Talent keeping??

[Diesel]

Congratulations to Bud and his team's hot start.

Does that suggest that we didn't keep enough talent here in Atlanta??

[ShooterSays]

It suggests that Ferry was an idiot for letting Milwaukee take Giannis 1 pick before us.

[KB21]

45 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Congratulations to Bud and his team's hot start.

Does that suggest that we didn't keep enough talent here in Atlanta??

Yes.  Bud's Bucks have the highest SRS in the Eastern Conference to this point, but I always anticipated that Bud would have Milwaukee as at worst the 3 seed in the East.  Bud has turned Eric Bledsoe into an effective player.  He's just a fantastic coach.  The best in the Eastern Conference.  

[turnermx]

No, we didn't have the talent to keep. We didn't have a player Giannis caliper and still do not, Trae is the best player we have drafted in a long time so that's a start.

 

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[Lurker]

I can't believe I'm about to beat this dead horse again but here goes...

Because of the way Carroll and Millsap's contracts were worked, there was no way the Hawks were retaining both after the magical 14/15 season. Since they were two year and not three year contracts (and I may be foggy on this now) they couldn't be signed under bird, so one or the other was 100% gone. There was nothing stopping it.

And so that was the end. 15/16 was still a good team but if that NBA rule with the cap wasn't like that, I suppose you could retain Carroll and instead of being good, being great that year, and if you retain Horford, being great the next year. In 17/18, cracks in the armor would have likely still shown with how things roll down the hill naturally though.

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, turnermx said:

No, we didn't have the talent to keep. We didn't have a player Giannis caliper and still do not, Trae is the best player we have drafted in a long time so that's a start.

 

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With the talent we had, we were the best in the East.  Then we watched the talent go away... piece by piece.   I know we should have done something to trade up to get Greek Freak but we had Lucas and Dennis and people were happy. 

 

[AHF]

8 hours ago, Lurker said:

I can't believe I'm about to beat this dead horse again but here goes...

Because of the way Carroll and Millsap's contracts were worked, there was no way the Hawks were retaining both after the magical 14/15 season. Since they were two year and not three year contracts (and I may be foggy on this now) they couldn't be signed under bird, so one or the other was 100% gone. There was nothing stopping it.

And so that was the end. 15/16 was still a good team but if that NBA rule with the cap wasn't like that, I suppose you could retain Carroll and instead of being good, being great that year, and if you retain Horford, being great the next year. In 17/18, cracks in the armor would have likely still shown with how things roll down the hill naturally though.

Lurker is correct that the team did not have the money to satisfy the pay demands of that team.  I also question whether they would have ever contended.  They got swept in the ECF* and weren’t at all special** other than over a magical two month window.  

* We had injuries but Cleveland arguably had better talent hurt than we did.

** We weren’t bad - just a run of the mill lower seed playoff team other than those two months.

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Lurker is correct that the team did not have the money to satisfy the pay demands of that team.  I also question whether they would have ever contended.  They got swept in the ECF* and weren’t at all special** other than over a magical two month window.  

* We had injuries but Cleveland arguably had better talent hurt than we did.

** We weren’t bad - just a run of the mill lower seed playoff team other than those two months.

In those kind of cases, while we were winning, we should have looked to make a good deal.   Before we got to the place where it's the offseason and we have to choose.   But that's  dead horse.   Point is in all the time we had Bud, we never sought to bring in more talent.   We just tried to keep our talent and picks.  That's why we were never elite. 

 

[Vol4ever]

Cheap ownership and bad management.  

[JayBirdHawk]

8 hours ago, Lurker said:

I can't believe I'm about to beat this dead horse again but here goes...

Because of the way Carroll and Millsap's contracts were worked, there was no way the Hawks were retaining both after the magical 14/15 season. Since they were two year and not three year contracts (and I may be foggy on this now) they couldn't be signed under bird, so one or the other was 100% gone. There was nothing stopping it.

And so that was the end. 15/16 was still a good team but if that NBA rule with the cap wasn't like that, I suppose you could retain Carroll and instead of being good, being great that year, and if you retain Horford, being great the next year. In 17/18, cracks in the armor would have likely still shown with how things roll down the hill naturally though.

This is correct, keep beating that dead horse.

We had a kit of parts that were a well oil machined that REQUIRED all the parts to work as a collective whole.  

Unfortunately, take one part out the rest weren't talented enough or couldn't raise their individual play to overcome that. Milwaukee has THAT guy, so when a play breaks down he can make something happen for himself or somebody else.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

In those kind of cases, while we were winning, we should have looked to make a good deal.   Before we got to the place where it's the offseason and we have to choose.   But that's  dead horse.   Point is in all the time we had Bud, we never sought to bring in more talent.   We just tried to keep our talent and picks.  That's why we were never elite. 

