Nobody believed?

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, EazyRoc said:

Yea with a ton of other guys who shouldn’t have ever made an NBA roster. You’re also hyping up everyone other than Joe and Horford.  That 2014 had an array of very good, but not great players. They may not be as flashy as Josh Smith, but skill-for-skill much more talented than the 2008 Hawks. 

More BS.  The 2014 had a better culture.   They were closer to the coach, they were closer as a team.   They had less talent.   They overachieved.   

Skill for Skill... much less talented.   But they won more. 

[EazyRoc]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

More BS.  The 2014 had a better culture.   They were closer to the coach, they were closer as a team.   They had less talent.   They overachieved.   

Skill for Skill... much less talented.   But they won more. 

Jeff Teague > 2008 Mike Bibby 

Kyle Korver < Joe Johnson

DMC > Marvin

Milsap > Smith

Vet Horford > Young Horford

2014 Bench > 2008 Bench 

How is that BS ? The 2014 Hawks had better players.

 

[noble]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

I've never ignored that point.  See my sig.  Here's what all of you want to ignore though.  Mathematically, you have a 0% chance of winning a championship by tanking.

And how many times have we been to a Finals prior to this "tanking"? Making the playoffs with zero to show for it has worked so well to this point. 

And if we are going to talk culture, even with a 60 win team, what was so bad about our culture that no high value FA wanted to join that team? We could easily say we haven't had that type of culture you want since Nique was traded. Know what Nique was? A superstar, a generational talent. Talent can and does help change a culture. Outside of Run DMC, the Warriors were never a destination, until they got talent.

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, EazyRoc said:

Jeff Teague> 2009 Mike Bibby 

Kyle Korver < <<Joe Johnson

DMC<Marvin

Milsap = Smith

Vet Horford =Young Horford

2014 Bench ? 2009 Bench 

How is that BS ? The 2014 Hawks had better players.

 

I meant 2009-2010 Hawks 

Here's the thing.  2009-2010 Hawks had Crawford off the bench putting up 18 ppg.   It also had Zaza and Jeff Teague.

The 2014-2015 Hawks had:  Dennis, Thabo, and Kent.   Sad thing is during the playoffs, Thabo was not there and Dennis was a net Negative.   Nobody there matched the production of Crawford.  Hell, you take the whole bench and they don't match the production of Crawford.   More talent!

[EazyRoc]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I meant 2009-2010 Hawks 

Here's the thing.  2009-2010 Hawks had Crawford off the bench putting up 18 ppg.   It also had Zaza and Jeff Teague.

The 2014-2015 Hawks had:  Dennis, Thabo, and Kent.   Sad thing is during the playoffs, Thabo was not there and Dennis was a net Negative.   Nobody there matched the production of Crawford.  Hell, you take the whole bench and they don't match the production of Crawford.   More talent!

Oh ok. 3 or 4 responses in you decide to move the goalposts.

 

Doesn’t change much.

 

Jeff Teague >> 2009 Mike Bibby

Kyle Korver << Joe Johnson 

DMC > Marvin

Milsap > Smith

Vet Horford > Young Horford.

Edge to the 2009 Bench.

But the 2014 roster had the better basketball players.

[Diesel]

On 7/6/2018 at 8:15 AM, EazyRoc said:

Oh ok. 3 or 4 responses in you decide to move the goalposts.

 

Doesn’t change much.

 

Jeff Teague >> 2009 Mike Bibby-  I like Jeff as much as the Next Guy but 2014 Jeff even though an allstar was not that much better than Bibby. 

Kyle Korver << Joe Johnson 

DMC > Marvin - If you're talking talent.. Marvin was more talented than DMC.  That's why he was drafted #2 overall.  That's why his contracts were bigger.  DMC is a system guy and he proved that when he went to Toronto.

Milsap > Smith - Again, if you're talking Talent, Josh Smith is one of the most talented 2 Way players that this team has ever seen.   Sap was also.  That's why I have it as a Wash. Moreover, 2009 Josh Smith hadn't fallen in love with the three point shot.   So this guy was hitting 51% FG% putting down 16, 9, 4... to Sap's Lesser numbers.   I still call it a wash though but 2009 Smoove is definitely better statistically and I say more talented.  

