Jimmy Butler

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

So if Trae doesn't pan out, Jimmy is gone cause he isn't sticking around if Trae is a bust,  plus Prince and a pick is gone, What then?  Are we better off having had Jimmy for 1 year?  PLUS the loss of assets.

I see you are saying 'get him'  what if he doesn't stay - WHAT THEN?

Jimmy may stay if we max him out, which is probably his main objective.   Trading for him would give us his Bird Rights and enable us to offer him the most lucrative deal.

If we choose to let him walk, we're still in rebuilding mode anyway, but with more money to throw at solid veteran free agents ( even if they're non All-Stars ) to surround Trae with.  

If he doesn't sign because Trae didn't pan out, we would be in deep doo-doo with a far more extensive rebuild that would take much longer anyway.

The upside of Jimmy staying and Trae panning out, is far more appealing than staying pat and hoping Trae + Taurean pan out.   Signing Jimmy to the max would still mean that we could possibly add another player of that caliber . . . like a Demarcus Cousins . . . if he's also chasing the money.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Gray Mule said:

Right now, hanging on to what we have is, in my opinion, the best and safest option.  We have some young, bright, talented players and some old NBA players to guide them.  Almost everyone is here because they want to be here.

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the brush."  Yet, we would trade two in hand for one?  And, knowing, the one doesn't want to be here and will leave at first opportunity.  Nope.

I would trade 2 mockingbirds in my hand, for 1 eagle in the bush.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I know this wasn't directed at me but i don't understand this question.   Name 10 guys you'd build a team around but don't include any of the guys that are better than Jimmy?

Check the edited list that Jaybird posted.

It's too obvious to name guys who are top 10 talents.   But these are also the guys that most of us believe that would never come here.

So go to the next set of guys from 11 - 20, which is where Jimmy falls.

I want people to name players on Jimmy's level . . . players who aren't in the top 10, but may have made an All-NBA team.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Look at the names you're listing for pete's sake!!!!

Right argument, wrong dudes mayne!!

I don't like CJ McCollum but he's the type of guy you should be going to bat for with this line of thinking.

Carmelo, Jefferson... come on.  Wrong names to prove your point because Melo proved his worth and Jefferson is totally marginalized in today's game.

[JayBirdHawk]

32 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I thought the question was: if you are building a team, the way the Hawks are now, who would you take.  I think every gm in the league would choose Embiid, Simmons, Kyrie, Kristaps, or Mitchell over Jimmy if you were just adding one to a team like the Hawks.   If for just age if nothing else.   It's hard to make the case that Jimmy's next 5 years are going to be better than any of those guys.   

Relocated, swirling goal post.

[JayBirdHawk]

12 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Jimmy MAY  stay if we MAX him out.

If that's the only reason he's staying, then he can kick rocks. 

You are basing your trade on the premiss than Minny would ACCEPT Baze and TP. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Vol4ever said:

There is NOBODY on this team that is in the same universe as Butler talent wise.  There are 2 players on out entire roster other teams would want and that is Collins and Young.   

 

Problem is a lot of you will buy into whomever is thrown on the floor by the Hawks hook, line and sinker.  I want to win and win now but this franchise will still charge the same high prices to get into the game with NBDL players as a NBA champion will charge.

Tanking does not work unless you draft a generational talent.  

See . . you just brought up another point.  Both of us live outside of ATL.  You're about 1.5 - 2 hrs away.  I'm 4 -  4.5 hours away.   Both of us would like to go to these games and see the Hawks WIN, seeing that we're both probably paying $100 - $200 minimum in tickets and travel.

The last thing I want to do, is travel to see this team, when the likelihood of them losing by 15+ points is greater than them actually winning the game.  I'm not dropping $200 for "competitive effort", but hoping that they secretly lose the game to get a higher draft pick.

[JayBirdHawk]

15 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

If we choose to let him walk, we're still in rebuilding mode anyway, but with more money to throw at solid veteran free agents ( even if they're non All-Stars ) to surround Trae with.  

Hawks won't trade for him and CHOOSE to then let him walk (because they don't wanna max him) -  All that would be is dumping Baze and using Prince to do so.  What fresh hell thinking is this???

Blowing capspace on solid vet non All-Stars  = TreadMill and Capspace hell.

[AHF]

I have a very hard time seeing Butler being happy here.  We are building around young players and then presumably him if we deal for him.  He hated the young guys in Chicago and bailed.  He hated the young guys in Minnesota and bailed.  Is this the right FA to bank our future on that he will love the young guys here and won't bail?

I'd be willing to go for the talent here but skeptical of the personal fit.

[Sothron]

13 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

If that's the only reason he's staying, then he can kick rocks. 

You are basing your trade on the premiss than Minny would ACCEPT Baze and TP. 

If money was the only issue Butler would never leave Minnesota. They offered him the money. He said no. If he's turning down a coach he loves plus a young superstar and potential star on the roster...why would he stay here.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

So you are Saying Butler doesn't want to resign here but you are willing to give up assets for him to watch him sit out a year like he is threatening to do with Minnesota?   That doesn't make a lick of sense!

I'm saying that (1) Baze is NOT an asset . . . (2) Taurean MIGHT be an asset, but as of right now, he's a net negative on the court . . (3) Butler not re-signing only means that we have more money off the books and we can replace those supposed "assets" 

Question . . . how much are you willing to pay Prince in 2 years, if he improves?   Are you willing to match any offer, or at the very least, give him the same deal that we gave Baze?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

Yet you will not win championships in this league unless you have a generational talent. Out of the last 40 years, only the 2004 Pistons have won a championship by committee and without a generational talent.

