Jimmy Butler

[AHF]

19 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Nah man . . . Melo was this guy.

 

Melo's teams winning records after the 2012-13 season:

2013-14 -17 wins dropping from 54 to 37 wins

2014-15 -20 wins dropping to 17 wins

2015-16 +15 wins up to 32 wins

2016-17 -1 win to 31 wins

 

Zero playoffs.

Zero defense played.

Zero cares given by Melo.

 

We didn't miss out on jack squat in not having Melo unless you like your teams a walking joke led by a "superstar" who just doesn't give a rip beyond getting his.

Melo was this guy:

[Vol4ever]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

See . . you just brought up another point.  Both of us live outside of ATL.  You're about 1.5 - 2 hrs away.  I'm 4 -  4.5 hours away.   Both of us would like to go to these games and see the Hawks WIN, seeing that we're both probably paying $100 - $200 minimum in tickets and travel.

The last thing I want to do, is travel to see this team, when the likelihood of them losing by 15+ points is greater than them actually winning the game.  I'm not dropping $200 for "competitive effort", but hoping that they secretly lose the game to get a higher draft pick.

I usually attend around 10 games a year for the last 30 years with the exception of inferior product on the court.   I did not attend last year or until a product is on the floor that is competitive.  

 

 

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I'm saying that (1) Baze is NOT an asset . . . (2) Taurean MIGHT be an asset, but as of right now, he's a net negative on the court . . (3) Butler not re-signing only means that we have more money off the books and we can replace those supposed "assets" 

Question . . . how much are you willing to pay Prince in 2 years, if he improves?   Are you willing to match any offer, or at the very least, give him the same deal that we gave Baze?

I'm confused...What are you trading to get Butler?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 minutes ago, Vol4ever said:

I usually attend around 10 games a year for the last 30 years with the exception of inferior product on the court.   I did not attend last year or until a product is on the floor that is competitive.  

 

 

I try to make 5 ( at least one a month ).

Last year, I only made it to 1.  And damn near didn't make it to that game, due to the Atlanta United crowd taking all of the parking downtown.  I saw 1/2 of the Bulls game, in which the Hawks did "competitively lose", but played not a lick of defense.  Taurean had 38 points though.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

I'm confused...What are you trading to get Butler?

The only "assets" we have to trade for Butler ( to make the money work )

Baze + Prince . . . if you want to throw in the 2022 pick, give them that too.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The only "assets" we have to trade for Butler ( to make the money work )

Baze + Prince . . . if you want to throw in the 2022 pick, give them that too.

Even if Minnesota would do that trade, you are giving Prince plus a 1st round pick away for nothing in return.  We probably still don't make the playoffs even if he agrees to play this year for the Hawks so what did you accomplish?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

Melo's teams winning records after the 2012-13 season:

2013-14 -17 wins dropping from 54 to 37 wins

2014-15 -20 wins dropping to 17 wins

2015-16 +15 wins up to 32 wins

2016-17 -1 win to 31 wins

 

Zero playoffs.

Zero defense played.

Zero cares given by Melo.

 

We didn't miss out on jack squat in not having Melo unless you like your teams a walking joke led by a "superstar" who just doesn't give a rip beyond getting his.

Melo was this guy:

 

My rebuttal to that:

 

 

I would just post the link, but copying and pasting the main contents of the link will be more dramatic.

Heck, I'll do both.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/6/28/15886082/phil-jackson-fired-trades-picks-transactions-knicks-president

 

2014-15

Signings: Shannon Brown (waived), Lamar Odom (waived), Jason Smith, Ricky Ledo (waived), Langston Galloway

Trades

• Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton to Dallas for Jose Calderon, Samuel Dalembert, Wayne Ellington, Shane Larkin, and two second-round picks (Cleanthony Early and Thanasis Antetokounmpo)
• Wayne Ellington and Jeremy Tyler to Sacramento for Quincy Acy and Travis Outlaw
• Travis Outlaw, 2019 second-round pick and swap rights on 2018 second-rounder to Philadelphia for Arnett Moultrie
• Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith to Cleveland for Lance Thomas (via OKC), Lou Amundson, Alex Kirk and Cavs’ 2019 second-round pick
• Pablo Prigioni to Houston for Alexey Shved, 2017 second-round pick (Ognjen Jaramaz) and 2019 second-round pick

