OKC and Atlanta in talks - Dennis and Muscala for Melo - Deal Done (Not Fake News)

[sturt]

I'm only persisting at this point for the larger point...

We DIDN'T KNOW what we DIDN'T KNOW, and call me judgmental, but I think people are better when they can acknowledge their assumptions, rather than refusing to acknowledge the assumption.

Just as a general premise, talking Hawks, talking politics, talking anything.

[JayBirdHawk]

What we do/did know....

Two teams had interest in Melo...Houston and Miami. Melo's interest was also mutual. Their interest was only if he was bought out, they weren't trading for him. Him and his agent were granted permission to speak to teams about a trade from OKC and to secure his release so he could sign with the team of his choice.  In order for a trade, OKC requires Melo to waive his NTC.

Melo isn't waving his NTC to get stuck on a team without his buyout, he'd just keep his NTC and rot in OKC.

No assumption needed. 

July 10th

Quote

The Thunder are working on trade scenarios where Anthony, 34, would be moved as an expiring contract and be waived, becoming a free agent once his $27.9 million 2017-18 salary clears waivers. Oklahoma City needs Anthony's permission to waive his no-trade clause,

Everything else is just muddying the waters.

[AHF]

This is like two people watching a coworker say "I'm going to buy some lunch with my last $10," enter a Five Guys with a $10 bill and then exit with a hamburger and regular coke and a few cents of change. 

One person says "he just bought a burger and coke and now can't pay for a cup of coffee this afternoon."  And the other says "well, you are assuming that he bought it but you don't know for sure what happened so now let's explore what he can buy with that $10 if he didn't buy it."

The second person is technically right that there is an assumption involved but the inference that supports the assumption is so strong and the assumption so probable that the first person is left scratching her head.  This exercise is like contemplating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[JayBirdHawk]

More stuff...

 

This is interesting...

Quote

The player also receives any guaranteed salary remaining on their contract. A team can claim a player on waivers with either cap space or a trade exception. There are currently no teams with the ability to claim Carmelo Anthony’s $27,928,140 contract so he will clear waivers with no problem.

A simple waive is when there is no adjustment to a player’s guaranteed compensation. However, when a player agrees to reduce a portion of their guaranteed compensation, that is referred to as a “buyout” because the player is agreeing to take less money in order to receive the ability to sign with another team. We know that Anthony will be waived, but we do not know if he is going to accept a buyout. And if Atlanta does not secure a buyout from Carmelo, they completely screwed up.

 

[sturt]

@AHF that's an overstatement.

If Woj hadn't written what he wrote how he wrote it, I'll grant you, you're right to characterize it as you did.

But he did write it as he wrote it.

We're just not going to agree.

[sturt]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Their interest was only if he was bought out, they weren't trading for him.

Btw... I can find nothing that confirms this, can you? Maybe I missed it. From all I can tell, it's just as likely that OKC wasn't interested in what pieces HOU or MIA might have to offer.

And in fact...

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Melo isn't waving his NTC to get stuck on a team without his buyout, he'd just keep his NTC and rot in OKC.

... that statement is especially arguable.

Since he granted the NTC without any apparent exception, he mainly just knew he wanted nothing to do with OKC any more. Even going to a franchise like ATL, he may have reasoned, he at least would be in a position to get starter minutes where he could regain some of his former regard.

[JayBirdHawk]

12 minutes ago, sturt said:

Btw... I can find nothing that confirms this, can you? Maybe I missed it. From all I can tell, it's just as likely that OKC wasn't interested in what pieces HOU or MIA might have to offer.

And in fact...

... that statement is especially arguable.

Since he granted the NTC without any apparent exception, he mainly just knew he wanted nothing to do with OKC any more. Even going to a franchise like ATL, he may have reasoned, he at least would be in a position to get starter minutes where he could regain some of his former regard.

C'mon man, make Google your friend. Plug in 'Houston interested in Melo if bought out'

Additionally, take a look at Houston's and Miami's capsheet and you'll see why a trade wasn't feasible knowing the cap savings OKC was looking for.

He didn't grant the NTC without any apparent exception. Again, this is from July 10th....

Quote

 

The Thunder are working on trade scenarios where Anthony, 34, would be moved as an expiring contract and be waived, becoming a free agent once his $27.9 million 2017-18 salary clears waivers. Oklahoma City needs Anthony's permission to waive his no-trade clause

 

Keep digging this grave, I'm hopping out.