Vet Horford > Young Horford. -Young Horford was everything that Vet Horford was with the exception that Young Horford hadn't torn his peck so he was more fearless.   As talent goes however, It's a wash.   Horford's Game hasn't changed much since he left Florida.

Edge to the 2009 Bench.

But the 2014 roster had the better basketball players. - What does this mean??  Are you trying to say that there was a better CULTURE?

If SO I AGREE!!

 

[AHF]

I love watching Diesel make the case for Marvin, lol.  He was smart enough to put his pro-Marvin comments inside another quote to make them harder for anyone to attribute to him.  

[EazyRoc]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

 

2009 Mike Bibby was a spot up shooter and terrible defender. Teague was MUCH better.

DMC was the better shooter and better defender. 

In regards to Josh and Paul, they were both All Defensive. They were both good passers. Paul was the better shooter and wasn’t a complete liability at the FT line.

 

Horford was better by virtue of experience. He was also statistically better. 

Better players = More Wins = Better Culture

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

 

OMG!!  Did Diesel just defend Marvin?

[parfait]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 7:34 PM, KB21 said:

If you truly think there is no such thing as a losing and winning culture, then you have never played sports before.

Like I said earlier, if getting high picks is all you needed to do, then why has Sacramento been in 12 straight lotteries?  Why has half of this year's lottery been drafting in the lottery for 4 plus years?

It's amazing that San Antonio has been good for so long without tanking.

If a team, like Sacramento, keeps picking in the high lottery, they're simply not hitting on enough of those picks. The successful franchises hit on at least a majority of their 1st round picks. The Sacratomatoes of the world hit on a minority of them, and thus stay embedded in the Top 10 of the draft.

If Travis Schlenk makes approximately 8 first round selections from 2017 through 2020, and secures at least above average players with at least 5 of those selections, while maintaining salary cap flexibility, then we're in business.

It really can be that simple.

[thecampster]

On 7/5/2018 at 9:34 AM, KB21 said:

Sacramento has drafted elite talent (DeMarcus Cousins), and they have drafted good talent (Tyreke Evans, Buddy Hield, De'Aaron Fox, Willie Cauley Stein), and they have drafted raw talent (Ben McLemore), but despite this, they have continued their losing ways.  Why? 

It's because your culture is the most important aspect.  Culture is why the Spurs have been able to maintain their greatness over a long period of time.  Sacramento's culture has lead to poor player development.  Their culture has lead to poor player attitudes.  

Jayson Tatum would not have been the same player had he been drafted by Phoenix this past year as he was in Boston.  The difference is the culture.  Phoenix has a culture of losing.  Boston has a culture of winning because they did not accept losing as an avenue to get talent.  

Uhm...Boston tanked before. 05-06 and 06-07 were tank years for Boston (on purpose and everything).

Nothing like starting the great Raef LaFrentz 63 games.  http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/40780/when-tankers-tell-the-truth

[thecampster]

That said, They had 2 years of that nonsense and said "F this" and "acquired" Garnett and Allen.  IE...they figured out real quick that tanking isn't all its cracked up to be.  IE...culture of winning...the fans wouldn't stand for it.

[AHF]

6 hours ago, thecampster said:

That said, They had 2 years of that nonsense and said "F this" and "acquired" Garnett and Allen.  IE...they figured out real quick that tanking isn't all its cracked up to be.  IE...culture of winning...the fans wouldn't stand for it.

So they took the lottery picks and young players they build during the tankign and flipped them for a championship roster that they never would have been able to acquire had they simply kept up with their early playoff exits?  Sounds like a successful process to me.

[thecampster]

14 hours ago, AHF said:

So they took the lottery picks and young players they build during the tankign and flipped them for a championship roster that they never would have been able to acquire had they simply kept up with their early playoff exits?  Sounds like a successful process to me.

Actually they traded a slew of players for essentially Theo Ratliff and then in 2007 traded 2 players and 2 picks for Ray Allen. What they did was get themselves in a terrible cap situation in 2005 and instead of tanking for 5 years (see KB21 for a thorough explanation on why this is stupid), they were cap dumping for only 2 years and created gagillions of cap space for Garnett, Allen.