 

Let's stroll through memory lane:

Bud took over after the Ferry debacle.

The team went on a miraculous run to 60.

At the trade deadline Bud traded the corpse of former Ferry pick Adrien Payne to Minny for a lottery protected pick (now that pick is Kevin Huerter)

At what point during that season was he to make a trade and who or what to trade and for whom.

We weren't trading any starters. The rest? 

Thabo had a broken foot, Dennis and Moose were 2nd year players, Mike Scott, Shelvin, Pero - what are you getting for those guys. Who was available to help?

 

 

[mcleitsy]

Yeah...this is all obvious. Giannis > Any player the Hawks had under Bud. Bucks also have a lot of talent. They've been the victim of some of the worst coaching in the league. Bud is a huge step up.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, mcleitsy said:

Yeah...this is all obvious. Giannis > Any player the Hawks had under Bud. Bucks also have a lot of talent. They've been the victim of some of the worst coaching in the league. Bud is a huge step up.

This. Bud is a good tactician but he is a bitch ass quitter. 

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

This. Bud is a good tactician but he is a bitch ass quitter. 

The Hawks were the quitters.  It is unnatural to expect a quality coach to lose on purpose.

[Watchman]

12 hours ago, Lurker said:

I can't believe I'm about to beat this dead horse again but here goes...

Because of the way Carroll and Millsap's contracts were worked, there was no way the Hawks were retaining both after the magical 14/15 season. Since they were two year and not three year contracts (and I may be foggy on this now) they couldn't be signed under bird, so one or the other was 100% gone. There was nothing stopping it.

And so that was the end. 15/16 was still a good team but if that NBA rule with the cap wasn't like that, I suppose you could retain Carroll and instead of being good, being great that year, and if you retain Horford, being great the next year. In 17/18, cracks in the armor would have likely still shown with how things roll down the hill naturally though.

I guess you refuse to believe what we were told about Millsap and Carroll refusing longer contracts.  Ok.  It's your choice.

[Gray Mule]

When your head is rubbing the payroll ceiling and the owners will not / can not spend scads of money, you have a problem.  Hawks were 60 wins good!  Everyone, I'm sure, wanted a raise.  How could we?  We couldn't.  Others stepped in and we were torn asunder.  Been going down ever since.

Right now, the Hawks are at the top of the payroll.  However, we have a lot of dead salary coming off at the end of the season.  Raises to those deserving and with $$$$ left to sign a free agent or two!

Can't spend what you don't have and can't keep players that want to leave.  If we can survive this season, we should be in very good shape.  Let's hope so.

GO ATL HAWKS !!

Make some free throws!!

[JayBirdHawk]

9 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

When your head is rubbing the payroll ceiling and the owners will not / can not spend scads of money, you have a problem.  Hawks were 60 wins good!  Everyone, I'm sure, wanted a raise.  How could we?  We couldn't.  Others stepped in and we were torn asunder.  Been going down ever since.

Right now, the Hawks are at the top of the payroll.  However, we have a lot of dead salary coming off at the end of the season.  Raises to those deserving and with $$$$ left to sign a free agent or two!

Can't spend what you don't have and can't keep players that want to leave.  If we can survive this season, we should be in very good shape.  Let's hope so.

GO ATL HAWKS !!

Make some free throws!!

 Love, love the last line.

[turnermx]

 Love, love the last line.

[emoji4][emoji4][emoji4]

 

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[kg01]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

This. Bud is a good tactician but he is a bitch ass quitter. 

Basically.  Dude made a mess then punk'd out when it came time to clean it up.

Pretty much dumped kool-aid all over the kitchen floor then got mad that the floor was sticky afterwards.

2 hours ago, Watchman said:

I guess you refuse to believe what we were told about Millsap and Carroll refusing longer contracts.  Ok.  It's your choice.

What does that even mean?  At the end of the day, that team was never going to be maintained long-term.  And, because this is a cap-driven league, it never should have been kept together anyway.

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Basically.  Dude made a mess then punk'd out when it came time to clean it up.

Pretty much dumped kool-aid all over the kitchen floor then got mad that the floor was sticky afterwards.

What does that even mean?  At the end of the day, that team was never going to be maintained long-term.  And, because this is a cap-driven league, it never should have been kept together anyway.

What does your question mean?  Lurker complained about Ferry not giving 3 year contracts to Millsap and Carroll.  I told him that we were told longer contracts were offered to them, but the players refused them.