Sixers had Julius

Bad Boy Pistons had Dumars and Thomas

Celtics had Ainge, Bird, McHale, Pierce, Garnett, and Allen

Lakers had Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy, Magic, Kobe, and Shaq

Rockets had Hakeem and Drexler

Bulls had Jordan and Pippen

Spurs had Duncan and Robinson - Parker and Ginoboli

Mavs had Dirk and Kidd

Heat had Shaq, LeBron, Wade, and Bosh

Cavs had LeBron

Warriors have Curry and Durant

 

I'd rather spend the next 15 years tanking for a superstar than waste another season on false hope.

But isn't that false hope as well?   Tanking for the next 15 years, hoping that you get a generational talent?  

Would you tank for the next 15 years to get a Karl Anthony-Towns?

 

[AHF]

@PSSSHHHRRR87 - Philly's championship was led by generational talent Moses Malone.  Julius was a supporting player on that team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

59 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I thought the question was: if you are building a team, the way the Hawks are now, who would you take.  I think every gm in the league would choose Embiid, Simmons, Kyrie, Kristaps, or Mitchell over Jimmy if you were just adding one to a team like the Hawks.   If for just age if nothing else.   It's hard to make the case that Jimmy's next 5 years are going to be better than any of those guys.   

Jimmy's next 5 years should be a buffer for Trae, to relieve most of the star pressure off of him.  Steph Curry wasn't given the reigns to the Warriors until Monta Ellis was traded.  Even then, the Warriors made sure to surround Steph with guys who could score the basketball at a fairly high clip, until Steph was truly ready to take over the team in Year 4.

 

http://www.82games.com/1718/1718MIN.HTM

The fact that he was this good on both sides of the ball, shows his true value.   And this is with that guy guarding the best wing on the team every night.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

45 minutes ago, AHF said:

Carmelo, Jefferson... come on.  Wrong names to prove your point because Melo proved his worth and Jefferson is totally marginalized in today's game.

I'm talking about 4 - 5 years ago, when Melo was still a very good scorer, and Jefferson was one of the top 5 scoring big men in the game.  When the topic of discussion came up for those guys, there was always some "flaw" found with them that wouldn't make them the "right fit".  A franchise that isn't a destination for top tier talent, really can't be picky about who they bring in.

When Jimmy Butler, a guy who was 3rd team All-NBA and 2nd team All-Defense last season ( which are two feats in the same year that Joe Johnson never did . . or any other Hawk since Dikembe Mutombo ), is talked down like he's just a decent player and not a top 20 talent, there's something really, really, wrong with that.

If people believe in Taurean, and want to give him a shot, that's cool.  No whining from them though, if he doesn't live up to his March - April 2017 level of play.

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Jimmy's next 5 years should be a buffer for Trae, to relieve most of the star pressure off of him.  Steph Curry wasn't given the reigns to the Warriors until Monta Ellis was traded.  Even then, the Warriors made sure to surround Steph with guys who could score the basketball at a fairly high clip, until Steph was truly ready to take over the team in Year 4.

 

http://www.82games.com/1718/1718MIN.HTM

The fact that he was this good on both sides of the ball, shows his true value.   And this is with that guy guarding the best wing on the team every night.

Jimmy made it two years in Chicago once he was placed in the role of team best player, vet and mentor before bailing.

He made it one year in the role of team best player, vet and mentor  in Minnesota before bailing.

But he'll make it 5 years in this role in Atlanta?  

 

This is my big question.  How long will he be willing to be here.  Because I think what it will cost to get him combined with the opportunity cost for our draft picks in the meantime could really set back our rebuild if it doesn't pan out.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I'm talking about 4 - 5 years ago, when Melo was still a very good scorer, and Jefferson was one of the top 5 scoring big men in the game.  When the topic of discussion came up for those guys, there was always some "flaw" found with them that wouldn't make them the "right fit".  A franchise that isn't a destination for top tier talent, really can't be picky about who they bring in.

When Jimmy Butler, a guy who was 3rd team All-NBA and 2nd team All-Defense last season ( which are two feats in the same year that Joe Johnson never did . . or any other Hawk since Dikembe Mutombo ), is talked down like he's just a decent player and not a top 20 talent, there's something really, really, wrong with that.

If people believe in Taurean, and want to give him a shot, that's cool.  No whining from them though, if he doesn't live up to his March - April 2017 level of play.

Melo was a selfish jerk 4-5 years ago who didn't want to play defense and whose teams stunk.  Thank goodness we didn't deal for him.

 

Jefferson's flaw has surfaced to be a huge issue and made him irrelevant in today's game.  Glad we didn't deal for him.

 

Butler doesn't have any red flags on the court.  It is all off the court red flags for him.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

53 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

If that's the only reason he's staying, then he can kick rocks. 

You are basing your trade on the premiss than Minny would ACCEPT Baze and TP. 

Correct.  

If they want the 2022 Thunder 1st round draft pick, give them that too.

 

I'm just wondering where we are going to get the building blocks to "championship talent" from, if we don't pull off some sort of coup in the draft, or in free agency, or with a trade?

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

Melo was a selfish jerk 4-5 years ago who didn't want to play defense and whose teams stunk.  Thank goodness we didn't deal for him.

 

Jefferson's flaw has surfaced to be a huge issue and made him irrelevant in today's game.  Glad we didn't deal for him.

 

Butler doesn't have any red flags on the court.  It is all off the court red flags for him.

Nah man . . . Melo was this guy.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I won't keep going round and round with this hypothetical.   It'll be curious to see who everyone lusts over next summer though.  Jimmy will probably end up in Miami or worse . . . Boston . . . with Ainge dealing Gordon Hayward.