[High5]

We all get stuck down those rabbit holes occasionally. Just gotta take the L and move on. 

[Spud2nique]

10 hours ago, AHF said:

lol

Again, not looking at the actual players just that there will be two classes combined into one draft.

I know that was what happened to me actually...minus the leering part. I didn’t know school was in session and I was shooting hoops oops ? 

[Spud2nique]

7 hours ago, MaceCase said:

It would be pronounced more like Ploom-Ley.

Fat hairy drunk ? big bad teeth type Englishman...

 

PLUMLAAAYYY..

 

Yours is a sober educated English lady. Ploom -ley

[sturt]

31 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

C'mon man, make Google your friend. Plug in 'Houston interested in Melo if bought out'

Additionally, take a look at Houston's and Miami's capsheet and you'll see why a trade wasn't feasible knowing the cap savings OKC was looking for.

Google and I even smooched a bit.

In my best Lee Corso....

Not so fast.

Of course, when you search on those key words, you are getting stories that presume a buyout as a premise. It does make sense that few would think a trade would be an option at all. In the main, it was accepted that it would be a straight buyout and stretch.

But it did turn out to be a trade after all, didn't it.

And that cap savings OKC was looking for?

They took back how much? $20.5m?

How much does Anderson in HOU make?

Oh, but I suppose HOU loves them some Ryan Anderson too much to think about that deal, right?

Circling back to the original point... we don't know what we don't know. And we don't know what all was discussed by who and when. What we do know is that a trade partner was found eventually, and what we do know is that the salaries OKC took back amounted to the same as what Ryan Anderson will make this season.

48 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

He didn't grant the NTC without any apparent exception. Again, this is from July 10th....

Quote

 

The Thunder are working on trade scenarios where Anthony, 34, would be moved as an expiring contract and be waived, becoming a free agent once his $27.9 million 2017-18 salary clears waivers. Oklahoma City needs Anthony's permission to waive his no-trade clause

 

And so, which teams were the apparent exceptions then?

Your quote only says what OKC wanted to accomplish. You get that, right?

And right at that point where you cut it off, Woj reported the key part... that he had, past tense, waived the NTC.

 

You keep trying to establish this as-if there is your explanation is concrete. It's just not.

[MaceCase]

6 hours ago, sturt said:

Not to be argumentative, but if I'm GM, I'm always interested to make sure I don't leave anything of value on the table. Why do I stop at meeting one objective if I can meet multiple ones? I don't see the point in rushing when there is no apparent reason to rush. And Anderson is the player that muddied those waters, and where others would not have been interested, we could be... if the price were right... whether now, or at the beginning of training camp.

I say "no rush." This is July. See how things evolve over the next 2-3 months. You'll be just as able to release Melo in October as you are right now.

That's the salient point.

 

 

If I was to follow that same logic then OKC had no reason to pursue this deal at this juncture either.  The tax bill isn't due until next July.

[AHF]

8 hours ago, sturt said:

Google and I even smooched a bit.

In my best Lee Corso....

Not so fast.

Of course, when you search on those key words, you are getting stories that presume a buyout as a premise. It does make sense that few would think a trade would be an option at all. In the main, it was accepted that it would be a straight buyout and stretch.

But it did turn out to be a trade after all, didn't it.

And that cap savings OKC was looking for?

They took back how much? $20.5m?

How much does Anderson in HOU make?

Oh, but I suppose HOU loves them some Ryan Anderson too much to think about that deal, right?

Circling back to the original point... we don't know what we don't know. And we don't know what all was discussed by who and when. What we do know is that a trade partner was found eventually, and what we do know is that the salaries OKC took back amounted to the same as what Ryan Anderson will make this season.

 

And so, which teams were the apparent exceptions then?

Your quote only says what OKC wanted to accomplish. You get that, right?

And right at that point where you cut it off, Woj reported the key part... that he had, past tense, waived the NTC.

 

You keep trying to establish this as-if there is your explanation is concrete. It's just not.

You know the only reason OKC was allowed to take back as little as they do was because Philly and Atlanta were able to absorb salary and that the tax savings is roughly $30 million less if they somehow reached a deal with Miami or Houston who are both over the cap and would have to match salary under the rules, right?

[sturt]

7 hours ago, MaceCase said:

If I was to follow that same logic then OKC had no reason to pursue this deal at this juncture either.  The tax bill isn't due until next July.

 

If the tax bill were OKC's only concern, yes, absolutely.