 

If we were the Celtics and we aren't, we would have used our picks this year to flip Plumlee, Schröder, Baze and our cap space for $60 million in free agent assets. We would then would all pile on as fans as if those rental stars were ours all along, win for 3-4 years and then rebuild again in 2024. 

That's a far cry from drafting Collins, Dorsey, lose a lot, lose your coach, draft 3 rookies who will all be good some day, lose a lot but damn we got a pretty arena....draft a few more rookies next year...but lose Baze in free agency, trade Dennis for cap space.....lose just a bit less....draft some more rooks....pick up year 4 on our first crop of rooks.....get a bit better....pray no one gets injured, match Collins RFA max contract some jackwagon team offered it....cry because someone gets injured....draft some rooks...lose one of our 2nd batch of rooks to free agency because we can't afford to resign all 3....put up posters and signs because we made the playoffs again...get comfortable as the 4th-6th seed for 3-5 years.  Of course that could all be wrong. We could get lucky and the rooks outplay their contracts and a big time vet wants to come here on a cheap contract to ring chase....ya....that could happen.

[AHF]

The Celtics traded the #5 pick for Allen and traded for KG with a slew of picks and young players on rookie deals.  They don’t have those assets and can’t make those deals if they keep losing in the first round of the playoffs.

[thecampster]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

The Celtics traded the #5 pick for Allen and traded for KG with a slew of picks and young players on rookie deals.  They don’t have those assets and can’t make those deals if they keep losing in the first round of the playoffs.

Search engines are really cool things. You can find all sorts of great information.  They did not trade Allen for 5 and even if that's all they did, they wouldn't have been able to do so if they hadn't cleared the cap room for a fast rebuild.  To try and make this sound like they built through the draft is assanine.  They traded all their future assets for 4 players.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Allen#Boston_Celtics_(2007–2012)

 

On June 28, 2007, the Sonics traded Allen and

 Glen Davis, the 35th overall pick in the 2007 NBA draft, to the Celtics in exchange for Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak, and the fifth overall pick, Jeff Green. Shortly after acquiring Allen, the Celtics acquired Minnesota Timberwolves forward Kevin Garnett to play alongside Allen and Paul Pierce.^[17] Upon joining the Celtics, Allen changed his jersey to number 20 because Paul Pierce already had number 34 in Boston.^[18] 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

Search engines are really cool things. You can find all sorts of great information.  They did not trade Allen for 5 and even if that's all they did, they wouldn't have been able to do so if they hadn't cleared the cap room for a fast rebuild.  To try and make this sound like they built through the draft is assanine.  They traded all their future assets for 4 players.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Allen#Boston_Celtics_(2007–2012)

 

 

 

Did you read the words "fifth overall pick" in what you posted?  Seattle used the 5th overall pick they got for Allen to draft Jeff Green.  That trade doesn't happen without that pick -- it was the heart of what Seattle was after.

One year later and both Wally Sczerbiak and Delonte West were no longer on Seattle's roster.  I.e., they wanted the #5 pick and took back Wally and West to match salaries.

Please don't pretend like you don't understand this trade was about the #5 pick.

[JayBirdHawk]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

Did you read the words "fifth overall pick" in what you posted?  Seattle used the 5th overall pick they got for Allen to draft Jeff Green.  That trade doesn't happen without that pick -- it was the heart of what Seattle was after.

One year later and both Wally Sczerbiak and Delonte West were no longer on Seattle's roster.  I.e., they wanted the #5 pick and took back Wally and West to match salaries.

Please don't pretend like you don't understand this trade was about the #5 pick.

I thought i was seeing something different than...5th pick for Ray Allen.

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I thought i was seeing something different than...5th pick for Ray Allen.

Kinda weird to pretend it wasn't all about that 5th pick.  That trade's core was clearly "fifth pick and filler for Ray Allen."  

Wally $12.75M + West $2M + 5th Pick $3M = ~$17.75M

Ray Allen $16M + G.Davis $0.5M = ~$16.5M