Drafted: Cleanthony Early (No. 34) and Thanasis Antetokounmpo (No. 51)

2015-16

Signings: Derrick Williams (two years, $10 million), Arron Afflalo (two years, $16 million), Robin Lopez (four years, $54 million), Kevin Seraphin, Tony Wroten (never played), Jimmer Fredette (10-day contract)

Trades

• Tim Hardaway Jr. to Atlanta for No. 19 pick in 2015 (Jerian Grant)
• 2020 and 2021 second-round picks to Philadelphia for Willy Hernangomez
• Swap rights on 2019 second-round pick to Orlando for Kyle O’Quinn

Drafted: Kristaps Porzingis (No. 4)

2016-17

Signings: Joakim Noah (four years, $72 million), Courtney Lee (four years, $48 million), Lance Thomas (four years, $27 million), Brandon Jennings (one year, $5 million — waived midseason), Sasha Vujacic, Mindaugas Kuzminskas, Marshall Plumlee, Maurice Ndour, Ron Baker, Chasson Randle (midseason)

Trade: Jose Calderon, Jerian Grant, and Robin Lopez to Chicago for Derrick Rose and Justin Holiday

2017-18

• Drafted: Frank Ntilikina No. 8 in 2017, Damyean Dotson, No. 44 and Ognjen Jaramaz No. 58

 

FYI:  2013 - 2014 . . . Carmelo arguably had one of his best and most efficient years of his career.

• 27.4 ppg
• 8.1 rebs
• 3.1 asst
• 1.2 stls
• 45% FG
• 40% 3FG
• 85% FT
• 24.4 PER
• 56% TS
• .172 WS/48
• 3.6 BPM
• 4.2 VORP

 

2nd best player on that team?  Either JR Smith or Andrea Bargnani

Matter of fact, until Porzingis arrived, Bargnani was probably the best player he played with in NY in the years you listed.

Of course, the narrative is that:

(a) Carmelo was a ball hog

(b) Carmelo didn't make people better

 

Could it be that an inept front office didn't construct the right team around their superstar?  And in the season that they DID make the playoffs, they ended up firing the coach after 1 mediocre year ( when the above guy took over )?

 

Same year ( 2013 ), different season.  

 

 

The moral of the story?   If we even get a chance to be in the mix of acquiring a high level, but malcontent/unappreciated/unwanted player, we should definitely explore it, and submit an offer for that player.

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

23 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Even if Minnesota would do that trade, you are giving Prince plus a 1st round pick away for nothing in return.  We probably still don't make the playoffs even if he agrees to play this year for the Hawks so what did you accomplish?

If he didn't re-sign

• You get rid of Baze's contract 1 year early
• If Prince turns out to be a little better than he is right now, but not a borderline All-Star, you avoid paying him 70 - 100 million.
• You've ( hopefully ) protected Trae for at least a year, from trying to do it all, and 
• You have a ton of cap space
• You continue the rebuilding process

 

If he did re-sign

Acquiring Butler would possibly give you a better shot at getting another big time free agent, given this climate of All-NBA level players wanting to team up with each other.  The 2nd big name free agent will also allow Trae to grow even more, without all of the burden to perform at a high level.

[capstone21]

I agree about the talent that Butler brings ... I think he is one of the top two way players in the league

at the same time he makes 0 sense for this team and the assets it will cost to get him ... he will walk next year (Minny could offer him the max as well but he doesn't want to be there) and we will have lost a quality player(s) and draft pick(s).  

We are currently in the start over phase ... its when you develop guys ... he is in the compete phase of his career ... where he will want to play on a team that is going to try to compete.  

Coming here makes no sense for us and coming here makes no sense for him.  

