closer than in the NBA.

In Basketball, you have 5 impact players and a much bigger variance between the skill level between the 1st and 30th pick. Also, age is a factor because basketball players come out all through the 4 year college window. The higher the draft, typically the younger you draft. So high level players are less likely to contribute right away but have higher potential. A top 5 pick is very attractive, but player movement in the NBA is such that most high level picks explore free agency after their rookie contract expires and before they reach their prime.

Let's use Lebron as the example. Lebron was drafted by Cleveland and spent his first 7 years there. But then he got frustrated and went title shopping. He went to Miami as a free agent to get his ring.  If Lebron hadn't had OHIO ties, he wouldn't have gone back to Cleveland and they wouldn't have gotten their ring...12 years after they drafted him.  Remember, Lebron's Cleveland championship wasn't due to their tank or to him being drafted by them, it was due to Lebron negotiating some level of control in personnel decisions to sign as a free agent and Cleveland spending the money to bring in a butt load of free agents and going into the Luxury Tax. Cleveland bought a championship, they didn't draft one.

Yes GS drafted Curry, Thompson and Green (not a lottery pick) but in the 2 years before winning the championship, they also traded for or signed Iquodala, Murphy, Crawford, Brooks, Blake, Livingston, Rush, Barbosa.  They traded/signed their way to a championship....which they wouldn't have been able to do except for the dumb luck that Curry was injury prone his first 3 years and was resigned on the cheap.

The same is true for the Astros and Cubs. They made savvy trades to build their farm system and but they weren't able to finish their teams without going out and spending money on free agents and trading away some of those farm systems.  Tanking doesn't win. In the end, every team figures out that you have to spend money to make money. You have to sign Jon Lester, acquire Iggy/Durant, Bosh/Lebron. You realize getting a Lebron isn't enough and you have to add a JR.Smith on the cheap, trade for a Kevin Love. Tanking doesn't win....stepping up your player acquisition game does.

Let me get this straight.  You don't draft a championship? So the Cavs title had nothing to do with Kyrie and his 20 pts / gm or Love (who they only acquired because they had drafted Wiggins No. 1) and his 16 pts / 10 rb per game?  It was solely a product of LeBron (whom they also drafted but we'll ignore that) and the signing of several role players?  Got it.

And what about GSW?  Their title was obviously not a product of their draft right?  I mean, why would anyone think that drafting their 4 best players on their first title team (Steph, Klay, Draymond, Barnes) would be significant?  That title wasn't due to their 67 pts / 21 boards per game, right?  Had nothing to do with it.  It was all a product of signing eight role players.  Sure, I get it.  You don't draft a title.  The real key to winning a title is signing a bunch of middling bench players.  We'll just ignore the core of that team since they were drafted and you obviously don't win titles through the draft.  

Your logic is impeccable.  I think you almost have me convinced.  

[REHawksFan]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

 

Let's use Lebron as the example. Lebron was drafted by Cleveland and spent his first 7 years there. But then he got frustrated and went title shopping. He went to Miami as a free agent to get his ring.  If Lebron hadn't had OHIO ties, he wouldn't have gone back to Cleveland and they wouldn't have gotten their ring...12 years after they drafted him.  Remember, Lebron's Cleveland championship wasn't due to their tank or to him being drafted by them, it was due to Lebron negotiating some level of control in personnel decisions to sign as a free agent and Cleveland spending the money to bring in a butt load of free agents and going into the Luxury Tax. Cleveland bought a championship, they didn't draft one.

Yes GS drafted Curry, Thompson and Green (not a lottery pick) but in the 2 years before winning the championship, they also traded for or signed Iquodala, Murphy, Crawford, Brooks, Blake, Livingston, Rush, Barbosa.  They traded/signed their way to a championship....which they wouldn't have been able to do except for the dumb luck that Curry was injury prone his first 3 years and was resigned on the cheap.

 

And another thing, if you go back and look at the title teams over the last 10, 20, 30 years, they ALL have at least one elite player that was drafted by that team.  Maybe not drafted No. 1 overall, but drafted nonetheless.  So it's utterly ridiculous to try to claim that the draft isn't important when building a championship roster.

GSW - Steph, Klay, Draymond, Barnes

CAVS - Kyrie, Love (via trade for the No. 1 Wiggins)

SAS - Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawhi (I think he was a draft night trade with Pacers if I remember correctly)

Heat - Dwade

Mavs - Dirk

Lakers - Kobe

Celtics - Rondo, Pierce

And the list goes on and on....

[JayBirdHawk]

8 hours ago, Macknsweetjones said:

The braves f***ing tanked ...their on pace to make the playoffs 

It's early, but POTD.

[EazyRoc]

I don’t even know if this is a REAL tank. We aren’t dumping guys like Dennis and Baze for pennies to bottom out the roster. We wouldn’t have added a solid vet like Dedmon AND kept him. We aren’t trying to win a lot of games, but we definitely aren’t purposely bottoming out the roster to be the worst team in the league.

[KB21]

1 hour ago, EazyRoc said:

I don’t even know if this is a REAL tank. We aren’t dumping guys like Dennis and Baze for pennies to bottom out the roster. We wouldn’t have added a solid vet like Dedmon AND kept him. We aren’t trying to win a lot of games, but we definitely aren’t purposely bottoming out the roster to be the worst team in the league.

They absolutely are trying to purposely bottom out the roster.  They are actively trying to trade Dennis, and they tried to include Kent Bazemore in two separate trades to move down without getting an asset in return.  They basically told Dallas that if they took Kent Bazemore's contract, they would move down from 3 to 5 without anything else added other than Matthews's expiring deal, which they would have bought out.  

This is very clearly a 76ers style tank, right down to hiring an unqualified head coach (Philly actually hired a qualified coach).