Is it their only concern?

 

Seemingly not. Seemingly, they had a strong desire to eliminate a player considered to be somewhat toxic to their roster. And as a contending team, there's some sense that they want to settle their roster as soon as possible, and all the more so given how options to make moves tend to decrease as one gets closer to training camp.

 

And yet, in fact, OKC instead proves the point.... they could have released and stretched Melo the day after he turned down his ETO.

Why didn't they?

Well, evidently Presti thought maybe there was opportunity out there that, at the time, few thought existed.

 

Turned out, he was right to say, "What's the rush?"

 

 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

You know the only reason OKC was allowed to take back as little as they do was because Philly and Atlanta were able to absorb salary and that the tax savings is roughly $30 million less if they somehow reached a deal with Miami or Houston who are both over the cap and would have to match salary under the rules, right?

Yes, the 125% rule applies if it were OKC/HOU.

But as it turns out, OKC has effectively only saved themselves about $2.3m in comparison to a straight-up trade with Anderson and filler going to OKC in exchange for Anthony (... and of course, acknowledging that the deal STILL isn't actually done, and reportedly might not be until this weekend or next week, and so we can't yet know precisely how it all fleshes out). Enough to matter, sure, but relatively chump change in today's NBA ecology, of course.

[kg01]

12 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Ha....you said mudbutt............oh and Melo is getting bought out.   

Woj already reported it and he's getting ALL his money. No debate needed. Just suppositions and such.

This is devolving into a fantastic butterknife fight.  Once Melo is bought out, they're all gonna look around and feel like dodo birds, 'specially @sturt.  Ol' rabble rousing sonofa gun.

[MaceCase]

28 minutes ago, sturt said:

 

If the tax bill were OKC's only concern, yes, absolutely.

Is it their only concern?

 

Seemingly not. Seemingly, they had a strong desire to eliminate a player considered to be somewhat toxic to their roster. And as a contending team, there's some sense that they want to settle their roster as soon as possible, and all the more so given how options to make moves tend to decrease as one gets closer to training camp.

 

And yet, in fact, OKC instead proves the point.... they could have released and stretched Melo the day after he turned down his ETO.

Why didn't they?

Well, evidently Presti thought maybe there was opportunity out there that, at the time, few thought existed.

 

Turned out, he was right to say, "What's the rush?"

 

 

Well there was a rush, given that teams with the ample salary cap space required to absorb Melo were quickly eating that up with re-signings and other cap dumps (Chicago, Brooklyn, and yes, the Hawks).  You suggested no difference between now and October when...well, to your own admission,  the number of locations where Melo could potentially be traded have long since dramatically decreased between lack of cap and desire to have an already settled roster leaving behind the only trade options that OKC themselves found to be unpalatable from the jump. 

I just don't see a situation where the Hawks were/are going to find something that OKC didn't and again, by your own admission, those options decrease as time goes on.  Lack of cap space, desire to have a settled roster heading into the season, and a player whom both the team and the player have zero desire to be on the roster does not lead to a strong negotiation position.  Any team that Melo is also interested in would simply say "however long Atlanta can wait... we can wait longer until they buy him out".

[AHF]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

Yes, the 125% rule applies if it were OKC/HOU.

But as it turns out, OKC has effectively only saved themselves about $2.3m in comparison to a straight-up trade with Anderson and filler going to OKC in exchange for Anthony (... and of course, acknowledging that the deal STILL isn't actually done, and reportedly might not be until this weekend or next week, and so we can't yet know precisely how it all fleshes out). Enough to matter, sure, but relatively chump change in today's NBA ecology, of course.

You are not factoring in luxury tax savings which is the big driver.

[sturt]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

This is devolving into a fantastic butterknife fight.  Once Melo is bought out, they're all gonna look around and feel like dodo birds, 'specially @sturt.  Ol' rabble rousing sonofa gun.

That you continue to try to advance a false premise--that I don't think it's going to end up being a buyout--is either clever rhetoric or yet another example of assumption.

You're totally missing my point, but I'm not smart enough to figure out another way to put it.

[sturt]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

You are not factoring in luxury tax savings which is the big driver.

Point well-taken.

And moreover, there's some smaller savings from Moose ending up in PHI and that other player (too lazy to look it up) with a lesser salary ending up in OKC.

And, moreover again, I'm not factoring in whatever this thing ends up being... right now it's not crystal clear. Maybe there are some other components that will only emerge once the final announcement is made.