 

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

My rebuttal to that:

 

 

I would just post the link, but copying and pasting the main contents of the link will be more dramatic.

Heck, I'll do both.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/6/28/15886082/phil-jackson-fired-trades-picks-transactions-knicks-president

 

2014-15

Signings: Shannon Brown (waived), Lamar Odom (waived), Jason Smith, Ricky Ledo (waived), Langston Galloway

Trades

• Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton to Dallas for Jose Calderon, Samuel Dalembert, Wayne Ellington, Shane Larkin, and two second-round picks (Cleanthony Early and Thanasis Antetokounmpo)
• Wayne Ellington and Jeremy Tyler to Sacramento for Quincy Acy and Travis Outlaw
• Travis Outlaw, 2019 second-round pick and swap rights on 2018 second-rounder to Philadelphia for Arnett Moultrie
• Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith to Cleveland for Lance Thomas (via OKC), Lou Amundson, Alex Kirk and Cavs’ 2019 second-round pick
• Pablo Prigioni to Houston for Alexey Shved, 2017 second-round pick (Ognjen Jaramaz) and 2019 second-round pick

Drafted: Cleanthony Early (No. 34) and Thanasis Antetokounmpo (No. 51)

2015-16

Signings: Derrick Williams (two years, $10 million), Arron Afflalo (two years, $16 million), Robin Lopez (four years, $54 million), Kevin Seraphin, Tony Wroten (never played), Jimmer Fredette (10-day contract)

Trades

• Tim Hardaway Jr. to Atlanta for No. 19 pick in 2015 (Jerian Grant)
• 2020 and 2021 second-round picks to Philadelphia for Willy Hernangomez
• Swap rights on 2019 second-round pick to Orlando for Kyle O’Quinn

Drafted: Kristaps Porzingis (No. 4)

2016-17

Signings: Joakim Noah (four years, $72 million), Courtney Lee (four years, $48 million), Lance Thomas (four years, $27 million), Brandon Jennings (one year, $5 million — waived midseason), Sasha Vujacic, Mindaugas Kuzminskas, Marshall Plumlee, Maurice Ndour, Ron Baker, Chasson Randle (midseason)

Trade: Jose Calderon, Jerian Grant, and Robin Lopez to Chicago for Derrick Rose and Justin Holiday

2017-18

• Drafted: Frank Ntilikina No. 8 in 2017, Damyean Dotson, No. 44 and Ognjen Jaramaz No. 58

 

FYI:  2013 - 2014 . . . Carmelo arguably had one of his best and most efficient years of his career.

• 27.4 ppg
• 8.1 rebs
• 3.1 asst
• 1.2 stls
• 45% FG
• 40% 3FG
• 85% FT
• 24.4 PER
• 56% TS
• .172 WS/48
• 3.6 BPM
• 4.2 VORP

 

2nd best player on that team?  Either JR Smith or Andrea Bargnani

Matter of fact, until Porzingis arrived, Bargnani was probably the best player he played with in NY in the years you listed.

Of course, the narrative is that:

(a) Carmelo was a ball hog

(b) Carmelo didn't make people better

 

Could it be that an inept front office didn't construct the right team around their superstar?  And in the season that they DID make the playoffs, they ended up firing the coach after 1 mediocre year ( when the above guy took over )?

 

Same year ( 2013 ), different season.  

 

 

The moral of the story?   If we even get a chance to be in the mix of acquiring a high level, but malcontent/unappreciated/unwanted player, we should definitely explore it, and submit an offer for that player.

 

 

He had a great team around him in Denver and followed his ego into New York by forcing a trade out of there.  And what did he win in Denver?  Jack and $*** and jack left town.  And that was more than he won in New York.  And when he joined the league MVP and Paul George in OKC?  He was actually an impediment to winning because he wanted to his shots and wouldn't just try to fit in as the third option despite being clearly the 3rd best player.

(FWIW - I don't disagree that New York had serious management problems under Phil Jackson but Melo has never been about team, has never been about defense, and has never won much of anything for that reason.  In contrast, his play in the Olympics actually contributed to team success because he put his ego aside and focused on things other than shooting constantly.)

 

We missed nothing by not selling our team out to trade for Melo.  He has led his teams to nothing but misery over the last 5 years.

[Peoriabird]

9 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

If he didn't re-sign

• You get rid of Baze's contract 1 year early
• If Prince turns out to be a little better than he is right now, but not a borderline All-Star, you avoid paying him 70 - 100 million.
• You've ( hopefully ) protected Trae for at least a year, from trying to do it all, and 
• You have a ton of cap space
• You continue the rebuilding process

 

Wait what?  If we don't resign him then we don't have to pay Prince? Dude! We don't have to resign Prince regardless of whether we trade him for Butler.  We also can trade him for someone else.  Terrible argument!  We have a ton of cap space with Prince next summer so you could offer him the max next summer without trading anyone. So in your world, we trade for Butler and give Prince away and if he doesn't resign, we continue rebuilding even though Price was part of the building process?  I need a drink trying to follow your logic.

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, capstone21 said:

I agree about the talent that Butler brings ... I think he is one of the top two way players in the league

at the same time he makes 0 sense for this team and the assets it will cost to get him ... he will walk next year (Minny could offer him the max as well but he doesn't want to be there) and we will have lost a quality player(s) and draft pick(s).  

We are currently in the start over phase ... its when you develop guys ... he is in the compete phase of his career ... where he will want to play on a team that is going to try to compete.  

Coming here makes no sense for us and coming here makes no sense for him.  

 

Seems like a real mismatch on timeline and he has bailed on two teams where he was asked to mentor young players.  Seems like a huge red flag risk to give up good assets and hope he doesn't do it a third time.  If I were the GM, he would have to sell me on wanting to be here and being ready to embrace his teammates.

[capstone21]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

Seems like a real mismatch on timeline and he has bailed on two teams where he was asked to mentor young players.  Seems like a huge red flag risk to give up good assets and hope he doesn't do it a third time.  If I were the GM, he would have to sell me on wanting to be here and being ready to embrace his teammates.

he makes sense for a team that is playoff bound or trying to make the playoffs (like Minny was last year).  He could be that guy that can help put a team over the top or take them to the next level.  Going to a developing team wastes his prime years which he is in right now.

[benhillboy]

I’m the biggest Butler proponent on board  but he is a hard fit anywhere, let alone here.  Lloyd Pierce doesn’t want those problems.  

I think he wants to be a full-time 2 guard between a Point and SF who are both plus defenders (Teague indifferent, Wiggins inconsistent) along with having more boisterous personalities in the locker room so he isn’t looked at as the sole leader (KAT seems pretty nice and mild-mannered). He’s looking for a Celtics-type situation but they’re set at the wing last I checked.  

The diva-esque behavior is definately in poor taste but I swear by his game and agree with his fear of wasting years off his career knowing he grinds harder than most players.

[JayBirdHawk]

13 hours ago, benhillboy said:

I’m the biggest Butler proponent on board  but he is a hard fit anywhere, let alone here.  Lloyd Pierce doesn’t want those problems.  

I think he wants to be a full-time 2 guard between a Point and SF who are both plus defenders (Teague indifferent, Wiggins inconsistent) along with having more boisterous personalities in the locker room so he isn’t looked at as the sole leader (KAT seems pretty nice and mild-mannered). He’s looking for a Celtics-type situation but they’re set at the wing last I checked.  

The diva-esque behavior is definately in poor taste but I swear by his game and agree with his fear of wasting years off his career knowing he grinds harder than most players.

But yet he choose the Knicks, Nets and Clipps as teams he would like to be traded to? Doesn't compute.

 

[Spud2nique]

22 hours ago, kg01 said:

I don't like CJ McCollum

? uh huh... 

[kg01]

13 hours ago, benhillboy said:

I’m the biggest Butler proponent on board  but he is a hard fit anywhere, let alone here.  Lloyd Pierce doesn’t want those problems.  

I think he wants to be a full-time 2 guard between a Point and SF who are both plus defenders (Teague indifferent, Wiggins inconsistent) along with having more boisterous personalities in the locker room so he isn’t looked at as the sole leader (KAT seems pretty nice and mild-mannered). He’s looking for a Celtics-type situation but they’re set at the wing last I checked.  

The diva-esque behavior is definately in poor taste but I swear by his game and agree with his fear of wasting years off his career knowing he grinds harder than most players.

Jimi Butler embodied everything that's good about sports ... at first.  Hardscrabble beginnings, homeless at some point IIRC.  Last pick of 1st round, built himself into an all-star caliber player.

But something went awry along the way.  Now he's Hollywood Jimi.  Hanging out with stars.  Clearly reads his own press.

Now he's become everything that's bad about sports.  Talented guy but now his ego outweighs his game.

You claim he's right to not want to "waste a year of his career" yet he wants to play for the Nets or Clippers?

Nah, he's no longer about winning.  He's about the glitz and glamour those cities bring.

Yes, he plays hard.  Plays both ends. All that.  Unfortunately, that dual nature apparently also leads him to being a poor leader.  Not good around young guys.  How about, instead of calling Wiggins out publicly, you actually encourage him to work with you?  See how much work you put in.  If he refuses, try again.  That's your teammate, after all.  Him getting better, directly helps you.

Nah, Jimi ain't got time fo' dat.  Trade me.

Obtw, Jimi's gettin' old, wants over $30mil per and is an injury risk (as all Thibs former guys are).

#EZPassLane

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

But isn't that false hope as well?   Tanking for the next 15 years, hoping that you get a generational talent?  

Would you tank for the next 15 years to get a Karl Anthony-Towns?

 

 

No, because the majority of the time, these generational talents are drafted. We aren’t LA or Boston where guys actually want to sign here and will sign with a bad team to be here like LBJ did with the Lakers. We have to build our team through developing draft picks and trades. I’ll take 1 superstar out of the next 15 drafts for the Hawks than to root on another second-round exit just because fans believe staying competitive is the way to go. Rooting on a tanking franchise is hard, but rooting on a competitive team with a low ceiling is just a placebo and gives fans nothing but a “feel good” feeling.

[macdaddy]

15 hours ago, benhillboy said:

I’m the biggest Butler proponent on board  but he is a hard fit anywhere, let alone here.  Lloyd Pierce doesn’t want those problems.  

I think he wants to be a full-time 2 guard between a Point and SF who are both plus defenders (Teague indifferent, Wiggins inconsistent) along with having more boisterous personalities in the locker room so he isn’t looked at as the sole leader (KAT seems pretty nice and mild-mannered). He’s looking for a Celtics-type situation but they’re set at the wing last I checked.  

The diva-esque behavior is definately in poor taste but I swear by his game and agree with his fear of wasting years off his career knowing he grinds harder than most players.

This exactly.   He knows where he is in his career.  But as far as the crummy teams he chose it's because he's not ring chasing yet.  He just wants to be somewhere that he thinks has a chance and plays the right way.  Sounds like he wants Miami now which makes sense.   He's a Miami type player.   The hard part for Minny is he's basically saying they've banked on guys who won't get them anywhere.   That's pretty damning.  

Let's face it.  He had some rough times in Minny:

 

[AHF]

30 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

This exactly.   He knows where he is in his career.  But as far as the crummy teams he chose it's because he's not ring chasing yet.  He just wants to be somewhere that he thinks has a chance and plays the right way.  Sounds like he wants Miami now which makes sense.   He's a Miami type player.   The hard part for Minny is he's basically saying they've banked on guys who won't get them anywhere.   That's pretty damning.  

Let's face it.  He had some rough times in Minny:

 

Miami seems like a good fit.  For Minny, it is tough to read what he is truly saying -- whether it is that he hates the young guys, doesn't believe in their talent, wants to be the #1 guy, etc.  It isn't good for Minnesota regardless.